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An insidious, monstrous criminal atrocity has been committed against our country. There's now little doubt that this barbaric act was committed by fanatical Muslims as part of a jihad against the 'Great Satan' America. In the aftermath, we are treated to platitudinous and largely unnecessary calls for Americans to exercise 'restraint' and not take out our anger against other Americans who happen to be of the same religious extraction as the maniacs who perpetrated this act. These calls for restraint could be made unnecessary if American Muslims would simply do the following...
Convene a very public, nationally televised 'town hall' meeting of Muslim clerics and high-ranking officials with in their communities around the country. Within this public forum, allow presenter after presenter to state unequivocably that they:
1. Decry the dastardly attack on the World Trade Centers in no uncertain terms.
2. Declare to be false and pernicious the notion that a murderous, suicidal death leads one's soul to heaven. State in no uncertain terms that this teaching is contrary to true Islam.
3. Renounce the use of terroist violence to achieve political ends, and call for ALL foreign governments to do the same.
4. State publicly that they support the right of the United States to wage war against those nations and groups which harbor and abet terrorism whether they be Muslim or otherwise.
5. Put forth a dire warning to the terrorist cells that may be in their midst that Muslim-Americans will not think twice about turning these perfidious scoundrels over to the US government.
6. Mention that any public celebration of these attacks by Muslim-Americans is a deplorable act which harms not only the Muslim community, but America as a whole.
What I don't want to hear in relation to this is one single word about:
1. How this would never have happened if the US didn't support Israel.
2. How our 'imperialist' oppression of Arab nations brought on this attack.
3. Any kind of justification for terrorist barbarism.
Individual statements along these lines have surfaced here and there, but until the Muslim community as a whole does this in a very public fashion, I will have to view them with some suspicion. The mere fact that we haven't seen more of these kinds of statements indicates to me (and I hope I'm wrong on this) that there is decent amount of clandestine approval of the attack within the Muslim-American community...
1 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:34:09 PDT by Antoninus
BEST POST I've seen this week...BUMP!
2 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:40:28 PDT by NewLand
I must say, it would be welcomed - especially if it is not combined in any way with the last 3 items you list.
I'm not convinced, however, that the Muslim community can agree on #2 in your first set of 6. While there is scripture to suggest that Mohammedism would rule out suicide, others of their scriptures suggest that anything necessary to rid the world of infidel dogs is acceptable.
3 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:42:15 PDT by anniegetyourgun
Wouldn't it be simpler to make them sign loyalty oaths?
4 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:43:15 PDT by NovemberCharlie
Another suggestion-- raise your own regiment like the Japanese-Americans did in 1942 to fight for your country. This was the most decorated regiment in World War II and performed with distinction in Italy. The 142nd's bravery and patriotism led to an early closing of the notorious relocation camps which, themselves, were engineered by a LIBERAL coalition of FDR and Earl Warren, then California's attorney general.
5 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:45:30 PDT by Vigilanteman
Bumping this! But really you wouldn't think they'd have to be told to do this. I'm not sure all that many were opposed to the would-be outcome.
6 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:46:14 PDT by FITZ
Don't hold your breath.
7 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:47:18 PDT by P-Marlowe
BINGO!!
I am an observant Catholic, and I therefore oppose abortion. But when an abortion doctor is shot, do you think I would get positive media attention if I made statements like "this wouldn't happen if he didn't perform abortions?"
It's nut-cutting time at the Mosque. Decent Moslems better step forward right now and stand with the USA to kill every last terror organization and terror-sponsoring state, and not hide behind the Islamic brotherhood. It may not be fair, but that's the way it is.
8 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:48:15 PDT by SEA
Wouldn't it be simpler to make them sign loyalty oaths?
Nope. I'm more interested in the PUBLIC nature of such an event. No oaths are involved. They should just be speaking from the heart that which they truly feel (at least what we are told they feel by the media...)
9 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:48:40 PDT by Antoninus
Here, here, Antoninus. I've heard enough of this "we're victims" crap. Time to prove that they are indeed Americans, in which case we will embrace them and protect them as brothers - otherwise expect our wrath.
10 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:48:46 PDT by bootyist-monk
Another suggestion-- raise your own regiment like the Japanese-Americans did in 1942 to fight for your country.
I think that's a fantastic idea. It could be #7, no doubt.
11 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:49:39 PDT by Antoninus
I have yet to hear a single Muslim unequivocally denounce the WTC attack. Not one. They always will say "yet it is bad, but Israel..." "Yes, but America..." It is always "yes, but..."
12 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:52:37 PDT by ambrose
Excellent idea. I've been saying, since the 11th, that a very public renunciation of the specific horrors as well as a general show of support for US interests would do a great deal. I, too, think the calls for restraint are, so far, unnecessary.
13 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:54:05 PDT by bluebeowulf
I supervise a Muslim Pakistani at work who would eagerly sign up for this...
He, and my Korean born wife, are probably far more cognizant of the freedoms afforded by this country than the vast majority of native born, "Americans." (sometimesthetruthhurts...)
14 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:54:26 PDT by Joe 6-pack
The U.S. should more completely and utterly and totally identify itself with Israel. Let it be so fully demonstrated that the entire world cannot pretend to be unaware of it. Let the U.S. and Israel be as ONE.
Then immediately free the great hero Jonathan Pollard as a demonstration of America's solidarity with the greatest ally in all of recorded history.
Provide all and complete intelligence gathered without restriction by our FBI, CIA, NSA, et al to the Mossad.
Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever. If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
Up our already substantial aid in both financial and military segments by as much as Israel may require, without limitation.
Whatever is good for Israel is good for America.
Let's be clear the greatest nation on earth is not America, obviously, but Israel since it is the Nation of God.
The Jewish people are the Chosen People, the apple of God's eye.
We are content to serve its great purpose.
15 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:54:35 PDT by Malachi
Quite right! Here in Ohio the most vocal supporters of Islam have been Christians. I've heard plenty of ministers explaining that the terrorists do not represent the Islamic faith, but I haven't heard too many Muslims say it. I haven't heard ANY of their leaders say it.
I have heard them express their concerns about the potential for violence being directed at THEM. I haven't heard them express any concern re future attacks against non Muslims.
I'm beginning to think that this notion that the terrorists don't represent the mainstream of Islam is false...
16 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:58:28 PDT by Skip Ripley
Bump! What really gets me are all the lies circulating about the Koran, that it's a loving book, something akin to the New Testament,knowing full well that most non-muslims won't take the time to check it out for themselves.
17 Posted on 09/19/2001 20:59:09 PDT by goodieD
I am an observant Catholic, and I therefore oppose abortion. But when an abortion doctor is shot, do you think I would get positive media attention if I made statements like "this wouldn't happen if he didn't perform abortions?"
A brilliant point. Similar equivocation from muslims and the far left should be similarly intolerable!
19 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:01:52 PDT by Antoninus
Then immediately free the great hero Jonathan Pollard as a demonstration of America's solidarity with the greatest ally in all of recorded history. Provide all and complete intelligence gathered without restriction by our FBI, CIA, NSA, et al to the Mossad. Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever. If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
This tragedy has brought a number of Jew-haters out into the open.
20 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:05:50 PDT by Roscoe
Your vision can't be appreciated more, but... it's based totally upon Christian values and notions.
Don't forget, that in Muslims' mind the world is divided in two parts: one is "The land of Islam", another "the land of War", or of infidels. The state of war with the infidels thus is constant, and so a Muslim doesn't owe his enemy either fair play, or sincerity, or anything. And they'll be ready to sacrifise not only themselves, but their own too, for the final victory over the Satan dogs. Look on Palies' children pushed with the stones against rifles. And do you think the murderers of 5 thousand people in WTC and the Pentagon didn't guess that a lot of Muslims would be among their victims? You can have all the public statements of loyalty, or written and signed oaths... so what? Expect to be stabbed in the back allright.21 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:06:54 PDT by Neophyte
I like your post. My wife and I had a very similar conversation this evening. I agree that some public comments would go a long way. As you know, the FBI has a doctor in custody who may be deeply involved in the plot. A doctor, someone's coworker and neighbor, a person entrusted with health and well being of many people.
The terrorists used the "Melting Pot" to attack our nation. Obviously there are those here in pursuit of dreams, but if they don't speak up, how can we know who they are?
22 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:09:12 PDT by Sooner
You seem to have a nice grasp on our situation here in the US of A. Of course, we will take it one step at a time and eventually own that country. But then who knows what the Muslims will do, they are SNEAKY(not).
I think they are all little scared mice. Who need a better home with a higher standard of living. Personally I can find better things to do with my time besides managing a Quickey Mart.
Let them say they are sorry, imprison the leader, take the country, everyones happy =)
Eventually things will pass from generations mind and everyone will strive agian for unity. UNITY is key!
23 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:11:50 PDT by Fleck78
Great post. I would add, that they should root out the terrorists in their own communities!
24 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:13:15 PDT by TheLion
You can have all the public statements of loyalty, or written and signed oaths... so what? Expect to be stabbed in the back allright.
All I can say to this is you mistake the strategy of the public statement...
25 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:13:37 PDT by Antoninus
See point #5 in the original post...
26 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:14:26 PDT by Antoninus
Let's be clear: we Americans will annihilate the terrorist Islamism cells and likely kill a lot of innocents in the doing, such is the nature of war, but we must stop this radical faction of Islam now or our Republic will be no more; if the Islamic leadership doesn't stop the extremists and root out this satanic cancer in Islam, we will do it. That should have been enough incentive for these leaders of Islam to get to work, but it doesn't appear so, because they hate Israel also and so much they will accept the killing of innocent individuals. That worries my heart greatly, but it will not remove my resolve to annihilate this extremist sect of Islam in a war against it. The leaders of Islam have been warned. They can stop these fanatics, unless they agree with them!
27 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:19:10 PDT by MHGinTN
"largely unnecessary calls"
Because the calls are ineffective at stoping some attacks anyways?
28 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:20:39 PDT by boston_liberty
I think they are all little scared mice.
I do wonder if they may be hesitant as to how far they stick their neck out... thinking that one of bin Laden's folks might come knocking on their door right here in the good ole USA to make them an offer they can't refuse.
29 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:25:34 PDT by HiTech RedNeck
Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever. If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
I don't know that I'd agree with all you wrote, but I'm beginning to wonder now if we hadn't made so sure Israel couldn't spy in the US if thousands of Americans might still be alive. Our own government wasn't in there protecting us from these bloody killers, it would have been nice if someone was. Not spying on US citizens but on the foreigners we let in who plan to destroy us.
30 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:25:48 PDT by FITZ
Because the calls are ineffective at stoping some attacks anyways?
No, because the 'attacks' are few and far-between. Most of the ones reported that I've heard included nothing more than verbal confrontations. In my opinion, the restraint has been little short of amazing considering the events.
31 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:25:52 PDT by Antoninus
32 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:28:54 PDT by Blade
I think what has been lost in the last 8 years of the political "dog & pony" show is some clairity.
1. America was founded One nation under GOD.
2.Our founding fathers embraced the concept that this is a Christian Nation...BUT, that all religions are welcome and tolerated.
3. As long as a persons religion doesn't conflict with our Constitution and civil rights...its tolerated.
4. America has opened it's doors to the world. People who embrace democracy and freedom are welcome here, and encouraged to become citizens.
There is alot of things I don't agree with in this country...but its a free country. I don't like groups of minorites hanging around street cornors in every major city begging for hand outs while the rest of America has to work and pay taxes. I don't like career welfare families, or abortion, or homosexuals. Therein lies the beauty of the plan. They have the freedom to do what they choose, and I the freedom not to like it.
This is America, even with its "social warts", and corrupt politicans, its still the best country on earth.
Middle east people who come here for freedom are entitled to worship Allah, or whatever. They have every right ANY other citizen has...BUT, to have rights in this country they should be a citizen first.
Don't hang around for years while still attached to your old homeland. Don't take the bounty of America, and then spit in her face. Don't spend years here, getting an education, going to topless bars and sampling the fruit of American womanhood...and then go and highjack our airplanes and complain how immoral we are.
In America there is only room for 2 kinds of people...American citizens, and those waiting to be American citizens. Everyone else is either a trespasser, a visitor, or a terrorist.
Any Middle Eastern person who embraces our culture, learns to speak ou language, and will put no other loyalty above that to America...SHOULD BE WELCOME.
You want to come here and bad mouth us, refuse to assimulate into our culture, refuse to learn english, or exhibit a hatred for American citizens...get out, or get dead.
Its really just that simple, there is no longer any free ride for radicals or extremists. When the body bags start coming home from the next conflict, the police won't be able to stop the violence against Ragheads rejoicing in the streets of New Jersey.
IMHO, if you come to America...you should leave your birth country behind. Either your ready to become one of us...or stay the hell out. And, that goes for that "African American" crap too as far as I'm concerned.
One nation, one culture, one set of colors....Red White & Blue.
PS. did anyone catch the big Mexican Flags being waved at the candle ligh vigil in New York the other night...I was outraged. ONLY ONE COUNTRIES FLAG SHOULD EVER BE PERMITTED TO FLY IN THE USA...OUR FLAG !!!!!.
33 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:30:52 PDT by Thorn11cav
"I'm beginning to think that this notion that the terrorists don't represent the mainstream of Islam is false... "
You are absolutely right. As a group, they are the most self-centered, their way or no way people I've ever encountered. Every time I, as a woman, have had to deal with them in their capacity as convenience store clerks - we're talking 20-30 times at least, they have all but spat on me. Slamming the change down on the counter and so on. All of my female friends and co-workers are treated the same way. When we complain about this, our husbands and boyfriends all say things like, "Oh, I don't think they're so bad." Of course not - when they deal with a man. The point is, they have no intention of assimilating - just using this country as a giant ATM machine.
One more time - we are infidels and so not quite human - their writings that forbid murder or mistreatment refer to the murder of each other. Don't believe the Disney version they hand out for the tourists. Why do you think they cause so much trouble everywhere they go? They clash with all other religions and cultures.
34 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:31:03 PDT by Sandur
American Muslims don't need your patronizing advice.
I mean, listen to yourselves. "Loyalty oaths"?
yeeeesh.
35 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:31:20 PDT by KenPhil
Congressman David Dryer just said on Fox News that there would be no halt to immigration that we would lose our place as a world leader.
The plan is to do a check before allowing them into the country and if anyone is shady they will be tracked by human intelligence, in other words spied on. It was pointed out that once they enter the country they have the same rights as every other citizen not to be spied on, Congressman Dryer's answer was, "well that will have to be changed". Changed to what? All citizens being spied on so as to be sensitive to new arrivals, and not discriminate against them?
The unfortunate thing is that the F.B.I. have so far picked up a black muslim terrorist, and two from S. America, we don't even know who we are looking at anymore. There are also members of radical Islam in Indonesia and the Spice Islands.
Obviously, if people do not address this with their congressmen, in very strong and no uncertain terms, then we will face continued terrorism. I would suggest making this a huge issue in 2002, and remove David Dryer and those of his mindset from office.
David Dryer brought out the old saw about how we are a nation of immigrants. Well pal, I am not an immigrant, no one in my family has been an immigrant since my g-grandfather lost two sons in the American Revolution where they fought for MY future. And I feel an obligation to their shed blood not to allow MY future and that of my heirs to be played fast and loose with.
36 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:31:30 PDT by MissAmericanPie
Most of the ones reported that I've heard included nothing more than verbal confrontations.
You're right, the other night on NPR an Arab woman called in gloating how we deserved what we got for being on Israel's side and then she went on to whine about her friends now felt like they were being watched and they thought people were looking at them funny now. And since this one made it a point to call NPR and complain about such insignicant events, it leads me to believe real harassment is very few and far between.
37 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:33:14 PDT by FITZ
I agree whole heartedly.
38 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:33:17 PDT by Sooner
You just haven't been listening.
39 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:34:26 PDT by Doctor Stochastic
Wouldn't it be easier just to send the non-citizens home? Are they really necessary for our society to function?
40 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:34:30 PDT by Ol'Grey Head
"Loyalty oaths"?
I think people are sick and tired of their flag burning on campus and their hate speeches against the US. If they intend to stay in the US ---since they were not born here, YES they should take loyalty oaths.
41 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:35:22 PDT by FITZ
American Muslims don't need your patronizing advice.
Not patronizing at all. I would like some assurances that the Muslim community is aware of the problem and is taking steps to resolve it. It would go a long way towards defusing the mistrust. The longer they remain silent - or worse say we deserved it - the uglier this will get.
42 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:39:25 PDT by Antoninus
Yep, and you can bet that is the general feeling amoung most of the American-Muslim. But unfortuatly thats their people and they must stick with thier people! UNITY
43 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:39:38 PDT by Fleck78
Odd. Every day for a week I've seen various American Muslims in newspapers and on TV decrying
the attack, damning suicide bombers and explaining that Islam is not what the Taliban
and the jihadists say it is.
Would signed loyalty oaths and a blood sample be sufficient, Mr. McCarthy?
44 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:40:47 PDT by Storm Orphan
There have already been a couple press conferences along these lines in the last couple of days. If the one I saw last night on C-Span2 was any indication, I think you are going to be sorely disappointed.
After the 7 or 8 speakers had finished their spiels, there was a Q&A session with the media. After a few questions, it became apparent that the media wasn't too impressed with the various condemnations of this attack put forth by the speakers. A question came up regarding a comparison of the beliefs of extremist Muslims vs. non-extremist, which caused one of the speakers to grab the microphone and forcefully condemn the actions of the terrorists minus any "buts...". Clearly, that one speaker realized that they hadn't done a very good job of distancing themselves from this attack, but I'm not sure the rest of the Muslims had a clue.
45 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:40:52 PDT by Major Matt Mason
Haven't heard much "Osama bin Laden is a criminal and a murderer and deserves to be killed," from the Muslim-Arab community, but they sure have been getting busy holding press conferences about stopping hate crimes against Arabs. I think they're blowing a few scattered incidents out of proportion in order to avoid addressing the issue of how they really feel about Osama and the gang.
46 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:41:57 PDT by Cinnamon Girl
If they're security risks, sure, send them home. But Antonius gave the impression he expected this from Muslim citizens as well.
47 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:44:08 PDT by NovemberCharlie
Then immediately free the great hero Jonathan Pollard as a demonstration of America's solidarity with the greatest ally in all of recorded history. Provide all and complete intelligence gathered without restriction by our FBI, CIA, NSA, et al to the Mossad. Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever. If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
This tragedy has brought a number of Jew-haters out into the open.
Pollard is a traitorous criminal who first tried to sell our secrets to the highest bidder. He is a criminal who should never see the light of day except from behind bars. I don't hate Jews, but I sure as hell hate traitors. As for Mossad operating freely in our country, that is absolute madness. They are not US citizens and they have no allegiance to our constitution. Maybe this was a parody post and I just missed something.
48 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:47:14 PDT by AlaskaErik
"No, because the 'attacks' are few and far-between. Most of the ones reported that I've heard included nothing more than verbal confrontations. In my opinion, the restraint has been little short of amazing considering the events."
Unfortunately, there have been more than verbal confrontations...
And on your second point, I guess I have a higher opinion of human nature.
49 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:49:10 PDT by boston_liberty
Would signed loyalty oaths and a blood sample be sufficient, Mr. McCarthy?
Actually, an official public rally like I described above would be sufficient. No loyalty oaths, no blood samples. And for the record, as we now know Joe McCarthy, buffoon that he was, was more right than wrong. Or are you one of the six people left who still believe that Soviet money wasn't funding American communism?
50 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:51:13 PDT by Antoninus
See post #15.
51 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:53:39 PDT by Roscoe
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Those directing their anger against Muslims in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon should be "ashamed," President Bush said Monday.
"Muslim Americans make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country," Bush said. "They need to be treated with respect."
Touring a Washington mosque, Bush said, "the face of terror is not the true faith of Islam."
He also quoted the Muslim holy book, the Quran: "In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil."
The president's comments underscored a Muslim group's reports Monday of scores of attacks against American Muslims, South Asians and Arabs since the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington last week.
At a press conference, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) said it had received reports of harassment of Muslim women and obscenities shouted on the street; bombings, car rammings and arson attempts at mosques; and beatings, death threats and possibly even killings.
"We cannot count the amount of calls that we are getting of the general atmosphere of hatred," said CAIR's Joshua Salaam.
"Many people are calling in, giving us the incidents of them driving down the street and people trying to run them off the road, people shouting at them, obscenities, foul language," Salaam said. "We're getting calls of people getting fired from their jobs without any reason. And this is what we're concerned about is now we're going to have a future of discrimination that is more subtle."
FBI Director Robert Mueller said Monday that "vigilante attacks and threats against Arab-Americans will not be tolerated."
The FBI and Justice Department, he said, are committed to investigating and prosecuting violations of federal hate crime laws.
'We are Americans, too'
The agency has launched 40 hate-crime investigations against individuals and institutions after reported attacks against Arab-American citizens and institutions, Mueller said. The FBI is reaching out to leaders of the Arab-American community in each FBI field office across the country, he said.
CAIR, at its press conference, passed along this message: "We denounce the terrorist attacks. They don't reflect the behavior and thoughts of the majority of Muslims. And ... we are Americans, too."
Nahid Awad, the group's executive director, said, "There is no place in Islam for acts of terrorism and violence against innocent people."
Awad called Muslim firefighters in New York, Muslim volunteers donating blood and performing relief work, and the Muslim doctors treating victims "the true face of the community."
Awad said the majority of Muslim scholars throughout the world condemn the attack.
"We cannot allow the acts of the few to determine and take over the debate of important issues. Unfortunately, the tragic and harsh reality that's coming out of this horrible tragedy is that many Americans do not know about the beautiful religion of Islam," he said.
Two killings investigated
Police in Dallas, Texas, are investigating whether the killing of a Pakistani grocer was racially motivated.
In Mesa, Arizona, an Indian immigrant who practiced the Sikh faith and had a beard and wore a turban was gunned down Saturday at the gas station he ran.
Members of CAIR say Sikhs are bearing the brunt of hostility because of their appearance, which is not unlike that of suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden.
"We had another report of a Sikh man being pulled off a train, I think between here and New York, just because of his looks," said Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR national communications director.
"And we saw the other case where a Copt, an Egyptian Copt, a Christian, was probably killed because he looked like he could be a Muslim. So bigots are never brain surgeons. I mean, when they do these things it's based on ignorance. So their targets always aren't the right targets in their own minds."
Awad said: "We should not be judged on our looks, our last names, the way we dress, the way we talk."
Many Americans have rallied to Muslims' support. Awad said there have been statements of support and sympathy for the community from Christians and Jews.
Muslim-Americans must start a long-term project to educate Americans about Islam, one CAIR representative said at the press conference.
"We all came on different ships," Awad said during the news conference. "But we are all in the same boat."
------------------------------
Happy now, Antonius? Is this enough to end your witch hunt?
52 Posted on 09/19/2001 21:59:32 PDT by Storm Orphan
I believe anyone who would demand loyalty oaths of American citizens is wrong.
53 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:00:39 PDT by Storm Orphan
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Representatives of a dozen Jewish, Arab and community groups came together Wednesday to speak out against what they see as a surging "racist backlash" against Muslims and Arabs in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the United States.
"We are here today in solidarity with people of other groups and other faiths in order to say that the bias attacks must stop," said Imam Talib Abdur-Rashid of the Islamic Leadership Council.
The groups held a news conference in Union Square Park, where one of the largest memorials has sprung up to victims of the attacks. Candlelight vigils there have drawn hundreds in the past week.
"As in the turmoil of the Gulf War, we feel an upsurge of anti-Arab racism," said Lorne Lieb of Jews Against the Occupation.
The FBI said this week it has initiated 40 hate crime investigations into alleged murders, assaults and arsons directed at Americans who are Muslim, South Asian and Arab -- crimes which have climbed since the attacks. Osama bin Laden, a radical Islamic Saudi exile who has declared a jihad, or holy war, against the United States and its citizens, is the prime suspect in those attacks.
--------------------------------
"Few and far between."
"Nothing more than verbal confrontations."
54 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:03:58 PDT by Storm Orphan
When we are forced to kill Muslims because of their religious "HERO", we lose the war. UNITY! This war is not a HOLY War, infact no war has ever been a HOLY war that is the flaw. How can peace result from massacre? Maybe our GOD whomever that may be might not have Peace in mind. Maybe he would settle for POWER. We should name these wars Amassing Wars and pray in an Amassing church.
55 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:04:59 PDT by Fleck78
40 hate crime investigations into alleged murders, assaults and arsons
What are your sources of 40 murders? I only read of one murder of a non-Muslim, I did not read that one single Muslim has been murdered. As far as threats to mosques, apparently every Jewish synagogue is hiring security guards for their holy days (I don't think it's because of Christians or atheists possibly killing them). Doesn't that trouble you in the least? Or for some reason is it only threats to Arabs that bothers you?
56 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:29:29 PDT by FITZ
You have a severe reading comprehesion problem.
Try again.
And do those other threats concern me? Absolutely.
But this thread's author claims American Muslims need to denounce this attack (they have) and
that the attacks against American Muslims have only been a few instances of verbal harassment (they have not.)
Start a thread on the threats to synagogues and I will denounce those attacks, too.
57 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:32:55 PDT by Storm Orphan
Great.... So now the President is a terrorist symp too. Go figure.
58 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:35:57 PDT by Sandy
Good one.
59 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:38:20 PDT by Storm Orphan
... Joe McCarthy, buffoon that he was ... ... you are right
... was more right than wrong ... ... you are wrong.
60 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:40:44 PDT by JPR_Boise_ID
Where are the articles about all the murdered Muslims? I have read of no murdered Muslims at all. Arson? I'm not convinced of that anymore after those ministers were caught setting fire to their own churches. I'd have to see positive proof, not just them alleging all this. As far as assaults, many people are assaulted ever day in every city for many reason, and very recently a woman in Texas claimed someone carved kkk into her chest when it turned out she herself had done it. Have any of these cases you claim gone to trial yet?
61 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:44:52 PDT by FITZ
Well it seems that you have finally found religion......Muslim
62 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:46:47 PDT by Texasforever
"The FBI said this week it has initiated 40 hate crime investigations into alleged murders, assaults and arsons directed at Americans who are Muslim, South Asian and Arab ..."
Ask the FBI
63 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:48:49 PDT by Storm Orphan
I believe there might be some harassment, maybe some vandalism and that's wrong but I don't trust many of these people not to make it up so Osama bin Laden will be off the hook for what he did while we focus on our political correctness. Too many were very quick to start telling us it was all our fault and we deserved it and that there should be absolutely no retaliation. They know us fairly well, they know how to turn our freedoms and our political correctness to their own advantage in the war against us.
64 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:48:51 PDT by FITZ
LOL. CAIR is a master group at the art of spoonfeeding sugar water to the American audience, then screaming bloody jihad jihad to their moslem audience.
I am surprised you are taken in so easily. CAIR has a long and well known history of supporting terrorist groups.
65 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:48:59 PDT by Travis McGee
The religion is called Islam. A person of Islamic faith is a Muslim.
And I am still an atheist who can't stand religious bigotry seeking to hide behind the
smoke of human tragedy.
66 Posted on 09/19/2001 22:50:33 PDT by Storm Orphan
Re: "People are looking at them funny now" -- Yeah, and they'd better get used to it. As Marcia Clark (remember her from the O.J. trial?) said on the radio the other day --all Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists thus far have been Muslims! Just wait until I give them MY "evil eye."
69 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:03:20 PDT by Califreeper
I want to apologize to you before I refresh the page, I can find nothing from you on this forum that has used this tragedy for political purposes. I shot from the hip and should not have let past disagreements cloud my responses.
70 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:06:00 PDT by Texasforever
I've watched C-Span quite a bit and seen Muslim panels and various speakers. Haven't seen any outrage--except at violations of their civil rights which they loudly proclaim as "unamerican." (With the exception of the Zogby brothers.) I see their attitudes as unamerican. Don't these people realize their lives are threatened too.
71 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:07:31 PDT by Calpublican
Apology accepted. I will ask the moderator to pull both of our untoward remarks(67 and 68)
and explain neither of us meant it.
72 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:10:24 PDT by Storm Orphan
Salaam!
Get a grip, Automotormouth, you're playing right into the hands of the terrorists.
I've never seen a more arrogant, self-righteous, racist spewing of pure unadulterated hypocritical bull.
Who do you think you are, God? Or just the guy He works for? Who the hell answers to you -- are you surrounded by p*ssy-whipped sycophants or something, that you think you can address people in these tones and pig-headed attitudes and all the muslims will bend over and kiss your patootie?
An insidious, monstrous criminal atrocity has been committed against our country.
Yep. No one ever did anything like this to us before. Glad you noticed. It suggests that your head isn't really stuck up where it appears to reside.
There's now little doubt that this barbaric act was committed by fanatical Muslims as part of a jihad against the 'Great Satan' America.
What? What are you smoking? What kind of a "fanatical muslim" spends time in a bar talking about going out and killing people? What manner of "fanatical muslim" works in complete secrecy for five years and then the night before execution goes out and paints an evidentiary trail a mile wide? What kind of fanatical demonizer are you that you jingoistically attribute such things to religious people?
Or have you decided that all "religious" people are only those who attend Christimas parties and Easter services (if they can get out of bed on Sunday)?
Doubt is all you have. Doubt is your faith. Doubt is the constant characteristic of all your thinking. Until, that is, you want to go out and kill people who believe in God like you don't.
In the aftermath, we are treated to platitudinous
and largely unnecessary calls for Americans to exercise 'restraint' and not take out our anger against other Americans who happen to be of the same religious extraction as the maniacs who perpetrated this act.
No platitudinous calls here, buster. Come near me or my family and you'll be blown away. There's no way I'm going to put up with any racist crap like this from anyone. I'm an American, I'll kick ass. Blow your smoke in some other direction.
These calls for restraint could be made unnecessary if American Muslims would simply do the following...
Convene a very public, nationally televised 'town hall' meeting of Muslim clerics and high-ranking officials with in their communities around the country.
And where are you going to find all these pretenders? I'm sure you can come up with oodles of engineering degree holders, psychologists and bureaucrats to parade around like that and pretend to speak for the muslims. They don't speak for anybody other than themselves, they'd tell you what you want to hear, and they'd wait patiently for you to pat their little brown pointy heads (and then run off to apply for a grant).
That's what you want to do anyway, isn't it? Extend your magnanimous "forgiveness" to some lesser folk for something they didn't even do?
Within this public forum, allow presenter after presenter to state unequivocably that
they:
1. Decry the dastardly attack on the World Trade Centers in no uncertain terms.
Muslims and muslim leaders all over the world have been doing that since Tuesday. Where have you been? More meaningfully, where has your media been?
2. Declare to be false and pernicious the notion that a murderous, suicidal death leads one's soul to heaven. State in no uncertain terms that this teaching is contrary to true Islam.
Muslims and muslim leaders all over the world have been doing that since *before* Tuesday. Where have you been? More meaningfully, where has your media been? Where has your public education system been? That's common knowledge all over the world.
3. Renounce the use of terrorist violence to achieve political ends, and call for ALL foreign governments to do the same.
Muslims and muslim leaders all over the world have been doing that since *LONG* before Tuesday. Where have you been? More meaningfully, where has your media been?
4. State publicly that they support the right of the United States to wage war against those nations and groups which harbor and abet terrorism whether they be Muslim or otherwise.
Not a chance.
As a nation we're totally incompetent for this role -- we support State terror with our tax dollars and spineless politicians and our history of that runs from Cuba through South America to Africa through the Middle East and everywhere.
We supported Bin Laden. We supported Batista and Pinochet. We supported Saddam Hussein. We supported Juan Peron. We supported Reza Pahlavi. We supported the life-long terrorist Menachem Begin and his equally foul partner Yitzhak Shamir. We supported every tin-horn dictator we could rely on to buy our munitions with the money Congress gave them -- after their skim, of course.
America is incompetent to be the moral policeman of the world, and ranting and chest-beating and flag waving doesn't change our history a bit. When we export terror for fifty years, we can expect it to come back -- so do we police ourselves and stop our support of terror regimes first? Otherwise we have no business claiming the moral high ground here.
5. Put forth a dire warning to the terrorist cells that may be in their midst that Muslim-Americans will not think twice about turning these perfidious scoundrels over to the US government.
Where do you get this stuff?
Our FBI has foiled literally hundreds of plans to work some violence in America. We muslims have been fighting with immigrants and visitors for decades to leave their anti-colonial battles and internecine fights at home where they came from and *not* bring them to America. And when they don't, we make damn sure they can't cause us problems.
And the FBI are no slackers, either. They know who among the Green Card holders will talk to them. They have their own sophisticated intelligence view from college professors, employers, legal immigrants, Green Card holders, and others. When the Iranians were spreading around their counterfeit hundred dollar bills, the FBI was tracking the flow, they know who took that blood money.
So all of a sudden you think our professionals are incompetent? What's incompetent are the people we elect after they're bought by campaign contributions from disloyal citizens on behalf of a foreign country.
And folks such as yourself who think an infantile demand for nonsense is the way to solve problems.
6. Mention that any public celebration of these attacks by Muslim-Americans is a deplorable act which harms not only the Muslim community, but America as a whole.
While your news media were playing you the same nonsense footage over and over again of some children playing, the Palestinian people were lining up to donate blood and here in America we muslims were doing the same. Where were the media? Why aren't you asking them?
What I don't want to hear in relation to this is one single word about:
Oh, now this gets really hilarious.
1. How this would never have happened if the US didn't support Israel.
This wouldn't have happened if we didn't elect bought politicians who've funneled our money to a terrorist state called Israel for fifty years. Get it through that rock between your ears: effects have causes. Wake up. It will happen again, with your supercilious arrogant attitude.
You don't have to like it. I don't like it either. It makes me sick to think about some slimy creep telling my Congressman how many Congressional aides he's going to hire from a list of nominees provided by a campaign contributor. It comes back to us.
2. How our 'imperialist' oppression of Arab nations brought on this attack.
Huh? What idiot said that? The Arabs oppress themselves, we don't need to help them, they're good at it. What do money-grubbing politicians have to do with it? What's the difference between an oil shaykh buying a slave girl for a few weeks and a President giving dictation to an intern?
3. Any kind of justification for terrorist barbarism.
No worry there, nobody can do that.
Individual statements along these lines have surfaced here and there, but until the Muslim community as a whole does this in a very public fashion, I will have to view them with some suspicion.
No, such statements wouldn't help you. Then you'd just be suspicious of the statements, and your racism would stay in place.
The mere fact that we haven't seen more of these kinds of statements
indicates to me (and I hope I'm wrong on this) that there is decent amount of clandestine approval of the attack within the Muslim-American community ...
Sadly, you could find some. Or what you would find is some muslims who are glad it happened.
Oh, I know that now there will be a hue and cry that I'm some kind of whatever, just trying to fan the flames of hatred, but that's nonsense. It's just true that there are some sick, shortsighted, angry people who happen to be muslim. They're outnumbered by two groups: other muslims on the one hand, and Americans who are sick, shortsighted, and angry.
But they're there, of course they're there. Fifty years of financing terrorism in the Holy Land has upset some people. What a surprise.
Heck, if it were some extremist Catholic group that did this, we might expect to see every single priest, nun, bishop and the Pope too begging the world for forgiveness. A little more condemnation and consternation from the Muslim community would go a long way at this point.
A little more integrity in our press and politics would go a lot farther. Then you'd know that muslims have been angry about Tuesday but you haven't been hearing about it from your "free" press, and you'd know that your tax dollars have been used to drive people insane so they fly airplanes into buildings. And maybe we'd start seeing some accountability for the people we send to Washington.
We'd better.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
73 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:15:31 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
They also need to prominently fly the American flag in front of their mosque. To hell with separation of church and state.
74 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:16:31 PDT by FrogMom
That was quite a post. However, it means absolutly nothing for various Muslim leaders or the rank and file for that matter, to "condemn" an act after it takes place. The purpose of this post is valid and there is NOTHING unreasonable about it. Like it or not, the Muslim terrorist organizations cannot survive without the aid and comfort of others. It is past time for the "others" to choose and not just wring their hands and spew platitudes such as you have done.
75 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:21:59 PDT by Texasforever
Our FBI has foiled literally hundreds of plans to work some violence in America. We muslims have been fighting with immigrants and visitors for decades to leave their anti-colonial battles and internecine fights at home
Well you muslims and our FBI certainly failed big time before last Tuesday. No one was paying attention when a large group of muslims decided to kill President Bush, our Congress, destroy the Pentagon, ruin our economy, disable transportation hubs. Pretty big plans to have been missed by so many wouldn't you think?
76 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:24:27 PDT by FITZ
American Muslims don't need your patronizing advice.
I mean, listen to yourselves. "Loyalty oaths"?
yeeeesh.
Thanks.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
77 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:28:37 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
They're outnumbered by two groups: other muslims on the one hand, and Americans who are sick, shortsighted, and angry.
The Americans you claim are sick (because they just watched 6000 of their fellow Americans die just for going to work) are at least sick in their own country. Unlike the Muslims who have their own country, hate this one but come here anyhow. I went to college and I managed to see many demonstrations where the Muslims burned the US flag. I could never figure that one out, if I didn't like a government, I certainly would not be living in that country, I'd stay home.
78 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:33:45 PDT by FITZ
Sorry to disappoint you, but the enumerated plan does NOTHING to punish the terrorists other than to give islam more exposure to the American people.
It's analogous to someone who kills and then says, "I'm Sorry."
Folks, seems to me we're going to lose this war. On reading an article on Operation Noble Eagle (link below)I was surprised to read that the anti terrorism plan is being likened to the war on poverty and the war on drugs. The method to be used will be the one of "hearts and minds" (read: compassion, forgiveness and love). Below is an excerpt:
British officials said the whole focus of the long-term American approach was being driven by Richard Cheney, the American Vice-President, and General Colin Powell, the Secretary of State. The combination of the two highly experienced men was guaranteeing a well-coordinated strategy. “Everyone now knows it’s going to be a long haul, not a spectacular single strike,” one official said. The war on terrorism could be likened, they said, to the war on drugs or poverty, and the best way to undermine and eventually dismantle the terrorist structures around the world was to use the method of “hearts and minds” — encouraging foreign governments and people to join in the “war” so that terrorists would be isolated and identified.
Some of the most dramatic achievements, the sources say, might come, not from military action, but from political pressure on foreign governments to turn their backs on terrorism and to hand over the organisers of terrorist networks.
I'm afraid the American people are in for a big surprise, a lot of wasted taxpayers' money, and much, much disappointment.
Please read Operation Noble Eagle and cry. It is the blueprint of what to expect for the future of America.
79 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:35:14 PDT by It is time
It is past time for the "others" to choose and not just wring their hands and spew platitudes such as you have done.
Roger that.
80 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:36:24 PDT by Mark17
The war on terrorism could be likened, they said, to the war on drugs or poverty
Oh brother.
81 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:39:31 PDT by Storm Orphan
Unbelievable how malleable and gullible the American mind can be. How easily it can fall prey to political correctness and DoubleThink. The posts in this thread are testimony to this fact.
God save us from the "Enemy Within." The horror! The horror!
America, wake up and see the writing on the wall.
82 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:47:56 PDT by It is time
Try to look on the bright side. If they're going to fight this slaughter of US citizens on US soil with political correctness, they'll have to send our liberals over to those countries ---sort of like a peace corp to teach them how to be politically correct. We can give them all our NOW women, the ACLU, Rosie, Ophrah, all of Hollywood, the Clintons and Gores....
83 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:49:02 PDT by FITZ
No, actually you are wrong. With the opening of some of the Russian files, multiple books have pointed out that Mccarthy was right nearly 100% of the time. But then why let reality change our most cherished myths?
84 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:57:50 PDT by baxter999
Any Middle Eastern person who embraces our culture, learns to speak ou language, and will put no other loyalty above that to America...SHOULD BE WELCOME.
Excellent post!
However, shouldn't we put a limit to the number of muslims and other third-world immigrants who wish to come here even if they assimilate? I think so. According to your reasoning above if we allow as many who wish to immigrate to this country, it will get to the point of no-return in which these immigrants will no longer have to embrace our culture, speak our language or respect our laws as they are now the new culture/language/religion. IOW, their sheer numbers will have replaced our culture, religion, language, laws etc.
So, I'll be careful in saying that anyone who will assimilate is free to come.
85 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:23:39 PDT by It is time
But then why let reality change our most cherished myths?
....
Nah, too easy.
86 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:29:13 PDT by Storm Orphan
With the opening of some of the Russian files, multiple books have pointed out that Mccarthy was right nearly 100% of the time.
I just started reading a history of the phenomenon we call McCarthyism. It goes to great length in the forward to point out that very few of the people targetted were innocent. I look forward to working through the material it presents.
87 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:40:19 PDT by Jolly Rodgers
Then let the Muslims excise their own cancer before we have to do it for them. If we have to do it I can assure you that we will be more through and more likely to remove more collateral healthy tissue to eliminate the cancerous disease taking root within Islam. That cancerous disease is hatred...hatred for Christians and Jews.
88 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:44:19 PDT by KDD
You are right.
This is a blueprint for failure. Israel has tried this approach to some degree with little to show but more dead
citizens. A politicians effectiveness will now be determined by the terrorists latest attack on us. No attacks=good
politician...more attacks=bad. Terrorism as a means to influence our election results becomes a possibility. We just don't have
the time to play nice with these terrorists. This is Powell and Cheney. That's for sure. Because of Powells advice to G.H. Bush,
we didn't finish Saddam off when we had the chance. And this plan smells of appeasement to the countries that support and
finance these terrorists. We know many of them already renounce terrorism on the one hand while feeding and housing it with
the other. This plan does not address that reality at all. If the administration really intends to take this course, I will have a difficult
time supporting it.
89 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:14:55 PDT by KDD
Abraham Lincoln demanded an Oath of Loyalty.
90 Posted on 09/20/2001 03:45:14 PDT by rebdov
From a CNN article Storm Orphan posted: "CAIR, at its press conference, passed along this message: "We denounce the terrorist attacks. They don't reflect the behavior and thoughts of the majority of Muslims. And ... we are Americans, too."
Why haven't these groups denounced Osama bin Laden in particular? Why just the vague 'we denounce terrorist attacks?' How about a fatwa on him?
Nahid Awad, the group's executive director, said, "There is no place in Islam for acts of terrorism and violence against innocent people."
Rhetorically, the use of the word 'innocent' is subjective.
Awad said the majority of Muslim scholars throughout the world condemn the attack.
And why are people who don't condemn the attacks still called "Muslim scholars" by the Muslim community? Why not, 'fringe nuts' or 'evil-doers?'
"We cannot allow the acts of the few to determine and take over the debate of important issues."
What issues is the speaker referring to?
91 Posted on 09/20/2001 04:57:52 PDT by Cinnamon Girl
bump.
92 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:01:38 PDT by KDD
Does the Koran encourage violence against non-Muslims?
If Islam is inherently peaceful, why are religious minorities persecuted everywhere Islamics are in the majority?
If Islam is inherently peaceful, why are all Islamic governments authoritarian to the core?
If the Islamic world disagrees with last Tuesday's slaughter, why has not a single Islamic cleric issued a fatwa against bin Laden?
Given that the USA has 280,000,000 people, does the small number of attacks that have been carried out against Muslims really justify all these sermonettes about "bigotry"?
What's more important: lecturing the 99.99% of Americans who are not racist for the actions of a handful of bigots or figuring out how to stop future terrorist attacks?
A few of the questions FR's professional anti-racists don't want to discuss.
93 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:03:07 PDT by Blade
Would signed loyalty oaths and a blood sample be sufficient, Mr. McCarthy?
The auone is proposing "loyalty oaths," Straw Man Orphan.
94 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:13:36 PDT by Blade
The auone No one is proposing...
95 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:17:02 PDT by Blade
Happy now, Antonius? Is this enough to end your witch hunt?
Maybe it's time for you to take a reading comprehension course. Where in anything I wrote did I call for 'witch hunts'? To even compare what I wrote with anything of the sort is nothing but straw-man obfuscation. As usual, you're full of cr@p.
What I wrote was a piece of advice to Muslims in America. I wrote it from the perspective of a non-Muslim American who desperately wants to believe that American Muslims have the same ardent desire to defend and protect this country that I do.
And yes, in a country of 280 million souls, 40 incidents is positively MINISCULE when considering what happened in Manhattan, who the perpetrators were, their modus operandi, and that certain of their compatriots in this country were celebrating the act.
And here you are trying to play what I wrote off against what President Bush has said. The amusing thing is that the President and I are on the same page. He's calling for unity - so am I. I would simply like to see a bit more p!ss and vinegar from our Muslim brethren in response to this attack and believe it would go a long way towards bringing us together as a nation. You can not argue this point, so you have to pretend I'm saying something which I'm not. Then again, intellectual honesty never was your strong suit.
If you think my idea smacks of 'loyalty oaths', you're simply wrong. You are only using that loaded and unrelated phrase to attack an idea that is wholly voluntary. The impetus for such an event would have to spring directly from the Muslim community. I hope someone out there picks up on it.
96 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:31:50 PDT by Antoninus
No one is proposing "loyalty oaths," Straw Man Orphan.
He knows it. In typical fashion, he's just trying to change the course and focus of an argument he knows he can't win.
97 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:34:02 PDT by Antoninus
In the aftermath, we are treated to platitudinous and largely unnecessary calls for Americans to exercise 'restraint' and not take out our anger against other Americans who happen to be of the same religious extraction as the maniacs who perpetrated this act.
Just to put thing in perspective, there are not wholesale reprisals taking place against Arab-Americans. As a matter of fact, FNC reported this morning that the FBI is investigating a whopping 40, I repeat: 40, suspected hate crimes against Americans of Arab ancestry. Forty idiots do not a hate campaign make.
It made me sick to see the explosion of wailing on FR here recently decrying some alleged pogrom that was taking place against Arabs in this country. With 6,000 of our fellow citizens currently blown to pieces by Muslim extremists, it showed a jarring lack of priorities, at the very least.
As you stated so eloquently in your article, under these circumstances, the amount of restraint that has been shown should be the real story.
98 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:39:23 PDT by hcmama
Storm Orphan has to spread his idiocy on as many threads as possible, as he is due for one of his regularly scheduled three day banishments from FR.
99 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:43:39 PDT by hcmama
There is confusion between social thought and political thinking. Social thought is based upon one's emotions e.g. Moslems are warm, fuzzy, have proper relations with their families and are kind to their animals. This is true. Political thinking is based upon the fact that Islamic individuals in the name of Islam attacked us.
The proper political response would be expulsion. Let those who oppose mass expulsions state the means of discrimination between those who will not attack us and those who are already in place and waiting for the opportunity to bomb, burn and destroy. The test by which one may discriminate between the two classes must be stated BEFORE THE EVENT! Once the infallible test is stated we can all be loving, kind to our pets.
100 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:48:41 PDT by HENRYADAMS
I expect Muslims who are not citizens to go home now.
Then we can begin background checks on those you call "American Muslims". At least one of those "American Muslims" was a naturalized citizen and led a team of hijackers.
--Boris
101 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:02:26 PDT by boris
you'd know that your tax dollars have been used to drive people insane so they fly airplanes into buildings.
Aha! Now I understand. They couldn't help it, they were driven insane by our tax dollars. Thanks.
102 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:04:54 PDT by WillaJohns
Would signed loyalty oaths and a blood sample be sufficient, Mr. McCarthy?
Might be for him, but I would just as soon see the pack-up and leave. Wouldn't have to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life. No oath, no growth.
103 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:05:10 PDT by TightSqueeze
the pack-up and leave = them pack-up and leave
104 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:07:10 PDT by TightSqueeze
I agree with your list, but I doubt that it will happen.
I am sick to death of these people and other "Blame America First" leftist traitors trying to justify this most horrible attack and slaughter of innocent people by the thousands. Anyone with a mind twisted enough to justify cutting the throats of flight attendants, murder of the pilots and ramming a jet full of people and fuel into a huge building thereby killing thousands, is a dangerous, unstable, potential mass murderer!
There is no reason, NONE, that could justify such a horrible act. If ANY religion practices sick, murderous acts such as these, the adherents should be hunted down and killed like the rabid dogs they are! These are crimes against humanity, no different than Hitler killing the Jewish people in the ovens of Nazi Germany.
The Islamic nations and people who justify these criminal acts should be dealt with in the same way this world dealt with the Nazi's and Imperial Japan. God help this world if these people ever gain sway over the entire world. It would be living hell on Earth, no doubt about that.
105 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:08:40 PDT by Walkin Man
You are right. Arab-Americans love for, and loyalty towards American will be sorely tested when military action commences.
106 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:10:41 PDT by LeftyStomper
You are right. Arab-Americans' love for and loyalty towards America will be sorely tested when military action commences.
107 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:11:20 PDT by LeftyStomper
YES
This has to be done to let the world know that the Muslims Americans are Americans
and support America!
Otherwise, Muslims around the world would think that all Muslims believe in killing Americans.
This Must Be Done! Denounce Terrorism
108 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:19:18 PDT by Osprey
Why stop at Muslims? The Christians fight each other with bombs in public places also (Ireland). And what about people with forgien sounding names? Deport them all........wait a minute....nobody left here but us Native Americans....(which might not be so bad)
109 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:22:07 PDT by Postal Worker with a gun
Would signed loyalty oaths and a blood sample be sufficient, Mr. McCarthy?
Is it that you can't figure out how to identify the enemy within our boarders or is it that you just don't want to be bothered? It's easier to call people names than take care of business?
110 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:29:49 PDT by ethical
Happy now, Antonius? Is this enough to end your witch hunt?
Doesn't take much to convince you to stop dealing with the problem at hand. It does not matter how many Muslims are wrongfully killed by idiots. The REALITY here is that there is a very strong infrastructure in THIS country that supports terrorist activity. Gotta deal with it.
111 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:35:38 PDT by ethical
From Jane's Intelligence Review August 1, 2001:
- Al-Qaeda physically and/or ideologically penetrates international and domestic Islamic NGOs throughout the world. Thus the Al-Qaeda infrastructure is inseparably enmeshed with the religious,-social and economic fabric of Muslim communities worldwide. Host countries such as the UK, Canada, Australia, and even the USA, are hesitant to investigate Islamic charities, including foreign charities.
112 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:36:55 PDT by allthingsnew
I think every Mosque, every cleric, every member of Islam in America should be investigated by the INS, FBI,& CIA. Islam intends for one thing only, and that is the destruction and eradication of "the infidel"... that's us folks. The world has pressed Israel to be tolerant toward her butcherer’s, now we are going to be placed in that same boat. These fanatics will plead for our compassion for their "plight" and stab us in the back when we open our arms to embrace them.
113 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:44:10 PDT by Godfollow
This wouldn't have happened if we didn't elect bought politicians who've funneled our money to a terrorist state called Israel for fifty years. Get it through that rock between your ears: effects have causes. Wake up. It will happen again, with your supercilious arrogant attitude.
Get this, you arrogant prick: Noone gives a rat's ass about your precious Pallies anymore. Their delusion dreams for some mythical Palestinian State went up in smoke right along with the WTC.
Oh, and this country will continue to support Israel against the barbarians that surround them. If you have a problem with that...well, I really, really hope you do have a problem with it.
. Oh, and by the way, your little "this will happen again" aside made me just a might uncomfortable. It's good to know the feds are out paying special attention to comments like that.
114 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:44:40 PDT by hcmama
No, actually you are wrong. With the opening of some of the Russian files, multiple books have pointed out that Mccarthy was right nearly 100% of the time. But then why let reality change our most cherished myths?
Joe McCarthy was destroyed, not because he was wrong, but because he was right.
115 Posted on 09/20/2001 07:55:04 PDT by Diojneez
Sure, and do the same to every Jew in America because they support Isreal (a forgien country), and everyone of Irish orgin as they might support the IRA, and every Hispanic as they are likely an illegal immigrant, and.......(you get the sarcastic picture?)
116 Posted on 09/20/2001 08:09:53 PDT by Postal Worker with a gun
That is right sir! No freedom of speech for foriegners. Not in war time! They want to go bow to Allah,they can go back home to their old countrys to do that. They're in a Christian nation now! They ought to be Thanking God for it, not bad-mouthing USA.
117 Posted on 09/20/2001 08:17:01 PDT by YESMAN
A nice start but talk is cheap. They should demonstrate their commitment to American by rooting out and turning over the terrorist vermin that are known to be hiding in their midst.
Anything short of actual accomplishments (not statements) in this area is irrelevant and just a smokescreen to hide their implicit support for the terrorist vermin and their atrocities.
118 Posted on 09/20/2001 08:32:54 PDT by jimkress
BTTT!
119 Posted on 09/20/2001 08:41:16 PDT by F.J. Mitchell
Then report me, hotshot.
120 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:01:03 PDT by Storm Orphan
And Abraham Lincoln was wrong.
121 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:03:40 PDT by Storm Orphan
How often do Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson make it a point to distance themselves, as Protestants, from what some Protestants do in N. Ireland (which isn't any less murderous than what some Catholics do)?
122 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:07:48 PDT by sendtoscott
People had the same suspicion of Catholics through the first half of the 20th Century, too.
All people like you do is take the focus away from rooting out terrorists to harassing
American citizens of a religion that you personally don't like.
Quit hiding your bigotry behind human tragedy.
We were attacked by a vicious terrorist group. These terrorists are being supported by a relatively small segment of the Muslim community. Please do not condemn all members of a race or religion for the barbaric acts of a few. We are at war against the terrorist groups and the rogue government regimes that harbor them. With few exceptions, the rest of the world is allied with us against these groups, but we are not at war with an entire people or race or religion. We must rid the world of the scourge of terrorism, while continuing to respect and defend the rights and lives of the innocent.
Thanks,
Jim Robinson
123 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:07:49 PDT by Storm Orphan
What I expect from American Muslims
That comment pretty much sums it up. You just put a hypen into the names of Americans. I'll flat guarantee you that Ted Kennedy's Immigation act of 1965, was an absolute, liberal abortion, in the worse sense.
Kennedy and his ilk, love the hypeneated handles. True Americans should hate them, and those who peddle them
Regards
J.R.
124 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:15:40 PDT by NMC EXP
BIngo!
125 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:18:13 PDT by Storm Orphan
Well, I don't think we can make blanket condemnations of groupings of people. Probably wisest to not convene, based on religion, "loyalty meetings." People can and will lie anyway.
Let's let people make their own affirmations.
126 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:18:45 PDT by TKEman
Thank you.
127 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:28:19 PDT by stuartcr
Nah. I figure you are probably ready to self-destruct any moment now. Today could be your day to implode....yet again.
(I am further betting it will probably happen during one of your interminable, lame-ass sermonettes. )
128 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:29:01 PDT by hcmama
Actually, I've only been suspended one time, for three days, for a rather raw profanity.
But since you're wrong on so many other things, I figure one more won't bother you.
129 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:34:26 PDT by Storm Orphan
Aw shucks. We are Americans. Can we do less?
130 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:35:19 PDT by Storm Orphan
We muslims have been fighting with immigrants and visitors for decades to leave their anti-colonial battles and internecine fights at home where they came from and *not* bring them to America. And when they don't, we make damn sure they can't cause us problems.
Question: Do you believe in al-Taqiyya as described here:
al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part I)
How can anyone believe what you say in light of this teaching of the the Quran? Millions of Muslims believe in al-Taqiyya and those who say they don't, who can believe that they don't? How does a person know when to trust what a Muslim says when al-Taqiyya is believed in by persons like the one at this website who defend it?
Cordially,
131 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:37:59 PDT by Diamond
BTTT
132 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:39:59 PDT by clee1
Actually, I've only been suspended one time, for three days, for a rather raw profanity.
That's nothing - I almost got suspended from high school one time.
Cordially,
133 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:45:15 PDT by Diamond
Quit hiding your bigotry behind human tragedy.
Oh, now I'm a bigot. I guess it was only a matter of time. Can't win the argument so let the name-calling commence. Guess what? It doesn't work on me. I know I'm not a bigot. I know what I wrote wasn't bigotted in any way.
Then, you go on to quote Jim Robinson (clearly because everyone on here knows that your own words carry no authority - you must glom on to that of others) as if what he says somehow contradicts what I have written. Of course, it does not. Nowhere do I condemn all or any Muslims, save those involved in the attack. I simply presented a potential strategy for how the Muslim population in America could allay the suspicion that exists out there. And there's no point denying that suspicion exists. It does. If my post was so contrary to the wishes of the owner of this site, I suppose he would yank it. He has not.
But of course, you're not interested in discussing this. You build yourself a straw man and then proceed to fling insults at it. But having seen you in action before, I understand that's par for the course.
134 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:49:46 PDT by Antoninus
Oh stop. You're gonna make me bust out crying.
135 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:53:31 PDT by Storm Orphan
Then, you go on to quote Jim Robinson (clearly because everyone on here knows that your own words carry no authority...
BINGO!! (I haven't noticed anyone receiving one of his little provisos being reprimanded in any way, have you? It must be killing him.)
136 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:09:17 PDT by hcmama
Get this picture... Israel bombing New York... not! IRA bombing the Pentagon... not! Illegal immigrants... they're illegal, i.e. not here legally, not living by the same the laws you and I live by, that is if your not an illegal immigrant, IRA of Islamic terrorist.
137 Posted on 09/20/2001 12:53:09 PDT by Godfollow
I know several Islamic citizens and they are beside themselves with comdemning the terrorists. One is Turkish., They get attacked by terrorists separatists all the time, so they are well aware of this danger. I figure we can take the risk of those who have gone to the trouble of getting citizenship. It doesn't seem like a person who has gone to that trouble would be a terrorist.
138 Posted on 09/20/2001 16:43:22 PDT by Ol'Grey Head
Question: Do you believe in al-Taqiyya as described here:
al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part I)
(http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html)
How can anyone believe what you say in light of this teaching of the the Quran? Millions of Muslims believe in al-Taqiyya and those who say they don't, who can believe that they don't? How does a person know when to trust what a Muslim says when al-Taqiyya is believed in by persons like the one at this website who defend it?
www.al-islam.org, as you can see plainly from the website, is a Shi'ah -- Persian -- organization. This "doctrine" of taqiyya is uniquely a shi'ah doctrine, it is the result of the Abbasid Terror over a thousand years ago. The shi'ah made common cause with the Abbasid clan and some others to topple the Umayyad dynasty, which they annihilated -- then the Abbasid turned on their allies, first the shi'ah. The doctrine of taqiyyah is one result.
Another result is that every government in the Middle East is riddled with crypto-shi'ah, posing for generations as sunnis, according to a brother who is from that region and well-travelled. That means that not only the Israeli intelligence that the United States receives, but also the intelligence that the United States receives from every government over there has to be checked over with extreme care before it goes into analyses presented to our decision-makers. But it isn't always handled that way.
The doctrine, as presented by the shi'ah, is a distortion, not a Qur'anic injunction in the slightest.
Now let's discuss Paul's exhortations that lying is an acceptable way to spread Christianity. Or do you plan to deny those, as well? And should you admit them, since they're so plainly and indelibly in the New Testament, then when you say that you don't follow them, or that they apply to spreading the Gospel and not to the political colonialization that has always accompanied that spread, should we believe you?
The Shi'ah openly espouse the doctrine, as you see. You will not find anything comparable among the traditional sunni communities. But as in all communities, you may find liars. There are certainly enough examples of that here at Free Republic, why should you or the Shi'ah have a monopoly on that?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
139 Posted on 09/20/2001 21:50:53 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I simply presented a potential strategy for how the Muslim population in America could allay the suspicion that exists out there.
Thank you then, I suppose, although I stand by what I've already written as well. Please forgive me that my "Thank you" is not entirely enthusiastic.
Muslims are explicitly told to avoid suspicion. To do anything else merely feeds it. It's like trolls -- respond to them reasonably and they stay around forever.
God will enlighten the American people about their errors in perception and reasoning. Maybe some muslims will help that, and maybe it will be a reciprocal experience with muslims also losing their misconceptions about America and Americans. I think He does a much better job of straightening people out than I could possibly do.
Meanwhile, I'll avoid suspicion. That works. It always works. At worst, it leaves people in their own black holes, and I certainly don't need to crawl in there with them.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
140 Posted on 09/20/2001 21:57:38 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your very perceptive analysis, particularly with regard to intelligence implication of the doctrine:
Another result is that every government in the Middle East is riddled with crypto-shi'ah, posing for generations as sunnis, according to a brother who is from that region and well-travelled. That means that not only the Israeli intelligence that the United States receives, but also the intelligence that the United States receives from every government over there has to be checked over with extreme care before it goes into analyses presented to our decision-makers. But it isn't always handled that way.
-------------------------
The doctrine, as presented by the shi'ah, is a distortion, not a Qur'anic injunction in the slightest.
You are more of a doctrinal expert on this subject than I am. Could you please explain the following references from the Quran and authoritative commentary:
Reference 1:
-----------
"Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al- Ma'athoor," narrates Ibn Abbas', the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of tradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]"
that Ibn Abbas said:
"al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable (i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al- Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart)."
NOTE: The two words "tat-taqooh" and "tooqatan," as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of "al-Taqiyya."
NOTE ALSO: The "heart" as referred to above and in later occurrences refers to the center of faith in an individual's existence. It is mentioned many times in the Quran."
Reference 2:
-----------
"Ibn Abbas also commented on the above verse, as narrated in Sunan al- Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, by saying:
"al-Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith."
NOTE: The meaning is that the tongue is permitted to utter anything in a time of need, as long as the heart is not affected; and one is still comfortable with faith."
(permission to utter "anything" in "a time of need" looks to me at least like a loophole big enough to drive a truck through)
-----------------
Now let's discuss Paul's exhortations that lying is an acceptable way to spread Christianity. Or do you plan to deny those, as well? And should you admit them, since they're so plainly and indelibly in the New Testament, then when you say that you don't follow them, or that they apply to spreading the Gospel and not to the political colonialization that has always accompanied that spread, should we believe you?
That is the first time in my entire life that I have heard of "Paul's exhortations that lying is an acceptable way to spread Christianity". References, please?
(Btw, I hope you include America herself in your true phrase "the political colonialization that has always accompanied that spread":^)
Cordially,
141 Posted on 09/21/2001 07:27:59 PDT by Diamond
Kennedy and his ilk, love the hypeneated handles. True Americans should hate them, and those who peddle them.
Acording to your logic I am a hyphenated German-American.... Naturalized as a citizen 34 years ago.... Grew up in NJ and NYC at a time in the Fifties when that part of the world was noted for being a proud "Melting Pot" ... I regard myself then and now as a proud American - period.
My disapproval of the Camelot Gang stems from far more fundamental concerns re: protection of individual liberties, etc.....
Almost 24% of Americans are of German origin. .... Now, what Indian tribe do you claim for your heritage?
142 Posted on 09/21/2001 19:21:38 PDT by YoursIn Liberty
Now let's discuss Paul's exhortations that lying is an acceptable way to spread Christianity. Or do you plan to deny those, as well?
Pardon me? I think you'll have to cite a chapter and verse before anyone on here will take you seriously on this.
143 Posted on 09/22/2001 15:52:34 PDT by Antoninus
Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever. If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
This could be good or it could be bad. The only thing I know for certainty is that the Mossad has the balls to do it. Unlike our p***y whipped secret (ha ha) services.
144 Posted on 09/22/2001 16:04:41 PDT by SeaDragon
"In America there is only room for 2 kinds of people...American citizens, and those waiting to be American citizens. Everyone else is either a trespasser, a visitor, or a terrorist."
... for emphasis ...
America ... love it or leave it.
145 Posted on 09/22/2001 16:31:47 PDT by Countyline
Allow all Mossad agents to operate freely in the U.S. without any restrictions whatsoever.
They already have that.
If they need to selectively target troublemakers in America it is to be permitted.
They already have the Lobby for that.
This could be good or it could be bad. The only thing I know for certainty is that the Mossad has the balls to do it. Unlike our p***y whipped secret (ha ha) services.
Just what we need -- more of the same.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
146 Posted on 09/24/2001 02:33:29 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Acording to your logic I am a hyphenated German-American.... Naturalized as a citizen 34 years ago.... Grew up in NJ and NYC at a time in the Fifties when that part of the world was noted for being a proud "Melting Pot" ... I regard myself then and now as a proud American - period.
Please go back and re-read my post. Believe me you and I are on the same page. I also despise the hyphenated labels. My last name is probably Scottish in origin. Call me a Scot-American, or European-American, and we will have a problem.
I have no idea when the first of my ancestors arrived here, but there was some whispered talk that one of my grandmothers had a little Cherokee in her. You want to call me something, call me an American. If you must further subdivide, call me a caucasian (that is scientifically accurate)....just don't call me late for dinner :-).
Regards
J.R.
147 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:27:07 PDT by NMC EXP
Believe me you and I are on the same page. I also despise the hyphenated labels. )....just don't call me late for dinner :-).
Glad to hear it! ..... and I won't call you late to dinner...
148 Posted on 09/24/2001 13:48:21 PDT by YoursIn Liberty
Dear ladies and gentleman, FYI we have an activist in here with nothing better to do than argue all day long. Having been asked to shut up about spreading propoganda about his religion and politics on news.grc.com, he proceeds to come here and spread more propoganda. Unemployed and scrounging off state welfare while exercising his freedom of speech which also covers telling lies and twisting anything people post and deliberately quoting out of context. You should be aware that (ankaboot) aka (Abujamal) aka (Dawud Ahmad Al-Amriki) is well known across many newsgroups as a TROLL. A visit to grc.news.feedback and grc.ten-forward a week or so back will give you an indication of what this guy is all about. He loves nothing better than to expose peoples names and addresses if they disagree with him or his activist minions. He will argue forever about nothing just for arguements sake and he is best off completely ignored as he always has to have the last word. Ignoring him completely like so many others do upsets him all the more and he goes away with his tail between his legs to spread FUD elsewhere. You will also find his propoganda on muslim groups on deja. A visit to his website at http://www.muslimamerica.net will give you an idea that this guy is a troublemaker first class. He uses 3 different email addresses that are well known muslims@earthlink.net abujamal@pchelpers.org and muslims@muslimamerica.net. Dawud Ahmad Al-Amriki, Muslim America, P.O. Box 231, Springdale, WA, 99173-0231, tel. (509) 258-9031, fax 1 (800) Muslims. Springdale, WA USA Here are some other useful details about this TROLL that is trying to hide his identity under this new alias. Beware like all TROLLS he has many aliases but he is easy to spot from his email addresses and the propoganda he spreads. He claims the only hope for America is Islam and that if you insult him that you should be careful his more militant brothers do not get to hear of it from him. Do a little research on him with the above search criteria and you will turn up alsorts of fundamentalist and radical activist crap, screaming for jihad and many more of his cut and paste ramblings posted to enflame and poke a reaction. Hey Abujamal, Give it up TROLL the game is up. We know what you are. We know what you stand for and we know what you are up to. *vome*
149 Posted on 09/24/2001 18:21:08 PDT by vome
I'd just settle for having my neighbor hoist an American flag or if that's too inconvenient, try not running down the neighborhood children whenever he drives down the street (he did that before September 11!)
150 Posted on 09/24/2001 18:27:33 PDT by zerosix
Salaam!
Glad you could make it. Welcome to Free Republic com, the on-line home of middle America.
Freepers, I know this poster from the computer privacy and internetworking security newsgroups hosted by Steve Gibson, who is currently helping the FBI -- at their request and in conjunction with the National Infrastructure Protection Center -- search for leads to those behind the Tuesday terrorist attack. At the request of the National Security Council through CERT (I've forgotten what that stands for), Steve Gibson has also written a basic introduction to what Americans will need to do in order to do their part in the cyber war that is also being waged by the terrorists. It will be public in a short time, you can read it now on Steve's newsgroups .
This post is *not* representative of news.grc.com/grc.news.feedback where we were discussing the Ida Code Red Worm and more lately the nimda worm, and in one newsgroup the terror war launched against America.
Expect to see more of these posts. The writer is a very hard worker and has a very dull axe to grind.
I think he's posted this to all of the Threads below.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War" on America
A Moment for Truth
151 Posted on 09/25/2001 00:22:48 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I am a Muslim American, and you guys want me to stand entirely with the government to kill innocent Muslims, with my knowing that Muslims are no where behind the attacks? Never. I thank God I'm not as brainwashed as you are. I don't care about what you like to believe, but if you put yourselves in my shoes, perhaps you would look at things with a more critical eye. No evidence revealed is yet enough for me to stand against my fellow innocent Muslims in Afghanistan. Our objectiveness as an American nation brought us to an advanced position among the nations of the world, and I'm just practicing that objectiveness. You are destroying it, and you're taking us all down with you.
*I* spent the day of the attacks not being able to get my head together. *I* spent sleepless nights afterwards, not because of fear, not because of the discrimination against me that was to come, but because I was terrified. I could as well have been there in Manhattan. The next attack could very much kill me. You are making the real killers feel so good when they read your posts. That terrifies me more. But whatever I say or do cannot bring you out of your brain shower. I'm not supposed to follow what you say and think that *you* are the one who gives me freedom. I'm as free here as I can be anywhere. *I* am the one who determines when and what to say or do, not you, not the government, and not Rednecks.
Bush said that we are a great contribution to the society. We damn sure are. I am a dentist, working at a hospital. My brother is a pediatrician, treating all colors of babies, and my other brother is a chemical engineer, designing towers for industrial plants in this country. If we leave, you're the only losers because I will still be a dentist, and you will lose me to another country.
Moreover, you want Muslims to denounce Usama Bin Laden personally. When I hear him say THREE TIMES that he did not have anything to do with the attacks, I believe him, just like you should. Think about it. This single fact is more than enough for me to exclude him as a perpetrator or a mastermind. I will not explain how, because I need not to. And even if you heard my explanation, you will go on with your racism because you just can't leave the mainstream of fish is the brainwashing river.
And since your majesty ordered me "not to" say the things you were "sick of hearing", I want NO hate replies to this post. I've had my share already.
Abdul Hameed
152 Posted on 10/02/2001 18:06:46 PDT by Last
Boom. His fate is sealed. Die or live like the stinking dog that he is.
153 Posted on 10/03/2001 17:06:58 PDT by rbmillerjr
How could you have had your share already on 2 October ? You only made 2 post yesterday. Today, on another thread you said that you're a Palestian. Did you forget that you had posted on this thread that you're an American ? If you are a naturalized American citizen you took an oath to disavow any allegiance to your former homeland. If you are an American born citizen then how can you be a Palestian ?
154 Posted on 10/03/2001 18:25:06 PDT by Darlin'
155 Posted on 10/03/2001 18:43:42 PDT by Letitring
156 Posted on 10/03/2001 19:03:32 PDT by Talcminer
They fought against white Christians though, which is basically what Japan was fighting against, not a valid comparison in my opinion. FWIW
157 Posted on 10/03/2001 19:11:48 PDT by HeartOfDixie
158 Posted on 10/03/2001 19:26:39 PDT by mathurine
I know that Muslims are not behind it, so you can imagine how I feel towards you, and all the current argument means utter nothing to me . . . I am a Muslim American, and you guys want me to stand entirely with the government to kill innocent Muslims, with my knowing that Muslims are no where behind the attacks?
Your arguments mean less than nothing to us. You admit you are with the terrorists, knowing that is not a very bright thing to say in this climate. But no one every made a good case for Muslims being that bright. But we all know that those who think like you are evil.
159 Posted on 10/03/2001 19:49:10 PDT by PhilipFreneau
160 Posted on 10/03/2001 19:53:27 PDT by father_elijah
LOL! ROFL!
Did Werner von Braun stop being a German when he came to America? Do the Cambodian refugees stop being Cambodian when they come to America? Do people automatically become white anglo-saxon protestants by arriving and taking the oath of allegiance? How many generations has it taken for black African slaves to be regarded as Americans?
Granted that we don't go for hyphenated Americans here at Free Republic, I still say you're a bunch of immigrants, I haven't seen any Choctaw or Cherokee or Apache or Navajo posters of late. So are you a Texan-American or just a run-of-the-mill average anti-Arab racist?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
161 Posted on 10/03/2001 22:22:22 PDT by ankaboot
162 Posted on 10/03/2001 23:06:40 PDT by secretagent
163 Posted on 10/03/2001 23:31:16 PDT by xclusiv1
"If you are an American born citizen then how can you be a Palestian ?"
You referred to Germans, Cambodians et al who are naturalized citizens but they aren't American born citizens. That was the question. You can not be American born and be a Palestian too unless you renounce your citizenship. Of course, then you aren't technically, ideologically or philosophically an American.
Americans aren't hyphenated nor do we bear any allegiance another flag. Your agenda is showing, ankaboot. You are not only an insufferable, ignorant bore but you are a fraud and a phoney as well. Any response to your poorly disguised drivel is a waste of time and far better than you deserve. Why not enroll in a literacy course it would be a better use of your time and ours.
164 Posted on 10/04/2001 07:14:21 PDT by Darlin'
165 Posted on 10/04/2001 07:21:01 PDT by Antoninus
The FIRST question I would ask of all the "respected" leaders who hold to the Islamic religion / the Islamic world-view is this:
According to your holy book, the Koran, who is an *infidel*?
Allah teaches you in the Koran that infidels are his enemies. Do you view infidels as your personal enemies?
Does Allah teach you in the Koran to love your enemies, like the Christian God does?
We know the Koran teaches you to live and relate to other people in peace and tolerance. Do these "other people" include those who aren't members of the Islamic religion ("infidels")?
Does Allah teach you in the Koran that it is NOT OK to kill people UNLESS they are infidels?
Do you approve of, and support those of the Islamic religion who kill infidels (those not of the Islamic religion)?
And here's the big one:
Will you denounce, here and now, in no UNCERTAIN terms, Islamics who kill, and seek to kill, those who don't believe in Allah, don't believe in the Koran, and aren't members of the Islamic religion (a/k/a "infidels")?
166 Posted on 10/04/2001 08:16:46 PDT by Matchett-PI
Wow! Columbo, I had my share of hate messages on other news groups. I still don't want more here.
167 Posted on 10/04/2001 09:28:57 PDT by Last
Hi Talcminer,
Bill Clinton said that "I did not have sex with that women" at least three times, and he had a whole cadre of people to back him up.
Good point. Clinton had obvious reaons for lying. Bin Laden has none. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that he's not your enemy. I'm saying that he had nothing to do with the attacks.
Think about it. Bin Laden knows that we're gonna hit him anyway. He's been chased by the CIA for years. He has nothing to fear. He even declared after the attacks that "America is our enemy until they withdraw their forces from the gulf", yet he continues: "But as a Muslim, I do not lie. I have nothing to do with the attacks and I oppose to killing innocent men, women, and children". No more to say. End of this point for me. You can believe what you want but God will give victory to the truth eventually.
Do you think that the attackers, whether Muslim or whatever, did not anticipate such reactions from the American people against Muslims? They did. And you're walking right on the trail they drew for you. Please at least consider that fact.
168 Posted on 10/04/2001 09:43:58 PDT by Last
"..I had my share of hate messages on other news groups. I still don't want more here."
Tsk, tsk. Did you ever consider those messages might just be about you and not your indeterminate heritage. BTW, did you ever decide which story you want to go with ? Are you a hyphenated Muslim American or a Palestian ?
169 Posted on 10/04/2001 10:10:47 PDT by Darlin'
Born in America to Palestinian parents is the simplest way to understand that. Ask last, perhaps he'll tell you since he likes you best of all his attackers.
Any response to your poorly disguised drivel is a waste of time and far better than you deserve.
I'll try very hard not to feel deprived when you stop wasting your time, then.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
170 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:18:15 PDT by ankaboot
Who is the better son of Adam?
171 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:21:23 PDT by Mark17
That isn't going to happen. Because, you see, that teaching is in perfect harmony with islam. Quoted below is a short excerpt of a longer article:
Islam is an imperialist religion, more so than Christianity has ever been, and in contrast to Judaism. The Koran, Sura 5, verse 85, describes the inevitable enmity between Moslems and non-Moslems: "Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans." Sura 9, verse 5, adds: "Then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them, in every strategem [of war]." Then nations, however mighty, the Koran insists, must be fought "until they embrace Islam."
For the entire article, please go HERE
172 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:33:09 PDT by neutrino
The word does not appear in the Qur'an or in any Hadith, it is a Christian term.
Allah teaches you in the Koran that infidels are his enemies.
This is false. He makes no mention of "infidels," whatever those are.
Do you view infidels as your personal enemies?
I still have no idea what the word means as you're using it. As originally used, by Christians, it meant "muslims." I know of no corresponding term in any other religion, including Islam.
Will you denounce, here and now, in no UNCERTAIN terms, Islamics who kill, and seek to kill, those who don't believe in Allah, don't believe in the Koran, and aren't members of the Islamic religion (a/k/a "infidels")?
More nonsense talk. ALLAH gives permission to defend against attacking forces by killing the combatants, and directs the execution of murderers, armed robbers, rapists, and those who betray the public trust or cause bloodshed. When a specific group of pagans murdered an encampment of muslims in violation of an established treaty, action was directed against them. The killing of people who are blind to the Qur'an is not anywhere allowed or required by any teaching of Islam, that is a fantasy and whoever does something like that is not muslim. There is no correspondence to the Christian practice of the Dark Ages, of burning at the stake those who dispute some priest's interpretation of Scripture.
You seem caught up in some kind of paranoid fantasy. I can't help you with it, it originates in your own heart, not in any reality connected with muslims. There are muslims, Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, and people of no particular faith or belief, and there are those who deny faith, and those who attack people of faith. "Infidel" isn't in that list. It's a Christian fantasy from the Crusades, calling people who believe in One God -- that is, muslims -- "infidels." There isn't even a word in Islam for "heretic," as there is from the Inquisition -- a Christian phenomenon. Muslims are not congruent with Christians -- were we congruent, we'd be Christians. The terms don't fit. Neither does the fear in your presentation, unless you've set yourself in opposition to the muslims, in which case it originates with you, not us. Reasoned discussion does not address emotional sensationalism and paranoia. Perhaps Ritalin or Prozac contains your answers.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
173 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:33:16 PDT by ankaboot
Bump.
174 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:39:13 PDT by WDG55513
From Are There Any Muslim Freepers? --
"Relate to them of the two sons of Adam with truth: how each offered, and it was accepted from one and not accepted from the other, who said 'I'll kill you.' He answered 'God accepts from the responsible. Even if you stretch out your hand to kill me, I will not stretch out my hand to kill you, surely I fear God, the Lord of the worlds. Really I would rather you bear the burden of sin on me and your own sin and become an owner of the Fire. That is the return of aggression.'" [Q5:27-29]
So Abel died and Cain took on whatever burden of sin Abel had had. Abel was the better son of Adam.
I'm sure the answers to most of the questions you might like to ask me will already be found in these Threads:
Waiting for the Antichrist
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War"
A Moment For Truth
Mr. Sharon's obduracy endangers Israel
Islam 610 AD - Present: The Endless Jihad
One nation, under Islam
five-page handwritten document found
Taliban asks bin Laden to leave country
Delusions Of Grandeur
The Sanitation of Islam
Confusion over FBI's hijacker list
The plight of Muslims
"Extreme" CAIR?
ODIGO Says Workers Warned
Far Gone In 30 Seconds
Arab Ministers Denounce Attacks
What Muslim Would Write: 'The time of fun ...
Are There Any Muslim Freepers?
Adam Our Father
Civilization Envy
Saudi Friends Saudi Foes
Scribes of the new racism
The Muslim Vote
Avenging the flying pigs
Afghanistan and the world await US response
Over $100 million assets frozen
Will they fool us twice?
Why this American now feels safer
Getting to the Root
The True Islamic Morals
It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to find particular passages in my file copies of the Threads.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
175 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:46:39 PDT by ankaboot
176 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:49:15 PDT by getoffmylawn
177 Posted on 10/04/2001 22:58:27 PDT by Mark17
178 Posted on 10/04/2001 23:10:39 PDT by Libertina
179 Posted on 10/04/2001 23:17:09 PDT by connectthedots
180 Posted on 10/05/2001 00:52:53 PDT by Vigilanteman
The useful idiots (blind followers of glib, cynical opportunists) who only believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE aren't capable of engaging in "reasoned discussion"; they can't face "reality".
I hope you don't fall into one of those two catagories.
We'll find out. Do you agree with this terrorist expert's assessment of REALITY (whose commentary I'm posting below), or will you arrogantly prescribe your mind-altering, reality suspending medicine for him, too?
TERRORISM AND THE GLOBAL CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS
By Louis Rene Beres - Freeman Center for Strategic Studies - 1 October 2001
Terrorism, to be sure, is America's overriding problem for the immediate future. But terrorism is not really our underlying problem. It is rather the palpably barbarous tactic of a methodically planned and determinedly apocalyptic war. Directed initially against Israel and the United States, this fevered attack will soon spread - perhaps uncontrollably - to large cities in Europe and possibly even to various parts of Asia.
This war is a sustained and forseeably catastrophic Arab/Islamic assault against the West,a civilizational struggle in which a resurgent medievalism now seeks to bring fear, paralysis and death to "unbelievers."
It goes without saying that an overwhelming number of Muslims throughout the world are uninvolved in this assault, or even tacitly opposed to it (few Muslims will oppose it openly), but many millions of others in many countries are already prepared to enter Paradise by becoming "martyrs." In the next several months, the preferred terrorism tactic in this war is likely to involve chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
Our truest war is not against Osama Bin Laden or even the particular Arab/Islamic states that nurture and encourage his program for mass murder. Even if Bin Laden and every other identifiably major terrorist were apprehended and prosecuted in authoritative courts of justice, millions of others in the Arab/Islamic world would not cease their impassioned destruction of ____"infidels____."
These millions, like the monsters who destroyed the World Trade Center and attacked the Pentagon, would not intend to do evil. On the contrary, they would mete out death to innocents for the sake of a presumed divine expectation, prodding the killing of Israelis, Americans and Europeans with utter conviction and complete purity of heart.
Sanctified killers, these millions would generate an incessant search for more ___"Godless"___ victims. Though mired in blood, their search would be tranquil and self-assured, born of the knowledge that its perpetrators were neither evil nor infamous, but heroic and "sacrificial."
For those millions engaged in an Arab/Islamic war against the West, violence and the sacred are always inseparable. To understand the rationale and operation of current terrorism against the United States, including the September 11th attacks, it is first necessary to understand these conceptions of the sacred. Then, and only then, will it become clear that Arab/Islamic terror against the United States is, at its heart, a manifestation of religious worship known as "sacrifice."
This is the truest meaning of Arab/Islamic terrorism against our country. It is a form of sacred violence oriented toward the sacrifice of both enemies and martyrs. It is through the purposeful killing of Americans, any Americans, that the Holy Warrior embarked upon Jihad can buy himself free from the penalty of dying. It is only through such cowardly killing, and not through diplomacy, that ___"Allah's" will may be done___.
When America has understood that terrorism is only a tactic, and that it is a tactic related to Islamic sacrifice, it will be able to confront a particularly lethal enemy, one that already has within its capabilities the capacity to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions of American men, women and children.
Until now, this is an understanding that has lent itself to insubstantial theorizing. Now, immediately, Arab/Islamic terrorism should be recognized, at least in part, as a bloody and sacred act of mediation between sacrificers and their deity.
America is now routinely characterized as a "cancer" in the Arab/Islamic world. A recent article from an Egyptian newspaper speaks of "the cancer, the malignant wound, in the body of Arabism, for which there is no cure but eradication." Such references are far more than a vile metaphor. They are profoundly theological descriptions of a despised enemy that must be excised, that is, "liquidated." Where this "liquidation" would be accomplished by self-sacrifice, possibly even terrorism involving weapons of mass destruction, it would be life-affirming for the killers. Naturally, some Arab/Islamic governments and movements would deny such end-of-the-world thinking, but it operates nonetheless.
What is to be done? The truth of the terrorist threat to the United States is vastly more grotesque than what is commonly understood. We face suicidal mass killings with unconventional weapons in the future not because there exists a small number of pathological murderers, but because we are embroiled - however unwittingly - in an authentic clash of civilizations. While we all wish it weren't so, wishing will get us nowhere. Our only hope is to acknowledge the true source of our now existential danger, and proceed to fight the real war from there.~
LOUIS RENE BERES was educated at Princeton (Ph.D., 1971) and is author of many books and articles dealing with terrorism and war. Professor Beres was recently appointed Academic Advisor for the Freeman Center For Strategic Studies.
TERRORISM AND THE GLOBAL CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS
BTTT
181 Posted on 10/05/2001 08:17:33 PDT by Matchett-PI
I have said, or at least intimated, that we are looking at an apocalyptic scenario. It increasingly looks to me as if we are looking at more than one -- four, at least, each different and all interlocking. Radical Wahhabism -- for which see at least two excellent analyses from others in other Threads in which I've posted -- is somewhat central to one apocalyptic set.
The crucial element as far as I'm concerned is evidence -- proof according to Revealed knowledge, I'm not talking about hauling bin Laden to court. I am waiting for three Signs, and there are indications but not conclusive evidence. A Sign is irrefutable, plain, clear, unambiguous, not susceptible to "interpretation" or any form of unclarity, and generally -- perhaps worldwide, perhaps not -- visible and manifest to all for whom it is a Sign.
I don't know how deeply I'll be going into all this in these Threads, we'll see as matters develop. I do not want it on my head that I've declared a profound religious event in error. I do NOT see the Signs I know to expect, let that be clear. When and if I do, I'll say so.
As to the details of this post from Matchett-PI, I'll look at it later. It is surely only a fraction of the picture, and is likely to have misconstructions.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
182 Posted on 10/05/2001 12:13:46 PDT by ankaboot
BUMP it to the top, IMO you are not wrong!
183 Posted on 10/05/2001 12:38:49 PDT by defeat_the_dem_igods
After a long day followed by eight hours on line clearing my InBox, the latter really sounds attractive, but it would require too much effort.
Terrorism, to be sure, is America's overriding problem for the immediate future. But terrorism is not really our underlying problem. It is rather the palpably barbarous tactic of a methodically planned and determinedly apocalyptic war. Directed initially against Israel and the United States, this fevered attack will soon spread - perhaps uncontrollably - to large cities in Europe and possibly even to various parts of Asia.
Professor Beres posits a "global clash of civilizations" that has been formulated to replace "the communist threat" with "the muslim threat" and then goes on to depict what cannot be in any way called a "civilization," a mindless horde poised to wreak havoc, methodically and with malice aforethought, on a somewhat ill-defined "western civilization" somehow a projection of Americanism (whatever that is) over the "free world." An entire religion, as it were, one fifth of the human race, setting out deliberately to make happen what the same religion says happens despite all efforts to forestall it.
As if the entirety of Judaism would conspire to produce with their own hands the Messiah and commencement of an Eternal Kingdom that they believe God will deliver with His Own Hands. As if the entirety of Christianity would conspire to produce with their own hands the Battle of Armageddon and the events of the Book of Revelation that modern science can now make happen (plagues, fire from the sky, etc) and that this would result in the return of Jesus.
That's quite a stretch.
This is not a new bogeyman, and handily overlooks the considerable congruence between what we consider "American" and what muslims know as "Islam" from their own histories, however distant in the past.
However, what arises -- or threatens to arise, it appears -- in the terminally collapsed millennial muslim world, from the ruins of the tyrannical Abbasid Dynasty and Arab Empire and its successor dynasties and empires, is an apocalyptic expectation that is actually a common feature to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Professor Beres conveniently overlooks the Judaic expectation of The Messiah, who is a regular topic of conversation in ultra-orthodox rabbinical communities, some of whom also propagate "The Noachide Covenant" as what Jesus allowed for the Gentiles as a sort of second-class citizenship in a Jewish Kingdom of Everything;
and Professor Beres conveniently overlooks the Christian expectation of the return of Jesus in triumph and the commencement of a millennial kingdom after some inconvenient populations are annihilated amid some events that would challenge the abilities of Hollywood's most creative talents.
The rabbis long ago identified their "False Messiah" as Jesus and are now waiting for the real messiah who will establish Jewish rule over the universe forever. Christians decide every year who it is but are still awaiting the Anti-Christ, another "False Messiah," to be destroyed by the Son of man in some conceptions, and the angels come in the clouds and the matter is settled. Muslims anticipate a Beast coming forth who talks to mankind, another set of cataclysmic geologic events, a False Messiah and the return of Jesus to kill him, and an Imam Mahdi who is awaited from the tribe of Quraysh among the Arabs, whereupon the Arabs will rule the universe forever. And God's is the only vote, everybody else uses weapons of miraculous power.
A lot of people are in for some surprises, I think, not the least of whom are those who don't expect any of it to happen -- the Persians thought it was happening when Khomeini took the embassy hostages and pushed "The Great Satan" up against the wall without firing a shot. They're still referring to Khomeini as "The Imam," a title reserved for the messianic figure of the Shi'ah in a fourth apocalyptic scenario.
Seems to be a lot of expectation floating around. I hope it's not catching, but of course it is.
I deal with this in Guide to Events that I'm not going to quote here, suggesting that we avoid Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia -- the acronym says it all -- and defining the term. It seems to be spreading like wildfire and everyone wants to save someone by killing a bunch of people, which seems to be the most popular idea of how to usher in a reign of peace in a Kingdom of God of some form or description known only to the keepers of the sacred secrets.
Probably we'd get further in that direction by just putting one foot in front of the other on the ground like we've been doing, and leaving fantasy on the television screen and in adventure novels. Reality is sufficient to induce sobriety these days, things will get strange after what's happened to America, and walking into apocalyptic scenarios without the evidence of clear and unmistakable Signs recognizable to everybody of any faith just does not seem to me the way to go.
After all -- should a third of the muslims follow bin Laden and call him The Mahdi, we'll all know better. And they'll all be pretty much in the same place, or at least gathered into groups we can spot from satellite coverage ... or maybe we can get a United Nations edict to ignore The End Of The World.
That should take care of it.
Hmmm ... Islam and the End of the World is mentioned in Waiting for the Antichrist -- hmmm ... I wrote it. Now if I can get this flat-bed scanner's OCR software to function properly, maybe I can post it.
Well, I think the careful analysis of what are offered as Signs by the religions of Abraham is at least as sensible a basis for expectation as a "two titans" struggle that completely overlooks enduring realities of the world's monotheistic religions.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
184 Posted on 10/06/2001 03:50:05 PDT by ankaboot
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
185 Posted on 10/06/2001 18:38:39 PDT by ankaboot
None of them has tried to excuse the attack.
These are REAL Muslims. The terrorists are counterfeit.
No, I'm not Islamic, never have been and I have no Arab blood. I do have eyes and ears.
186 Posted on 10/06/2001 18:46:18 PDT by LibKill
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