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In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.1 Posted on 09/19/2001 10:47:16 PDT by XBob
Top Shi'ite Cleric Bans Muslims From U.S. War ``It is not permissible for any Islamic party, country, ruler or political movement to extend any military, security or economic assistance to the United States in its war against any Muslim country or any Muslim faction,'' Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah said in a religious ruling faxed to Reuters. Fadlallah is a former spiritual mentor of Lebanon's Iranian-backed Hizbollah guerrilla group, but he is widely respected as a scholar among Shi'ites abroad, including moderates.
Muhammad, Islam, and Terrorism The below following article "Muhammad, Islam, and Terrorism" was written nearly two and a half years before the terror attack of September 11th, 2001. This tragedy has shown again how important it is to understand the reasons and dynamics fuelling Islamic terrorism. Determining the right response is not easy. But some kinds of response are definitely wrong.
Forged in Soviet Conflict, Taliban is 'Most Extreme' Islamic Faction George Freidman of Stratfor, a private intelligence gathering service, has called the Taliban "the most extreme" form of Islam. "The Iranians are considered by them as liberals," he added.
Al-Ukhuwwatu Fiy Allahi/Brotherhood in Allah (deceit in the name of Allah) "Every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim. He does not oppress him nor turn him over. Whoever addresses his brother's needs, Allah addresses his needs. Whoever relieves a Muslim from some hardship in this life, Allah will relieve him from a hardship onQiyama. Whoever conceals [the faults of] another Muslim, Allah will conceal [his faults] on the day ofQiyama."Muslim and Bukhari
Taliban leader summons religious scholars to jihad council In a statement printed in the Taliban-controlled Shariat daily newspaper, Omar said the ulema, or senior scholars, would be called on to issue a fatwa possibly demanding holy war in the event of a US attack.
600 Clerics meet in 2-3 days to discuss formal declaration of "Holy War" against US
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon if US Retaliates He defended the Palestinians celebrating in the streets after the terrorist attacks because they have "sustained injustice since 1948," which refers to the year Israel became a state.
Taliban declare Holy War against United States
Terror Groups Met Twice to Plot New Holy War Against U.S., Israel
Retaliation by U.S.will spark holy war
Pakistan Muslims Say They Will Obey Afghan Jihad Order The head of a grouping of 35 Pakistani Islamic organizations said Wednesday they would have to obey any Taliban order for a religious war if the United States attacked Afghanistan.
Maulana Sami-ul Haq, chairman of the Pakistan and Defense Council that includes 35 pro-Taliban Islamic groups, warned Pakistan's military leader General Pervez Musharraf against backing the U.S. campaign against the Taliban and their ``guest'' Osama bin Laden.
Haq's statements at a news conference in Rawalpindi, beside the capital Islamabad, coincided with a gathering of clerics in the Afghan capital Kabul that could issue a call for jihad, or a religious war, against the United States and its supporters.
``If the ulema give an edict of jihad against American aggression and they also use Pakistan for it, then the entire ulema of the Islamic world and Pakistan will have to support that edict of jihad,'' Haq said.
THE FAILURE OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE AND THE ROAD AHEAD FOR AMERICA
Protecting Muslims while rooting out Islamists
Crack down hard on the Islamic institutions that funnel Muslim youth into jihad (sacred war) activities. This is a particularly British problem. For about a decade, these youths have signed on for such acceptable foreign activities as studying at Islamic seminaries or working for Islamic charities, which have then served as recruiting devices for jihad against non-Muslims in such places as Bosnia, Chechnya and Kashmir. These men clearly serve as potential cadres for attacks within Britain, perhaps elsewhere.
Worry about Islamist "sleepers". These individuals go quietly about their business until one day they are called into action. Ali A Mohamed, a naturalised US citizen born in Egypt, reached the rank of sergeant in the US army; earlier this year, he pleaded guilty to scouting out the American embassy in Nairobi as a bombing target on behalf of bin Laden, as well as assorted other tasks.
Combat the broader climate of hatred and extremism among Muslim populations resident in the West that has repeatedly lead to terrorism. Rashid Baz, the Lebanese-born delivery driver who randomly killed a Hasidic Jewish boy on the Brooklyn Bridge in March 1994, one report found, "lived in a milieu that cultivated terrorism" and "encouraged him to perpetrate violence".
Listen to the advice of anti-Islamist Muslims, the people first threatened by Islamism, who know it from closest proximity, and who can help penetrate its clandestine hierarchies.
British Muslim extremists urge young Muslims to fight against US At a meeting of the Al- Muhajiroun organisation in Birmingham at the weekend, a group of 50 young men and women was encouraged to travel to Afghanistan and give their lives in the defence of Islam.
"Martyrdom operatives will be rewarded in heaven," one speaker declared.
2 Posted on 09/19/2001 10:51:43 PDT by Manny Festo
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Here is a interesting Hindu take on Islam. The author does not spare his feelings at all.
4 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:17:12 PDT by Kalashnikov_68
that part sounds just like some of the 'christian' rants on FR I have been subject to, if you take the meanings and not the strange verbage.
5 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:23:40 PDT by XBob
My daughters and I were discussing Mohammed the other night. We wondered kind of religious background he came from. In other words, What religion was practiced by his friends and relatives before he introduced Islam?
So we looked him up in several books we have, including the Pictorial History of Philosphy, by Dagobert D. Runes, Philosophical Library , NY. (pp 166-167)
It seems idolatry was practiced in his area, but Mohammed changed that.
We also learned, from the book, that "He did not feel he was a saint, and consciously refrained from performing miracles."
6 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:24:08 PDT by syriacus
So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???"
Or was he intentionally using the term "crusade" as an allusion to what's coming.
7 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:25:46 PDT by sam_paine
Here is a interesting Hindu take on Islam. The author does not spare his feelings at all.
Thank you for the informative link.
8 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:26:25 PDT by syriacus
Here's MY review:
It's making my eyes glaze over.
Michael
9 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:27:12 PDT by Wright is right!
Make no mistake. This is going to end up a war against "Islam" whether or not we say so, when we begin it.
Islam, contrary to "W" is not a "peaceful religion" (see what everyone has posted, up above). It's only the fundamentalists we're fighting right now, but the moderates are going to be drawn into it by default.
This is a 900 year old score that's been waiting to be settled and, whether we like it or not:
A. This has about a 85% probability in turning into WW III.
B. This has about a 95% probability of turning from a war against "terrorism" into a war against "Islam".
I calls 'em as I sees 'em...
11 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:40:19 PDT by East Bay Patriot
I'll have to remember that...
"I consiously refrain from performing miracles." is my new credo.
12 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:48:13 PDT by sharktrager
I, too, will consciously refrain from performing miracles --at least for the duration.
13 Posted on 09/19/2001 11:55:59 PDT by Hobey Baker
Mohammed was a radical something (I haven't been able to determine what), born in Mecca, he was run out of Mecca as a young man by the people there. He sought refuge in Medina and was welcomed by the Jews there in Medina, for about 17 years. He started his writings and gathering Medina Jews for his army and began to attack other tribes in the area of Medina, built his army and trained his Jewish Generals, until they were able to attack Mecca and beat his old enemies. Then the Jews got fed up with him, and quit his army, and were then attacked by his remaining army and killed. He was initially a minor husband of a rich woman in Medina and took her riches to start his career.
So, Mohammed is a puzzlement, who turned on just about everyone who befriended him. Must have been quite a talker though. I guess he reminds me of bill clinton.
14 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:00:57 PDT by XBob
According to Paul Johnson's History Of Christianity, Mohammed was a Monophysite Christian -- i.e., a Christian who did not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. He simplified Christian doctrine for Arabic consumption, added the idea of conversion by the sword for local political effectiveness, and accepted the role of Prophet of the new faith of Islam after it became the dominant religious and political force in the region. Within twenty years, the Monophysites had nearly all been absorbed into Islam.
Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit the Palace Of Reason:
http://palaceofreason.com
15 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:01:37 PDT by fporretto
I calls 'em as I sees 'em...
20/20 uncorrected.
Arab-Americans can help cause by exposing terrorist sympathizers If the Arab-Americans really want to show (not just talk about) their loyalty to America, they must immediately identify, locate and turn over to the authorities all terrorist sympathizers in their midst. To do less is to show the world that their words of sympathy and allegiance are only lies. 1 Posted on 09/13/2001 09:47:10 PDT by jimkress
Muhammad, Islam, and Terrorism Apart from many peaceful Muslims who are themselves unaware of the material presented below, there are also educated, moderate Muslims who do not agree with such terrorist acts and interpret these passages of the Qur'an and these precedents in the life of Muhammad differently. They would not interpret them as justifying atrocities as committed by Islamic terrorist groups. The problem is that those Muslims who oppose the radicals are themselves in danger and fear of becoming the target of the radicals in Islam.
I know that there are "moderates" who disagree with the extremists, but the problem is that disagreement is not enough. You need a willingness to oppose.
The problem is that, no matter how much the "moderates" disagree with the extremists, they do not consider taking the side of non-Muslims against Muslims to be a legitimate option. The extremists, no matter how extreme, are still considered "family", while non-Muslims are still considered to be outsiders. "You never take the side of outsiders, no matter how right, against family, no matter how wrong" is their effective thought process
What caused America to prosper was the cultural attitude that someone who exhibited the attitudes of a "good American" (honesty, working hard, and supporting his family) was "one of us" regardless of race, nationality, or religion.
35 Posted on 09/18/2001 16:22:20 PDT by SauronOfMordor
16 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:07:39 PDT by Manny Festo
Stand to Reason Commentary - The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity? It's my understanding that much of Islam has been spread by the edge of the sword. That isn't because Muslim advocates were particularly violent. It's because their religion actually advocates this kind of thing. The difference between that and Christianity is that when Christianity was spread by the edge of the sword it was done so in contradistinction to the actually teachings of Christianity. This is when individual people who claim to be Christians actually did things that were inconsistent with their faith.
17 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:08:38 PDT by Manny Festo
"So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???" Or was he intentionally using the term "crusade" as an allusion to what's coming"
All my Moslem friends are generally very peaceful and honorable, but like Christians, will fight. Like radical Christians and Jews, the Moslems all 3 religions believe also in the same God, but selectively pick portions of the Koran/Bible to justify their hegonomy.
I just picked this one as one of the passages which 'justifies' their actions. Remember too that all non-christians are going to hell, and 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.'
I think W just made a normal choice of his normal vocabulary in choosing the word 'crusade'. Just a long term 'war', not a single battle. Unfortunately, it was taken in the meaning used in the middle-ages. He is now using the synonym, for his meaning, 'campaign'.
18 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:10:12 PDT by XBob
To Kill and to Die in the Name of Allah excerpts
September 11, 2001
"In the worst terrorist attack ever against the United States, hijackers (believed to be connected to Osama Bin Laden's Islamic terrorist group) struck at preeminent symbols of the nations wealth and might, flying airlines into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and Killing or injuring thousands of people."October 19, 1994 " A powerful bomb, apparently placed by Islamic militants opposed to the Arab-Israeli peace negotiations, blew up a crowded bus during the morning rush hour in the heart of Tel Aviv, Israel, killing 22 people and wounding 48."
July 18, 1994 " A huge bomb placed by Muslim extremists exploded destroying a seven- story downtown building housing two Jewish groups in Buenos Aires, Argentina. At least 26 people were killed and 127 were injured."
February 26, 1993 " A tremendous underground explosion believed to be caused by a bomb placed by Muslim extrimists, shook the 110-story twin towers of Manhattan's World Trade Center,inNew York, killing at least five people, injuring more than 1000, and sending tens of thousands of workers fleeing for their lives down crowded smoke-filled stairs ."
May 4, 1992 "13 Egyptian Christians were shot dead by Muslim fundamentalists in Mansheit Nasser, Egypt. Ten Christian farmers were ambushed and murdered while working in their fields. A Christian teacher was shot in the local school while teaching a class of ten- year olds. A Christian doctor was shot dead outside his home."
These are just few samples out of thousands of terrorist attacks, which all have one element in common : they were all committed by Muslim extremists. While there are extremists in other groups, who are capable of committing acts of violence, it seems that violence committed by Muslim extremists exceeds the violence of other groups.
Why do Muslim extremists act this way?
Are Muslims inherently inhumane, savage and evil?- of course not. Muslims are ordinary people, just like anybody else. They are fathers, brothers and sons. They could be doctors, engineers and lawyers. They are your co-workers, and your next door neighbors. Violence is committed by a minority of Muslim extremists.So, what goes on their minds when they act violently? To understand this one must understand an important and dangerous Islamic teaching called "Jihad" ( or Holy war).
It is important to understand that not every Arab is a Muslim , not every Muslim is an Arab, and not every Muslim is a extremist.
It is also important to know that in exercising Jihad, Muslim extremists may not think they are trying to maliciously hurt others, but rather they are only obeying God's commandments. And in doing so, they are assuring themselves a place in Paradise
19 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:13:15 PDT by Manny Festo
God made a promise to Israel-
Where does it all end, all made promises. All using religion in their Will To Power
Comments like yours disgust me.
Next time get it in writing from God, rather than heresay.
20 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:14:20 PDT by Helms
17 - I concur
21 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:16:40 PDT by XBob
"Next time get it in writing from God, rather than heresay.
We DID. :)
-djk
22 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:30:21 PDT by Djk (Djk@TASP.NET)
Gen 16:10-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her [Hagar], I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. {Ishmael: that is, God shall hear} And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. {that is, he will be against his half-brother, Isaac}
Gen 17:19-22 And God said [to Abraham], Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
It's in writing from God.
23 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:30:24 PDT by kinsman redeemer
Mohammed was educated by private Jewish and Christian turors when he was a boy. His desire was to unite the Arab world in religious unity, as he saw how that unity benefited the Jews and Christians. His original intent was to create a sect of Jewdiasm, but the Jews flatly rejected his views as heresy.
He decided that the Arabs needed one god to worship, because they were worshipping about 100,00 different gods at the time. From the plethora of idols worshipped, he chose Allah, the moon-god.
The koran was not compiled by him, but by his followers. Whenever he would speak, a stenographer would record his speaches and the transcripts would be saved in a basket...the older speaches on the bottom. Later, it was decided to complie all of the transcripts into one text. Since the most recent writings were on top, they were recorded first, all the way to the oldest. Today, when reading the koran, the oldest of his sayings are at the back and the newest, at the front. You'll notice that the newest are the most vicious and restrictive, because as his following grew, so did his rejection and hence, we see his anger against those that don't hold his views.
He is as he was. A heretic.
oops...how insensitive of me.
baa
25 Posted on 09/19/2001 12:57:19 PDT by woollyone
oops.
"Jewdiasm" s/b "Judiasm". Sorry.
26 Posted on 09/19/2001 13:00:22 PDT by woollyone
Where do ya'll get this "moon god" garbage? Allah is the God of the Jews and Christians. The Koran attributes Allah as the God Of Abraham.
Moon-god. Sheesh. And I thought the Mormans had it rough.
27 Posted on 09/19/2001 13:07:24 PDT by AppyPappy
Pappy,
Respectfully, Allah is the moon-god & according to the founding of Mohammed, he declared allah to be the god of Abraham...which doesn't necessarily make it truth, rather just the man's declaration. Of course he twisted much of the Biblical record. For instance, he declared that it was Ishmael that Abraham was told to sacrafice, not Isaac. Just like much of the lies of the pit, just enough truth to make the lie believable.
please, do look it up for yourself.
baa
28 Posted on 09/19/2001 13:16:27 PDT by woollyone
So which religion, in fact, is truly intolerant?
Project: Open Book (On the current persecution of Christians in the Islamic world)
29 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:41:45 PDT by Manny Festo
good points Manny - maybe you can get some sense into donh's head.
30 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:43:39 PDT by XBob
More documentation in POST 29
31 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:48:11 PDT by Manny Festo
To: XBob So, if you wish to "eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode. ", do nothing to disturb them, and take no action. These people are serious, and seriously deranged. In our bible, it says, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"--are we therefore sufficiently deranged that LA should be occupied by Allah's forces until we come to our senses? This is holy war rhetoric, not a rational argument for adventurous foreign wars against non-aggressors. This is a bad, bad idea which has been given little rational thought and with potentially devastating repercussions from any angle you look at it.
337 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:31:30 PDT by donh
=======
Christianity has it's share of nuts too, and in western society, including you -
""--are we therefore sufficiently deranged that LA should be occupied by Allah's forces until we come to our senses? "
This is exactly what you have been arguing for.
As I said before, you are nuts.
32 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:50:38 PDT by XBob
My problem is with being told not to consider religion as an operative factor in all of this, while at the same time being told Moslems should be allowed special dispensation because of their faith and regarded on behalf of it. Those who expect this are hypocritical and misguided. It can't be both ways and be credible. Since Islamic militant extremists are calling this a "holy" war, it is reasonable to presume THEY consider religion an operative, if not primary factor, and thus they have necessitated a discussion of their beliefs and its relevance. Finally, when one identifies and refers to himself by his religion, operating on that basis is unavoidable.
33 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:55:45 PDT by rebelsoldier
Don't they believe he went to heaven on his horse??? That says it all.
34 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:57:51 PDT by Ann Archy
I know I'll get flamed for this but he kind of sounds like the joe smith of the camel jockey world.
36 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:04:56 PDT by alaskanfan
33 - I agree: "My problem is with being told not to consider religion as an operative factor in all of this, while at the same time being told Moslems should be allowed special dispensation because of their faith and regarded on behalf of it. Those who expect this are hypocritical and misguided. "
Very few of those who cite the Koran as being peacful, know nothing about it's origin, or have ever read it. I started reading it years ago, to give me an idea of the culture of where I was living (Egypt at the time). It has a lot of good stuff in it. But it also has a lot of bad and intolerant stuff in it, a small bit of which I quoted above.
37 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:14:14 PDT by XBob
This is exactly what you have been arguing for.
Oh? How so?
As I said before, you are nuts.
Yes, you say it frequently, often after issuing a bon mot like this one, or your previous prizewinner: "there were more German spies in Switzerland, than there were Swiss", which I also can't figure out, either on it's own, or what its point is in the discussion.
38 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:22:28 PDT by donh
Who says we are going to Afghanistan?
Give me a break. The government has been pumping Ben Laden into the ears of our whorish newspeople from day one of the attack. Do you seriously think any significant news arises from reporters doing investigative work? It's not a deep, dark secret that we have been preping for Afganistan for about 6 months now. Foreign diplomats have been briefed on this subject, and reported so to the news media.
340 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:01:48 PDT by donh
====
interesting, you admit you aren't any smarter than those in our dumbest profession, the major media.
39 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:26:03 PDT by XBob
you can't figure it out? " This is exactly what you have been arguing for. Oh? How so? "
dumber than our dumbest profession, read your own posts.
40 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:29:17 PDT by XBob
Expect the "jihadist appeasers" to get this thread pulled, too.
41 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:31:17 PDT by Stingray
interesting, you admit you aren't any smarter than those in our dumbest profession, the major media.
I see. What interesting logic. By the same reasoning, since you quote the koran, may I then assume that you are the same as an arab terrorist?
42 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:49:33 PDT by donh
"So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???""
Out of respect for other peaceful folks even if they hold ignorant and illogical beliefs. It is traditional practice in the US.
43 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:51:33 PDT by spunkets
dumber than our dumbest profession, read your own posts.
Apparently, you can't argue yourself out of a paper bag, so I will have to help you. There is zero logical connection to suggest in any manner that I am arguing for the benefits of an Islamic occupancy of Georgia, any more than I am arguing for the benefits of an American occupancy of Afganistan, and the best way to avoid any chance of the one, is to avoid the other, just as the best way to avoid islamic bombs in NY, would have been avoiding american bombs in Bagdad.
History suggests that one of the best ways to assure an occupancy of your country by foreign troops, is to occupy their country, but fail to kill them all.
44 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:00:15 PDT by donh
"Allah is the God of the Jews and Christians."
OK, so now I understand the source of your confusion. The Koran specifically denies the deity of Christ, or that He is God incarnate.
Here Muhammad calls Christians liars and calls for "Allah" to destroy them for worshipping Christ!
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Here Muhammad writes that Christ wasn't even crucified!
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Here Muhammad tells Christians not to lie about the Christ, and
calls Christ but just one of Allah's prophets, and even claims
that Allah had no son nor needed one!
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Here Muhammad repeats his claim that Christ "is but an apostle" of Allah, then chastises Christians, claiming they have turned away by worshipping Christ!
[5.75] The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.
Now, what does the Apostle John tell us of such "spirits?"
I John 4:1-3
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
I John 4:14-15
"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God."
II John 7,
"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Now you may not agree with any of this, but then that's the difference between Christianity and Islam: you are free to believe anything you wish in a Christian culture. You are not free to do so in a Muslim one.
Now, run along and get this thread pulled because you don't like the truth.
45 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:00:34 PDT by Stingray
42 - you continue to repeatedly prove my point.
46 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:05:12 PDT by XBob
And just in case you missed the point of my last post to you, the God of the Jews and Christians is the One that sent Christ - His only begotten Son - into the world to suffer and die for us.
Because Islam denies this, Allah is clearly not the same God as that of the Christians and Jews.
47 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:07:43 PDT by Stingray
44 - " just as the best way to avoid islamic bombs in NY, would have been avoiding american bombs in Bagdad"
As I said before, 'walk to work' !!!!!
You can't have your gas and be a coward too.
48 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:09:27 PDT by XBob
"The Koran attributes Allah as the God Of Abraham."
You could stand in your garage and call yourself a car. Would that make it so?
The Bible specifically denies both of the assertions you are making. Again, you may not believe that, but you do so contrary to the evidence presented to you on this thread.
What's your agenda here, Appy?
49 Posted on 09/20/2001 01:26:05 PDT by Stingray
What is your agenda behind these lies? You continously ignore the obvious in favor of self-serving falsehoods.
50 Posted on 09/20/2001 05:01:31 PDT by AppyPappy
You'll be happy to know I have succeeded so far.
Last night we had unexpected company, and I was tempted to multiply the cookies we had baked for my son's bake sale, so we could feed the multitude, but then I remembered my new credo.
Later, my wife pointed out we were running out of wine, but I went to the store instead of just turning some water in to wine.
It was a little tougher when I was giving my son his bath, because my inclination was to walk on the water to get the shampoo that was on the other side of the tub, but I was able to control myself and just reach across.
It's hard, but, like Mohammed, I have prevailed so far. Maybe I should start my own religion too.
51 Posted on 09/20/2001 05:40:30 PDT by sharktrager
You can't have your gas and be a coward too.
Yea, that sure makes us great nobel heros: trading 1/2 million+ dead Iraqi children for full tanks of gas. You must be so proud of how uncowardly that makes you.
52 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:22:34 PDT by donh
42 - you continue to repeatedly prove my point.
You have no sane point that you are able to articulate sufficiently to defend. Apparently, your latest theory is that the Koran is responsible for the terrorism we are experiencing. Leaving the solution being, I guess, the extermination or subjugation of all of Islam.
I can hardly wait to see the result of attempting to implement that program on the women and children of Islam, oh non-cowardly one.
53 Posted on 09/20/2001 06:30:08 PDT by donh
Wonderful. Thanks for that.
54 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:04:56 PDT by SkyPilot
"What is your agenda behind these lies? You continously ignore the obvious in favor of self-serving falsehoods."
LOL! Whatever. Your severe aversion to the truth clearly presented to you (not only here but on other threads) sufficiently illustrates who among us is posting "self-serving falsehoods."
Have a nice day.
55 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:18:29 PDT by Stingray
Your welcome. :)
56 Posted on 09/20/2001 09:19:58 PDT by Stingray
49 - "The Bible specifically denies both of the assertions you are making. "
That is a little bit hard to do, unless you are talking about prophesy. Mohammed was not born until 600 years after Jesus was born.
57 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:15:51 PDT by XBob
"People in glass houses..."
Being riddled with orders of genocide, slavery, subjection of women, and a host of general bizarreness, the Bible isn’t so pretty itself, sometimes.
58 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:21:53 PDT by Psycho_Bunny
52 - " You can't have your gas and be a coward too. Yea, that sure makes us great nobel heros: trading 1/2 million+ dead Iraqi children for full tanks of gas. You must be so proud of how uncowardly that makes you. "
When are you walking to work????? Please get off your mouth and walk, like you are pleading. As it was such a terrible thing, you should not be using any gas from the mid-east, period.
And if someone steals something of yours.... just forgive them, and offer them some more. You are still an idiot and keep on proving it. You never even learned the kindergarten lessons - you can give the class bully your lunch money, but it doesn't stop the muggings. Only when you bloddy his nose will he stop. GO BACK TO KINDERGARTEN AND LEARN SOMETHING!!!!!!
59 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:23:38 PDT by XBob
It would do you well to look at some of the "crap" in the Bible, too, before displaying your general ignorance.
60 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:24:26 PDT by Psycho_Bunny
53 - "Apparently, your latest theory is that the Koran is responsible for the terrorism we are experiencing. Leaving the solution being, I guess, the extermination or subjugation of all of Islam. "
Actually, no - just saying that it provides justification for lunatics like you.
Actually, all I am doing is practicing the 'christian' belief - 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.
GET TO WALKING. !!!!!!! AND GO TO KINDERGARTEN.
61 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:29:09 PDT by XBob
We also learned, from the book, that "He did not feel he was a saint, and consciously refrained from performing miracles."
WOW.
I must be a saint too.
All my life I have consciously refrained from performing miracles, and the odds are for the rest of my life I will probably continue refraining.
but I could, you know...
62 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:33:37 PDT by Publius6961
bump your 58 and my 61 - "Being riddled with orders of genocide, slavery, subjection of women, and a host of general bizarreness, the Bible isn’t so pretty itself, sometimes. "
63 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:34:08 PDT by XBob
Sorry, Manny, but I still continue to believe my own eyes and ears, not your irrational rants.
64 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:36:03 PDT by Publius6961
"The Urdu-language newspaper, the Punjab Post, offered 400,000 rupees to anyone who killed an American."
Declaration of WAR!!!
hmmm... Nothing here, move along...
65 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:38:03 PDT by bluetoad
Don't they believe he went to heaven on his horse??? That says it all.
But even their holy book does not say that there were any witnesses.
Right up there with "compassionate and merciful"; talk is cheap.
66 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:40:31 PDT by Publius6961
WOW. I must be a saint too.
Yes! Isn't this knowledge wonderful news for all of us? Perhaps all of us, even nonsaints, are only refraining from working miracles
I don't know about you, but I plan on enjoying my newly discovered non-powers!! : )
68 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:48:15 PDT by syriacus
bump your 58 and my 61 - "Being riddled with orders of genocide, slavery, subjection of women, and a host of general bizarreness, the Bible isn’t so pretty itself, sometimes. "
Incredible as it may sound, you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, nor issued a fatwah for insulting Christianity.
The fact that millions of animals masquerading as people have done so and continue to do so in the name of Islam, also apparently has escaped your notice.
69 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:50:30 PDT by Publius6961
please give a reference: ""The Urdu-language newspaper, the Punjab Post, offered 400,000 rupees to anyone who killed an American."
My Punjabi friends never seemed to have a problem with me or other Americans, and last time I was in the Punjab, though a few years ago, they were quite friendly.
70 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:51:09 PDT by XBob
Hank, before you dig yourself deeper, you should examine what's happened. Stingray has brought actual facts to the table to support his position, while you have made claims unsupported by any facts.
Until you counter with factual evidence to support your position, you look really foolish. Plus, based on the evidence Stingray has posted, you look like a Christian who doesn't understand his faith. That's a serious charge that you can prove false, if you have the facts to back you up.
I look forward to hearing your response to the challenges Stingray has presented you with.
71 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:51:15 PDT by savedbygrace
69 - "Incredible as it may sound, you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, nor issued a fatwah for insulting Christianity. The fact that millions of animals masquerading as people have done so and continue to do so in the name of Islam, also apparently has escaped your notice. "
Please note who posted this thread to begin with - me.
The Old Testament and the Koran are both full of bad things.
Sorry - my many Moslem friends are not animals masquerading as people, they are fine, honest, compassionate and honorable people, just as are my Christian friends.
I am ashamed of and disgusted by the small percentage of religious fanatics on both sides.
72 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:58:21 PDT by XBob
From a thread here on FR "Guide to Islam"
Allah -The Islamic word for God. Muslims worship the God of Abraham as described in the Book of Genesis and believe they are descended from this patriarch. Islam teaches that Allah is the only God and creator of the universe. Muslims usually offer praises when they speak Allah's name, such as "the merciful, beneficent, wise, the loving God."
73 Posted on 09/20/2001 10:59:28 PDT by AppyPappy
There is zero logical connection to suggest in any manner that I am arguing for the benefits of an Islamic occupancy of Georgia, any more than I am arguing for the benefits of an American occupancy of Afganistan, and the best way to avoid any chance of the one, is to avoid the other... History suggests that one of the best ways to assure an occupancy of your country by foreign troops, is to occupy their country, but fail to kill them all.
Im not sure, but it seems to me that you argue ..1) that we have not heretofore been sufficiently provoked to justify our striking back at them, plus 2) we're not absolutely positive who did this, coupled with 3) the fact that doing so would be futile unless we opt to kill them all, and of course 4) since the CIA set the supposed perpetrator up, why should we take it out on them? .Is that a fair summary?
In response, in summary I would say (perhaps I speak for others too?).. 1) we have been sufficiently provoked and our response should be "measured" to respond in kind. Many of us dont want to wait for the next act, which of course you argue isnt coming, or isnt going to be large, or may not come at all if we call off the dogs .. (I think youve said all 3?)
To 2), I say we shouldnt strike until we are positive, and it seems like theyre getting there. and 3) You merely have to destroy the network and frighten the host states into controlling their populations. It can be done, its been done before, it just requires some "re-education" as well as Force ( of course)
and 4)The CIA may muck things up, but these are the cards we've been dealt, and I dont feel like waiting to hear about how my kids were blown up by terrorists at school; which of course you say will never happen, or if it does, it doesent matter in the long run, or if it does, nothing could have been done about it , its out of our hands
In all fairness, I guess if this was '41 and the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor, youd be in favor of a WAR type, response.. Right ? (or would you be talking about how FDR set this up, and it all about trade routes and oil, and hegemony and the WAR Dept,and thats as far as they can reach, and who gives 2 spits about Pearl Harbor? Its not even a US State!!)
74 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:00:48 PDT by Nonstatist
69 - "you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, "
I suggest you read a book on US history, any book, even a liberal book of politicially correct US history lies.
75 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:06:24 PDT by XBob
"I can hardly wait to see the result of attempting to implement that program on the women and children of Islam, oh non-cowardly one."
Believe it or not, there were people in the West who said the same things about Nazis and Japanese Emperor-Worship as well.
20 years later, West Germany and Japan were two of the wealthiest nations in the world in addition to being two of our closest allies. The sons and daughters of Nazis and Kamikazes thanked us for liberating their countries from the tyranny of such toxic belief systems.
Do you think we should have left those belief systems intact?
76 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:20:09 PDT by cicero's_son
That is someone's definition of a word. That hardly qualifies as evidence to refute what Stingray has presented. Basically, what you quoted is from a marketing brochure. They are trying to make Islam palatable to Americans today.
As a Christian, it appears you are in need of an education on this subject. Please click on http://www.seafox.com/islam.html and read why Islam is a false religion.
77 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:20:54 PDT by savedbygrace
Having been caught in two race riots in the 1970s, I can attest to the overwhelming power of the group dynamic opposed to that of individual personal discretion, and people that attempt to deny this factor are extremely naive and in denial of reality. The tedious and endless repitition of the qualifying statement that: "Not all Moslems...(you fill in the blanks), goes without saying because, this is a reference to interpersonal relationships between one individual and another under normal everyday circumstances. This aspect is utterly inoperative when we are not under normal circumstances and when we are talking about whole groups and their relationship to other whole groups, especially in time of war or conflict when that very group identifies itself as a group, not individuals.
Then the group dynamic, different from the personal dynamic, assumes priority over the individual. This may be counter to the natural aspect of one to one single personal interaction, but in time of war, it is a learned defense mechanism response. To regard an enemy as a collection of independently motivated persons is preposterous, and attempting to assess and delineate them individually under normal circumstances is ridiculous. In short, the left demands we consider the Moslems we are at war with as separate and uniquely possessed individuals and not of a group mentality, while at the same time regarding them as a group whose faith and beliefs are beyond introspection or criticism as a group. This is logical paradox in thought and thus irrational, and a suicidal practice in battle.
78 Posted on 09/20/2001 11:48:22 PDT by rebelsoldier
"The US has never once gone to war with anyone, nor issued a fatwah for insulting Christianity."
That's just about the only crime that hasn't been committed, by the US, in the pursuit of Christian ideals.
However, there are hundreds of thousands of dead Native Americans that might disagree. We have a long history of religious nutsism in the US.
Just because a declaration has never been given, doesn’t mean the same results haven’t occurred.
…Not that I in any way disagree with the course of action we are about to take, as a nation. I’m on board 100% but, I’m not on board with hatred, merely with the understanding of necessity.
Sitting around FR and lifting select lines from religious texts, for the purpose of enforcing a negative stereo-type does nothing but make us look like the ignorant racists that we are so often accused of being by pinheads like the people at DU.com.
I could sit here all day and pick and choose stupid lines - which are every bit as hate filled as the quotes above - from the Bible. Islam is no more fundamentally evil than the Jewish faith, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or even certain sects of Christianity and attempting to make villains out of Muslims, in general, is every bit as misguided and foul-minded as Muslim-extremists attempting to make villains out of Christians and Jews.
But, I’m sure you know all this, being the I’m-going-to-talk-down-to-you-idiots genius that you are.
79 Posted on 09/20/2001 12:08:05 PDT by Psycho_Bunny
"The fact that millions of animals masquerading as people have done so and continue to do so in the name of Islam, also apparently has escaped your notice."
Well, I guess that says it all. Brilliant articulation of your faith.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
80 Posted on 09/20/2001 12:09:24 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Im not sure, but it seems to me that you argue ..1) that we have not heretofore been sufficiently provoked to justify our striking back at them,
The short answer is, yes, if I thought it would be an effective act, that achieved anything I wanted at reasonable cost, I'd be in favor of it--But it is not, whether you think terrorists are basic to Islam, or, as I do, peripheral, and promoted by sinister western interests. This will not be an act that suppresses terrorism--it will be an act that ushers in more of it. At base, I think I agree with XBob, physically taking over all of Islam, and running their schools and press for them for two generations will be the least expensive effective act we could manage, short of the genocide of Islam. You think we can stomach or afford, or succeed, at that kind of comprehensive thought policing? This presently trumpeted notion, which seems to be gaining currency, that a "measured" response will make Islam so fearfully respectful, that "they" will put an end to this virulent anti-western bombast & terrorism, is the most mind-scroggling mis-estimation of the workings of the human heart as any wistful pink-bunnies and snowcones thinking I have ever seen in my life, outside of a feminist enclave at a PTA meeting I once attended.
There is serious brain damage loose in the land on this subject. On the one hand, we have zealous fundamentalists to battle, and our best thinking, in support of this latest half-baked military adventure, is that it will somehow provoke the "moderate" Islam states into suppressing the stream of consciousness that promotes it. I've got news: zealots are not moderatable by "measured" force of arms--moderates are hardly any more so. People who promote this point of view ought to be institutionalized--instead, they run our presses and government.
plus 2) we're not absolutely positive who did this, coupled with 3)
Yea. Well, obviously, a bunch of 30-40 year old, well-off minor playboys, with the brains, westernization, and patience to get pilot licenses, and the propensity to party hearty, who all fly planes into buildings in conjunction, are a natural sole result of islamic fundamentalist zeal. Or, they were talked into feeling this way by Ben Laden. If western fundamentalist christians were acting like responsible islamic adults for 10 years or so, before dropping hijacked jetliners on Mecca, would you be equally accepting? Hey, this thing stinks, and when something stinks, you ought to take some time to think about it.
In response, in summary I would say (perhaps I speak for others too?).. 1) we have been sufficiently provoked and our response should be "measured" to respond in kind. Many of us dont want to wait for the next act, which of course you argue isnt coming, or isnt going to be large, or may not come at all if we call off the dogs .. (I think youve said all 3?)
No. I'd guess further damage is presently scheduled in the pipeline, and will be perpetrated. And we should try hard to prevent it or, probably more effective, minimize it's results here, but until we are ready to revamp or destroy Islam, military adventures short of that can only serve to accelerate the problem down the road. We are getting ready to perform a highly irrational act for heavily charged emotional reasons that are easy to understand, but shouldn't be mistaken for rational justification.
You merely have to destroy the network and frighten the host states into controlling their populations. It can be done, its been done before, it just requires some "re-education" as well as Force ( of course)
Good grief--is that how we would respond if colors were reversed? Can the Suadis control what the Islam press and churches do in Bombay or Christchurch? Could Islam pursuade us, with a "measured" military response, say, in Alabama, to throttle the anti-Islamic rhetoric coming from churches in Canada? Either they are fundamentalist zealots, who arise from fundamentalist zealotry we are fighting or they are not. Which is it?
nothing could have been done about it , its out of our hands
Nothing we'd be willing to do that would be effective using our military can be done about it, at present. I am sorry for that. Do you think pretending it isn't so is much saner than what the Islamic zealots are doing?
In all fairness, I guess if this was '41 and the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor, youd be in favor of a WAR type, response.. Right ? (or would you be talking about how FDR set this up, and it all about trade routes and oil, and hegemony and the WAR Dept,and thats as far as they can reach, and who gives 2 spits about Pearl Harbor? Its not even a US State!!)
To meaningfully threaten a country's existence as an aggressor state, you need a large standing army. Japan had one. Islamic zealots is shadows on the wall, not an aggressor country with a large standing army, whose identity we have no doubts about. Washington's advice is still the best: if their troops aren't marching on your capital, stay home and clean your gun.
I submit to you that it is very peculiar that even now we are not taking far cheaper, non-military steps to make our homeland and our lives more defensible. Bubonic shots, Anthrax drills, beefing up safety shelter medical&support supplies and security drills a' la' WWII, would be far better bang for the buck than foreign military adventures. Ask yourself why we aren't doing this. Is it because somebody wants us left intentionally vulnerable while they go overseas to stir up hornet's nests?
...
...in just the same way we were just now left vulnerable in the skies above Washington, despite substantial warnings arising from ours', and others' intelligence community, some of these warnings locked onto specific of these individuals? And the one from France specific as to the form of attack? Public domain information allowed the Pittburg passengers to figure out what was going on. And much better public information was available to the CIA and it's computers. This scenario is not believable.
I have several predictions to make in support of my supposedly paranoid contention that the desire to invade Afganistan is the cart, and the terrorist acts were the horse.
1) Any fast attempt toward handing over Ben Laden will immediately provoke invasion.
2) If a natural blunder doesn't kill a bunch of photogenic Afgani civilians in the immediate invasion, one will happen shortly after occupancy.
3) We will be just sufficiently vulnerable to whatever the response is (my guess is Anthrax, it has a lot of advantages you wouldn't at first think about, for my postulated shadow government.) to justify general marshall law, and the invocation of the EEOC's to unleash FEMA on us, but not much more so. Anthrax's scope is very easy to control, as it isn't extra-ordinarily infectuous.
81 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:29:48 PDT by donh
I am ashamed of and disgusted by the small percentage of religious fanatics on both sides.
Small huh?
On the Dennis Prager show this morning, just a couple od hours ago, he cited a poll in the Middle East which determined that 50% of all Muslims approve of the Mass Murder last week.
How many Muslims did you say are in the area?
Now, you can try and whitewash that all you want...
Finally, about that reward posted in Pakistan, offering a bounty for every American killed.... and a good one too; if I remember right, about $6000 a head...
Please explain that. Better yet, go check it out personally.
82 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:39:22 PDT by Publius6961
Do you think we should have left those belief systems intact?
We entered WWII because our shores, and therefore, our sovraignity, were palpably threatened by aggressor nations with believably threatening large standing armies. Threats to sovraignity are the traditional justification for a war, and are ok by me to go to war over. Murderous acts by non-armies are civil matters, no matter how serious.
So, to repeat my question: are we ready to occupy all of Islam to revise their thinking? This "measured" response nonsense isn't going to buy anything but lots more dead americans.
83 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:39:47 PDT by donh
Well, I guess that says it all. Brilliant articulation of your faith.
I must agree with you, that says it all.
That you need to define everything as a struggle of faith puts the lie to your protestations that this is not a religious war.
For all you know, I am agnostic.
84 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:42:32 PDT by Publius6961
Well done.
85 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:44:11 PDT by Deb
Read post #82 genius.
Ignore it or respond, as you wish.
86 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:45:38 PDT by Publius6961
Excellent work. Has anyone criticized you for not providing enough "context" yet? (LOL!!)
87 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:48:20 PDT by hcmama
69 - "you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, "
I suggest you read a book on US history, any book, even a liberal book of politicially correct US history lies.
Typical loser "progressive" out of context response.
I invite every one to visit post #69 for themselves and see the rest of my statement.
88 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:48:38 PDT by Publius6961
much of Islam has been spread by the edge of the sword.
Sort of like the Spanish did in Central and South America for their version of Christianity.
89 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:50:52 PDT by FreePaul
I agree, god = ?
90 Posted on 09/20/2001 13:51:40 PDT by norraad
I'm not impressed, bigot.
91 Posted on 09/20/2001 14:02:50 PDT by Psycho_Bunny
And when I say "bigot", I'm not being sarcastic.
92 Posted on 09/20/2001 14:05:23 PDT by Psycho_Bunny
Dennis Prager show
HUGE BUMP!
93 Posted on 09/20/2001 14:07:31 PDT by Manny Festo
Murderous acts by non-armies are civil matters, no matter how serious.
We're just going to have to disagree about that one. We're approaching about one fifth of all deaths received in the Korean War, with more to come, if we do nothing whatsoever. Amorphous opponent or not; I dont see this as a "civil matter".
So, to repeat my question: are we ready to occupy all of Islam to revise their thinking?
I think we have to be ready to swap out governments and replace them with one of our choosing, and pressure Host States to eradicate the vile propaganda machines in their respective countries
Japan and Germany were occupied countries. We're not going to be able to do that accross the board, obviously. Can we force Saudi and Egypt to clamp down on and crush and outlaw the nutcrackers that spread their vile message to their children? I would hope so, but I could understand your scepticism. I would say its not going to be easy, and it will require all kinds of "pressure".
But we cant do "nothing". IMO.
94 Posted on 09/20/2001 14:36:08 PDT by Nonstatist
We entered WWII because our shores were threatened..."
You must be joking. I'm not going to respond to that except to say that you should reconsider the events of September 11 and read a bit more history.
I've come to believe that our course of action in this conflict will be determined against the backdrop of a single question: Do you believe that these people have the capability of acquiring a weapon of mass destruction and the will to use it against us?
It pretty much boils down to that. If you believe the answer is "yes," as I do, then you must consider that the lives of 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 of your countrymen at stake. In fact, they are in far more imminent danger than they ever were in WWII. Therefore, we must at least consider a response on the same order as our response to Hitler.
If, on the other hand, you choose to believe that our enemies lack the capability or the will to detonate a nuke in one or more of our cities, your response will be very different. Calls for "moderation," "changes in policies," etc.
95 Posted on 09/20/2001 14:40:39 PDT by cicero's_son
I've come to believe that our course of action in this conflict will be determined against the backdrop of a single question: Do you believe that these people have the capability of acquiring a weapon of mass destruction and the will to use it against us?
I am pretty sure they already have at least anthrax here, prepped and ready to go. If you know how to operate a petri dish, and an aerosol pump, and don't mind dying of anthrax (which is obviously not going to be a problem), you have all the technological and logistic prowess needed in your average kitchen and lawn shed to infect the water supply of a major city.
It pretty much boils down to that. If you believe the answer is "yes," as I do, then you must consider that the lives of 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 of your countrymen at stake. In fact, they are in far more imminent danger than they ever were in WWII. Therefore, we must at least consider a response on the same order as our response to Hitler.
Uh huh. And where is that best done? In Afganistan? Bullturds. Where is my government-supplied anthrax vaccination? Until I get offered mine, I'm assuming priorities are other than the ostensible ones I'm seeing.
Capturing Ben Laden has very low priority in that regard. It will make everyone feel loads better, but it's all symbolic flash and glitz insofar as actually making me any safer goes. This supposed "measured" response peace bonus is, as I have suggested above, science fiction based on an obvious mis-comprehension about human motivation, which I'll adumbrate: We assume that third world Islamics are like us: eager only to watch re-runs of Laverne and Shirley, and collect our Social Security. Solders in this country used to give up their lives gladly in defense of freedom. Can you imagine someone eager to die in defense of Social Security? Our proposed "measured" attempts to make Islam tamp down it's own rhetoric would work on us. It will have the effect of a fart on a hurricane in countries that produce people willing to ride planes to their deaths' to wound an infidel.
The attack we just suffered was put in place several years ago--this supposed "measured" response peace bonus will have no effect on what we're scheduled to get hit with for the next several years. Do you think we should have started in Argentina to fight Hitler? Ben Laden's troops are already in place, here. There's no urgency respecting the national interest about capturing him this second.
96 Posted on 09/20/2001 15:38:47 PDT by donh
But we cant do "nothing". IMO.
Yes we can. And we should if it's the least harm option. There is plenty, with an historical record of being effective--that we could be doing here with a great deal better bang for the buck compared to mounting a foreign war--and aren't, focused as we are on capturing Ben Laden.
97 Posted on 09/20/2001 15:47:59 PDT by donh
We entered WWII because our shores were threatened..."
You must be joking.
Trust me on this. If your warships are sunk in your ports by a country with a huge, active standing army that's been occupying other countries, your shores are threatened.
98 Posted on 09/20/2001 16:30:07 PDT by donh
donH says - Gee - don't do anything, you might make them mad.
What happens the next time? Osama bin Laden probably already possesses several suitcase nukes
99 Posted on 09/20/2001 18:16:42 PDT by XBob
88 - "I invite every one to visit post #69 for themselves and see the rest of my statement. "
===
I didn't think you wanted to be further embarrased by repeating your hateful inane response, however, since you insist, I will post your whole response:
--------
"Incredible as it may sound, you Mensa graduates have managed to miss the fact that The US has never once gone to war with anyone, nor issued a fatwah for insulting Christianity.
The fact that millions of animals masquerading as people have done so and continue to do so in the name of Islam, also apparently has escaped your notice. "
100 Posted on 09/20/2001 18:35:22 PDT by XBob
One thing I was taught when growing up was to respect anothers religion and learn about it and I am Muslim and an American and proud of it. To call anothers book crap is plain ignorant thats all I can say.
101 Posted on 09/20/2001 18:40:08 PDT by washington10
95 - bump to the top - "I've come to believe that our course of action in this conflict will be determined against the backdrop of a single question: Do you believe that these people have the capability of acquiring a weapon of mass destruction and the will to use it against us?
It pretty much boils down to that. If you believe the answer is "yes," as I do, then you must consider that the lives of 10,000,000 to 30,000,000 of your countrymen at stake. In fact, they are in far more imminent danger than they ever were in WWII. Therefore, we must at least consider a response on the same order as our response to Hitler. "
======
What happens the next time? Osama bin Laden probably already possesses several suitcase nukes
102 Posted on 09/20/2001 18:51:30 PDT by XBob
97 - Wow - Mr chambelain: "But we cant do "nothing". IMO. - Yes we can. And we should if it's the least harm option. "
Mr chamberlain, you're no Churchill
Mr chamberlain, you're no Truman
Mr chamberlain, you're no Eisenhower
Mr chamberlain, you're no Reagan - "Mr. Gorbachov, tear down that wall."
Mr chamberlain, you're no Bush SR. (on Kuwait) - "This will not stand."
Mr chamberlain, you're no Bush Jr. "Stop terrorists or share their fate."
Mr chamberlain, you're donh !!!!!!! donh walking.
Have you started walking yet don?????
103 Posted on 09/20/2001 19:12:33 PDT by XBob
82 - "On the Dennis Prager show this morning, just a couple od hours ago, he cited a poll in the Middle East which determined that 50% of all Muslims approve of the Mass Murder last week."
So you believe in rigged polls now. Where was that poll taken, among the Palestinians?
From my personal experience, and personal contacts, at least 90% of the moslems abohore this atrocity.
104 Posted on 09/20/2001 19:18:50 PDT by XBob
82 - "On the Dennis Prager show this morning, just a couple od hours ago, he cited a poll in the Middle East which determined that 50% of all Muslims approve of the Mass Murder last week."
So you believe in rigged polls now. Where was that poll taken, among the Palestinians?
From my personal experience, and personal contacts, at least 90% of the moslems abohore this atrocity.
105 Posted on 09/20/2001 19:22:48 PDT by XBob
donH says - Gee - don't do anything, you might make them mad
This kind of rhetoric is also popular with pugnacious drunks in bars. We don't go to war to preserve our knightly honor, or show what men-who-don't-back-down we are. We go to war to achieve something tangible that we need for our survival. There is little to gain from demanding Ben Laden this instant, except by way of appeasing american sensibilities, we can get him later, far cheaper. It will not materially affect the terrorist solders already in place, and imagining that capturing Ben Laden and his lieutenants will magically cause terrorism to diminish due to the increased fearful respect other countries will then have for us has eaten too many lotus blossoms. Ben Laden will be replaced 10 minutes after he is arrested, and unless you are ready to draft every able-bodied american for guard duty, we are not going to be standing over Islam dictating what's in their sermons and radio shows.
I'm a pretty serious bloodthirsty war-monger, and think we should be at war continuously if we are to maintain an effective military. But I'd urge you to remember the tankman's prayer. "Please don't spend my life in battle to gain nothing."
These terrorists have made us look like total fools, in a move that could have been designed by experts to assure that we would stumble into war in Afganistan. Why do you assume we aren't going to be even bigger fools if we do?
How smart would it be to make sure world islam opinions toward america are greased by america stumbling around like an overgrown bully, inventing ever more doubtful, creative new international excuses for being an aggressor against one of the poorest and least organized countries in the world, before unleashing Anthrax on the general US population?
Does this clever plane attack on the World Trade Center bear the earmarks of fundamentalist religionists, or does it smell more like a layered, sophisticated psy-ops action? It astonishes me that more people don't feel played by this attack on Afganistan. You don't cure being had, by being had bigger.
106 Posted on 09/20/2001 19:25:34 PDT by donh
donH says - Gee - don't do anything, you might make them mad
This kind of rhetoric is also popular with pugnacious drunks in bars. We don't go to war to preserve our knightly honor, or show what men-who-don't-back-down we are. We go to war to achieve something tangible that we need for our survival. There is little to gain from demanding Ben Laden this instant, except by way of appeasing american sensibilities, we can get him later, far cheaper. It will not materially affect the terrorist solders already in place, and imagining that capturing Ben Laden and his lieutenants will magically cause terrorism to diminish due to the increased fearful respect other countries will then have for us has eaten too many lotus blossoms. Ben Laden will be replaced 10 minutes after he is arrested, and unless you are ready to draft every able-bodied american for guard duty, we are not going to be standing over Islam dictating what's in their sermons and radio shows.
I'm a pretty serious bloodthirsty war-monger, and think we should be at war continuously if we are to maintain an effective military. But I'd urge you to remember the tankman's prayer. "Please don't spend my life in battle to gain nothing."
These terrorists have made us look like total fools, in a move that could have been designed by experts to assure that we would stumble into war in Afganistan. Why do you assume we aren't going to be even bigger fools if we do?
How smart would it be to make sure world islam opinions toward america are greased by america stumbling around like an overgrown bully, inventing ever more doubtful, creative new international excuses for being an aggressor against one of the poorest and least organized countries in the world, before unleashing Anthrax on the general US population? What a fine result from an attack that was supposed to pursuade the rest of the Islam world to refrain from supporting terrorism.
Does this clever plane attack on the World Trade Center bear the earmarks of fundamentalist religionists, or does it smell more like a layered, sophisticated psy-ops action? It astonishes me that more people don't feel played by this attack on Afganistan. You don't cure being had, by being had bigger. What we are about to do is thoughtless to the point of being insane, and does no honor to the memories of those recently lost in whose name this reprisal is being launched.
107 Posted on 09/20/2001 19:37:08 PDT by donh
When are you walking to work????? Please get off your mouth and walk, like you are pleading. As it was such a terrible thing, you should not be using any gas from the mid-east, period.
I love the kalaidoscopic way your mind siddles up to a logical syllogism. I also objected to the killing of witches in the Middle Ages. Does that mean I am morally forbidden to read the Bible? If I object to the use of money to buy heroin, does that mean I can't use money?
108 Posted on 09/20/2001 23:18:57 PDT by donh
I do agree to keep all eyes open
I do not know if we will meet in the middle, but, we will meet.
109 Posted on 09/20/2001 23:35:48 PDT by steelie
As usual, you're right on! This will evolve into a "clash of cultures" whether we like it or not. Possible civil war right here too.
110 Posted on 09/20/2001 23:44:28 PDT by BnBlFlag
Well, gentlemen, as of this morning, here's the latest twist in our story. Is Ben Laden in Afganistan, or isn't he? What a great hand to be holding, eh? Having just spent a few gazillion bucks to mass an army at the border of the world's most luckless country, and having placed our bets on a very public statement that the Taliban's fate will be Ben Laden's fate, now it occurs to us that he might have bugged out, or he might not have. What does that make us when we invade Afganistan? What does that make us when the president fails to keep his word of last night, and refuses to invade Afganistan?
"Measured" response, indeed. There's a reason we normally restrain ourselves from sending armies after individuals in foreign countries, and it's not just restraint out of courtesy. Before the first shot is fired, this is already destined to be a war on islam, and so much for the so fine distinction between the terrorists, and those upstanding moderate islamic governments that are on our side.
New experiments in the idea of war, like officially declaring war without declaring who the enemy is, is opening Pandora's box. From an international legal perspective, how is what we will now have to do different from what the terrorists do?
This is a bad idea into which far too little thought has gone, from stem to stern. Bush cannot leave this deployed army standing idle for very long, and he cannot dismantle it and bring it home. He is locked into providing the terrorists with what they need to justify mass attacks in the eyes of the islamic world, which is probably just what they intended when they crashed the planes.
111 Posted on 09/21/2001 07:42:46 PDT by donh
108 - "If I object to the use of money to buy heroin, does that mean I can't use money?"
What is this inordinate interest you have in heroin??? You are going to have to use something to get your drugs. don't use gas you are unwilling to defend.
WALK WALK WALK!!!!!!
From your freeper favorites list:
Court clears way for Sydney heroin injection room http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3acf996f4dbe.htm
Gov't Drug Sentences Draw Attention http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a452a184c22.htm
Heroin Hot Spots
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a4926317ee5.htm
Pope bans nuns' plans for heroin 'shooting gallery' (Australia) http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3818c8125f18.htm
Soil Bug Blamed in 30 Heroin Deaths in UK, Ireland http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a39412ef506d6.htm
What is Heroin?
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3af965a22478.htm
112 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:17:30 PDT by XBob
111 - Your Xanadu dreams are getting to you. You just don't seem to know anything about which you speak.
"Before the first shot is fired, this is already destined to be a war on islam, and so much for the so fine distinction between the terrorists, and those upstanding moderate islamic governments that are on our side. "
Please tell this to President Mubarak, and see what he says, the moderate moslem that these very same people tried to kill three times when I was in Egypt, with bombs and bullets.
113 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:27:12 PDT by XBob
111-"Well, gentlemen, as of this morning, here's the latest twist in our story. Is Ben Laden in Afganistan, or isn't he? "
as I said before, who says we are going to Afghanistan?
114 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:00:16 PDT by XBob
Did the Prophet own slaves?
115 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:14:53 PDT by Virginia-American
"Did the Prophet own slaves? "
Yes, and he supported owning them also. That is what makes me laugh so much at all the blacks who turned muslim.
One interesting, and little known fact is that the holy land of Islam, Saudi Arabia, did not outlaw slavery of men until 1964. I don't think salvery of women is still allowed either, but, as a good moslem friend of mine said, when I asked him how many children he had, he said 3. 3 boys and 2 girls. Owing to the problem with language, I asked him again, in arabic, to which he again replied, 3, 3 boys and 2 girls.
There are many fine Moslems who are my friends, but some do have some different customs than we do.
116 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:31:51 PDT by XBob
Islam is the antichrist. It is the second final solution for satan to try and kill as many Jews and Christians as possible after Rome failed and than Hitler failed. But God has other plans and the victory has already been won through Jesus Christ. Repent and make yourself ready for His return. Christians love their enemies and that is why we have so many pacifists in this country as apposed to Muslim countries. We hold life sacred unlike the communist atheists Stalin and Mao that killed millions upon millions and the muslims that fasely believe killing women and children will obtain paradise for themselves. If these bastards had a nuke they would or will use it to kill many more innocent people as they did on September 11. They would be blowing up neihborhood pizza parlors here now as they do in Israel if Syria or Lebanon was on our border instead of Mexico and they wanted California back!!! Thank God native American indians hold life more sacred than these evil islamic terrorists. I am sick and tired of this political correctness crap about the middle east. We made the same cultural mistake in Veitnam. There are not just a few muslims that hate America, but millions that do because they are mislead. But I trust God and our nations leaders and I trust what the bible says will be, so let it come.
117 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:41:21 PDT by Mat_Helm
You are one of the major reasons I am no longer a 'christian'. You are so full of ignorant hate, no wonder some hate us so vigorously. Why don't you try living up to the religion Christ taught???? There is too much hate and ignorance in the world, yours included.
118 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:14:22 PDT by XBob
Jesus spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic the word for Lord, or God, is "Allah".
Take your rant and substitute the word God or Lord.
119 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:20:21 PDT by Samaritan
It's written in the Qur'an in Surah 5
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
We are considered a "Christian Nation" by the Muslims
120 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:25:19 PDT by StayoutdaBushesWay
Yes, and he supported owning them also. That is what makes me laugh so much at all the blacks who turned muslim.
Read Philemon in New Testament the Apostle Paul sends a slave back to his master.
121 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:30:48 PDT by Malachi
Just off the top of my tired head: Christianity is faith-based, individualistic and universalistic. Judaism puts more emphasis on practices and laws, and is community-based and not universalistic. Islam is practice and ritual centered, community-based and universalistic. The eastern religions adhere to a very different way of thinking than the Western monotheisms, though one could draw vague or loose parallels between Buddhism and Christianity or Hinduism and Judaism if one really wanted to. Judaism's influence over the secular world is limited by its emphasis on one particular people, Christianity by its growing emphasis on the individual and his conscience, Hinduism by its many gods and cults and emphasis on the god within, Buddhism by it's essential unwordliness or other worldliness. Islam's power over society doesn't face these limitations.
Also, the Koran was written in one life time and reflects one particular set of circumstances: the establishment of a new religion in bitter competition and contestation. The Hebrew Bible, and to some degree the Christian gospels and epistles and the writings of Eastern religions that we take to be canonical evolved over longer periods of time and reflect different circumstances.
There is an interesting article in Saturday's Times: The World is Paying For the Failure of a Dream. According to the author, Michael Binyon, Islam was quite self-confident until the rise of Mongols and Turks and then of the West, which threw them back upon themselves and eventually led some into deep bitterness. A dominant, self-confident religion may find it easier to adapt to "modernity" than one that is forever conscious of being thought backward or inferior.
Sorry if I've insulted anyone's or everyone's religion. I can't claim to speak with any authority on any of this.
122 Posted on 09/21/2001 19:09:31 PDT by x
slavery was common in those days, and in the bible, and in the days of Jesus, and was accepted. Remember the story of Ben Hur who became a galley slave.
124 Posted on 09/21/2001 23:47:37 PDT by XBob
We will soon know by the alliances that are formed in the next FEW days
Let us keep clear heads. And as I say to my children every day, "PAY ATTENTION">
125 Posted on 09/22/2001 00:48:52 PDT by steelie
Ya know XBob. The difference between Islam and Christianity is Jesus and that's all the difference in the world.
Jesus lifted women to a high position and cared for them. In Islam women are less than dirt, they are chattle.
Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, fed the multitudes, preached the Word of GOD, raised the dead. The works of the followers of Christ are missions, hospitals(St. Lukes for example, Red Cross), orphanages, charity, ending injustices (William Carey in India ending setee, William Wilburforce ending slavery in Great Britain, Dr. Peter Hammond in Sudan fighting modern islamic slavery and murder)
Islam converts by the sword, terrorizes infidels (Christians, Jews, Buddhist[Taliban destroying buddist statue], etc...), robs, pillages, enslaves and then says they are peaceful.
My point is that not that Christ needs a defense (the sinless dying for the sinner) but that it is a cheap shot to try and lower the Lord Jesus Christ to the level of islam.
Ye shall know them by their works and followers of Jesus Christ did not slam into the side of the WTC.
126 Posted on 09/22/2001 01:17:23 PDT by marxwas a loser
The Archeology of The Middle East
The religion of Islam has as its focus of worship a deity by the name of "Allah." The Muslims claim that Allah in pre-Islamic times was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The issue is thus one of continuity. Was "Allah" the biblical God or a pagan god in Arabia during pre-Islamic times? The Muslim's claim of continuity is essential to their attempt to convert Jews and Christians for if "Allah" is part of the flow of divine revelation in Scripture, then it is the next step in biblical religion. Thus we should all become Muslims. But, on the other hand, if Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan deity, then its core claim is refuted. Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. We can endlessly speculate about the past or go and dig it up and see what the evidence reveals. This is the only way to find out the truth concerning the origins of Allah. As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.
LINK TO THE REST OF THE ARTICLE......
The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.
The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel. moongod.htm
127 Posted on 09/22/2001 01:37:46 PDT by marxwas a loser
"Ye shall know them by their works and followers of Jesus Christ did not slam into the side of the WTC."
No, they just invented the KKK, performed a lot of lynchings, implemented slavery of indians and blacks, poured gold down the throats of the indians to 'convert' them, blew up a lot of catholics/protestants in Ireland, napalmed 100,000 on the road of death in Iraq, bombed the hell out of Serbia for an oil pipeline, went to the mid-east and fought the 'holy' wars of the crusades. Little things like that.
128 Posted on 09/22/2001 03:14:18 PDT by XBob
coming from one who thinks Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, was conceived by god in a virgin, fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes, why should the moon god give you a problem?
129 Posted on 09/22/2001 03:21:43 PDT by XBob
Bump.
130 Posted on 09/22/2001 03:23:24 PDT by FReethesheeples
No problem here.
131 Posted on 09/22/2001 05:15:58 PDT by Samaritan
Does this clever plane attack on the World Trade Center bear the earmarks of fundamentalist religionists, or does it smell more like a layered, sophisticated psy-ops action? It astonishes me that more people don't feel played by this attack on Afganistan. You don't cure being had, by being had bigger.
Well, it's worked so far, it created a backlash against muslims in general, and American muslims in particular, and provoked some serious thrashing around by a wounded giant, so why won't it work for the rest of the game plan? It's not like the continuing discovery that all the "evidence" is red herrings and wild goose chases is having any effect of inspiring anyone to look to see who benefits, and how.
Although I'm sure someone's disappointed that in the backlash, only three people have been killed on the streets by Americans, and two weren't even muslims. I wonder whether the terrorists know that Americans are standing up for muslim Americans, protecting our mosques with their bodies, wearing head scarves and loose clothes so the knee-jerk reactionaries don't know which women are muslim and which aren't, forming ad hoc platoons of Gulf War veterans (and others) with local police oversight to protect American muslim community leaders, and discovering that their funny-looking neighbors speak English and believe in things that are very, very familiar?
Someone has seriously misjudged the American people, who are not going crazy as expected. Sales of translations of the Qur'an are at an all-time high and some of our mosques are overwhelmed with newly-awakened Americans coming to accept Islam and learning how to pray. It seems people are a little surprised to discover that what they'd been led to believe about muslims is just a little off the mark, and they're wondering who sold them such a bloody expensive bill of goods.
I wonder when our politicians are going to catch up? They're starting to look a bit ludicrous.
But when two long-haul truck drivers at a truck stop physically remove a third driver to his rig and apologize for him to the muslim waitress he'd been cussing out, maybe it's time for people to re-think some prejudice and policy. The American people are not going to co-sign a blank check that's forged in the first place.
Check Guide to Events: Processing the Information Overload and get this last paragraph in context:
"Seventh, Jews and Christians are warned to prepare for Armageddon by beating their swords into plowshares, Muslims for The Hour by becoming like the better son of Adam: instead, Jews, Christians and Muslims -- many and few -- are actively promoting Apocalypse. Avoid Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia, or believing that you (or those of your communion) are uniquely and divinely anointed and appointed to save the world, or a remnant, or to usher in a new world or a new message for the faithful, while this world falls away into the Fire. This all-time favorite tool of deception is today a main event in media circuses and more often fatal."
If this isn't The Hour, I don't want to see it -- but it's a sure bet that we aren't staging it, there's Another Hand at work in what we're witnessing right now in America, that's plain. Muslims weren't and aren't behind the Tuesday Terror and the American people smell a rat, the whole thing is full of more holes than Swiss cheese.
It's not smart to try to fool Americans. It only works for a while.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
132 Posted on 09/22/2001 09:41:48 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
No, they just invented the KKK,
NOT TRUE.
performed a lot of lynchings, implemented slavery of indians and blacks,
You don't know what you are talking about, prove it!
poured gold down the throats of the indians to 'convert' them,
Give reference, lol!
blew up a lot of catholics/protestants in Ireland,
Christians did that, huh?
napalmed 100,000 on the road of death in Iraq,
Sounds like some fantasy history to me!
bombed the hell out of Serbia for an oil pipeline,
Cristians, huh?
went to the mid-east and fought the 'holy' wars of the crusades.
The world was predominatly Catholic and the people who went on the "crusades" were driving Moslems out of the Holy Land. I have no problem with that!
Little things like that.
Well, clearly you are here with a pro-islam agenda. I clearly am not.
I have just one question for you, are you posting directly from Bahgdad?
BTW...if you are even interested a "CHRISTIAN" is someone who trust Jesus Christ for their personal salvation of their soul by believing that his death on the cross was an atoning death for their personal sin. That he was buried and rose BODILY from the dead on the third day. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
133 Posted on 09/22/2001 11:05:15 PDT by marxwas a loser
coming from one who thinks Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, was conceived by god in a virgin, fed 5000 with a few loaves and fishes, why should the moon god give you a problem?
SO, you admit Allah is a pagan diety?
FYI, Jesus did do those things!
134 Posted on 09/22/2001 11:08:31 PDT by marxwas a loser
133 - Wow, ignorant one - such a litany of purposeful ignorance and stupidty is hard to match, and not worth repeating at all. You have really demonstrated where you come from.
As far as "Well, clearly you are here with a pro-islam agenda. I clearly am not. I have just one question for you, are you posting directly from Bahgdad?", why don't you read who posted this thread to begin with.
135 Posted on 09/22/2001 12:44:02 PDT by XBob
134 - FYI, Jesus did do those things! ' 133 - "That he was buried and rose BODILY from the dead on the third day. ", sorry, I didn't put that one in, but if you insist.
"SO, you admit Allah is a pagan diety? " - Why not, that's the god you believe in, so, what difference does it make to me.
As has been repeated so many times for the ignorant like you - Jews, Christians, and Moslems all believe in the same god - except that no messiah has come yet for JEHOVA, christ was the messiah for the christian's GOD, and Mohammed was the PROPHET for islam's ALLAH, all one and the same GOD.
136 Posted on 09/22/2001 12:52:50 PDT by XBob
What is this inordinate interest you have in heroin???
The Taliban is widely acknowledged to be the biggest heroin pushers in the world. It undoubtedly funded much of this attack, just as it has funded much of the 20th centuries' government's unfunded covert ops. Is that a good enough reason?
137 Posted on 09/23/2001 15:12:29 PDT by donh
Thank you for your research and post.
Bookmarked.
138 Posted on 09/23/2001 16:28:22 PDT by EverOnward
Please tell this to President Mubarak, and see what he says, the moderate moslem that these very same people tried to kill three times when I was in Egypt, with bombs and bullets.
You are refuting a position I do not hold. My point is that the likely result of the inadequatly thought-through injection of force in in the Middle East in response to the attack on the twin towers, would be the blurring of this distinction, both in american perception, and Middle Eastern responses. Just as the bombers probably intended.
139 Posted on 09/23/2001 19:22:02 PDT by donh
The Taliban is widely acknowledged to be the biggest heroin pushers in the world. It undoubtedly funded much of this attack, just as it has funded much of the 20th centuries' government's unfunded covert ops. Is that a good enough reason?
You didn't notice that the Taliban eliminated Afghanistan's entire opium production and that we financed initiation of new crops for their agricultural economy? Or is this merely an inconvenient fact this week?
And didn't we provide Bin Laden with American weaponry and materiel support during the Soviet occupation? Or is that another inconvenient fact?
Will SoCal get their pipeline after we bomb a path for it?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
140 Posted on 09/24/2001 02:39:21 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
XBob asked me the reason I found heroin so interesting, and even if the Taliban is heroin-reformed, which I doubt, that doesn't alter my answer.
With all due respect for your religious sensibilities, speaking factually, you are holding a bust hand here.
U.S. Newswire 18 Sep 9:00 Prosecute Bin Laden Through Taliban Heroin Connection, Ex-White House Drug Staffer Urges
...
WASHINGTON, Sept. 18, 2001 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following was released today by Robert Weiner Associates:
-- Prosecute Bin Laden Through Taliban Heroin Connection, Ex-White House Drug Staffer Urges
-- A.G. And Sec. State Should Look At Taliban Nurturing Funds From World-Leading Opium Cultivation And Heroin Production
Robert Weiner, former White House drug policy director of public affairs and spokesman for Drug Czars Barry McCaffrey and Lee Brown, is suggesting the investigation and prosecution of terrorist Osama bin Laden through the Taliban's "nurturing" of funds from Afghanistan's world-leading opium poppy cultivation, the raw product for heroin production, as an additional way to expose and prosecute the way "bin Laden and those who harbor him may get a great part of their operational money."
Weiner's statement follows:
As evidence grows of Osama bin Laden and his network's connection to the most horrific terrorism in our history, and as President Bush promises to mobilize the nation for a military campaign against those who harbor such terrorists and a disruption of their financing, consider this fact: Afghanistan is the world's largest producer of the opium poppy, the crop refined into heroin. According to the State department, Afghanistan's poppy cultivation area has quadrupled since 1990.
The Taliban government has made no effective attack against opium cultivation or production. On the contrary, they have nurtured the development of an infrastructure for the production of heroin "in contrast to several years ago when nearly all heroin refining took place outside the country," the State Department reports. Despite Taliban claims, officials believe that nothing indicates that the Taliban intends to take serious action to destroy heroin laboratories or stop drug trafficking.
Or this:
Taliban's heroin 'double-cross'
The Daily Telegraph
By Julian West and Philip Sherwell
Sunday 18 February 2001
THE poppy fields of Afghanistan's Golden Crescent, normally the source of three-quarters of the world's heroin, have been transformed this year, according to United Nations drugs officials.
Cash crop: Afghanistan was the source last year for 75 per cent of the world supply of opium After a detailed two-week tour, they say that few of the 175,000 acres formerly covered by the deadly opium crop are still in bloom. The fundamentalist Taliban regime ordered the country's farmers to stop growing poppies following an edict by Mullah Omar, the supreme religious leader, that opium cultivation is un-Islamic.
The move, however, has little to do with a new religious stance from the Islamic fundamentalist movement, which has been happy to bolster its coffers with the proceeds of the drugs trade. Rather, it is a cynical effort to win UN recognition and with it the lifting of sanctions and the restoration of foreign aid.
Western diplomats believe that if the tactic fails, poppy production will soon resume. In the meantime, the regime is believed to be taking advantage of soaring heroin prices - up four-fold in a year - to release controlled supplies from their large stockpiles of the roughly refined drug on to the market through middlemen.
The biggest financial losers of the cutback in poppy-growing are the country's already impoverished farmers. Their replacement crops of wheat and vegetables are much less lucrative, meaning that some families have even been forced to sell their young daughters into marriage to pay off debts.
American officials confirm that there has been a substantial drop in Afghan poppy cultivation but believe that the team from the UN Drug Control Programme is being "overly optimistic" by saying that the crop has been wiped out.
141 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:54:25 PDT by donh
"Is that a good enough reason? "
depends on where you are coming from. no comment, for now.
142 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:52:38 PDT by XBob
...and one last time for you, "ALLAH IS NOT THE FATHER, THE SON OR THE HOLY GHOST." ENOUGH SAID!
143 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:14:47 PDT by marxwas a loser
I have pity for all those that reject the truth and follow a false teaching. Everything I stated was fact and no where did I state that I personaly hate anyone. The fact is that the majority of islamic states twist their own perveted religion into hating Americans. Radical islam is similar to Nazi Germany and communist USSR and China in their destruction of life and humnaity. I pray that you will see the light and that muslims stop attacking Israel which are God's chosen people and Jeruslaem is their eternal capitol. Only twisted people and a twisted religion could preach hate and to kill their enemies. Christ tells us to love our enemies and I struggle with this every day in trying to do just this. Muslims take adavantage of this Christian philosiphy everyday and murder us. September 11 is just another example of middle east hatred and muslim hatred similar to East Timor and the killings there as well as Sudan and countless other places under the name of islam where chirstians are killed. This is the antichrist and if you consider that hate speach so be it. It is the truth and you can't hide this or wash it away or try to sugar coat it. Millions are mislead to this false teaching of hate in the muslim world because they fear the spread of Christianity. I will in no way take any blame for your leaving or rejecting the christian faith. If this was your reasoning why would you than stand by what the hate filled muslims are doing in the name of islam killing everywhere? If you do not go by doctrine but by the attitudes and actions of that religions believers than you are the largest hipocrit on the planet along with Bin Laden. Forgive my blunt talk and attitude because I am no longer tolerant of radicals killing my fellow Americans in the name of Islam. I pray for you and I pray for God's will to be done. I also stand by my country 100% in the goal to go after and erraticate all terrorists and murderers around the globe.
144 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:42:02 PDT by Mat_Helm
I have pity for all those that reject the truth and follow a false teaching. Everything I stated was fact and no where did I state that I personaly hate anyone. The fact is that the majority of islamic states twist their own perveted religion into hating Americans. Radical islam is similar to Nazi Germany and communist USSR and China in their destruction of life and humnaity. I pray that you will see the light and that muslims stop attacking Israel which are God's chosen people and Jeruslaem is their eternal capitol. Only twisted people and a twisted religion could preach hate and to kill their enemies. Christ tells us to love our enemies and I struggle with this every day in trying to do just this. Muslims take adavantage of this Christian philosiphy everyday and murder us. September 11 is just another example of middle east hatred and muslim hatred similar to East Timor and the killings there as well as Sudan and countless other places under the name of islam where chirstians are killed. This is the antichrist and if you consider that hate speach so be it. It is the truth and you can't hide this or wash it away or try to sugar coat it. Millions are mislead to this false teaching of hate in the muslim world because they fear the spread of Christianity. I will in no way take any blame for your leaving or rejecting the christian faith. If this was your reasoning why would you than stand by what the hate filled muslims are doing in the name of islam killing everywhere? If you do not go by doctrine but by the attitudes and actions of that religions believers than you are the largest hipocrit on the planet along with Bin Laden. Forgive my blunt talk and attitude because I am no longer tolerant of radicals killing my fellow Americans in the name of Islam. I pray for you and I pray for God's will to be done. I also stand by my country 100% in the goal to go after and erraticate all terrorists and murderers around the globe.
145 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:43:59 PDT by Mat_Helm
depends on where you are coming from. no comment, for now.
No, it doesn't. Reasons stand on fall on their own merits, not on the merits of their proponents. If I am green slime from Jupiter, I still either have a valid argument or I don't, on the merits of the argument. The analogy with your silly argument about me not using gasoline is obvious, and palpable, and remains unanswered.
146 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:17:33 PDT by donh
Dear ladies and gentleman, FYI we have an activist in here with nothing better to do than argue all day long. Having been asked to shut up about spreading propoganda about his religion and politics on news.grc.com, he proceeds to come here and spread more propoganda. Unemployed and scrounging off state welfare while exercising his freedom of speech which also covers telling lies and twisting anything people post and deliberately quoting out of context. You should be aware that (ankaboot) aka (Abujamal) aka (Dawud Ahmad Al-Amriki) is well known across many newsgroups as a TROLL. A visit to grc.news.feedback and grc.ten-forward a week or so back will give you an indication of what this guy is all about. He loves nothing better than to expose peoples names and addresses if they disagree with him or his activist minions. He will argue forever about nothing just for arguements sake and he is best off completely ignored as he always has to have the last word. Ignoring him completely like so many others do upsets him all the more and he goes away with his tail between his legs to spread FUD elsewhere. You will also find his propoganda on muslim groups on deja. A visit to his website at http://www.muslimamerica.net will give you an idea that this guy is a troublemaker first class. He uses 3 different email addresses that are well known muslims@earthlink.net abujamal@pchelpers.org and muslims@muslimamerica.net. Dawud Ahmad Al-Amriki, Muslim America, P.O. Box 231, Springdale, WA, 99173-0231, tel. (509) 258-9031, fax 1 (800) Muslims. Springdale, WA USA Here are some other useful details about this TROLL that is trying to hide his identity under this new alias. Beware like all TROLLS he has many aliases but he is easy to spot from his email addresses and the propoganda he spreads. He claims the only hope for America is Islam and that if you insult him that you should be careful his more militant brothers do not get to hear of it from him. Do a little research on him with the above search criteria and you will turn up alsorts of fundamentalist and radical activist crap, screaming for jihad and many more of his cut and paste ramblings posted to enflame and poke a reaction. Hey Abujamal, Give it up TROLL the game is up. We know what you are. We know what you stand for and we know what you are up to. *vome*
147 Posted on 09/24/2001 18:19:51 PDT by vome
Salaam!
Glad you could make it. Welcome to Free Republic com, the on-line home of middle America.
Freepers, I know this poster from the computer privacy and internetworking security newsgroups hosted by Steve Gibson, who is currently helping the FBI -- at their request and in conjunction with the National Infrastructure Protection Center -- search for leads to those behind the Tuesday terrorist attack. At the request of the National Security Council through CERT (I've forgotten what that stands for), Steve Gibson has also written a basic introduction to what Americans will need to do in order to do their part in the cyber war that is also being waged by the terrorists. It will be public in a short time, you can read it now on Steve's newsgroups .
This post is *not* representative of news.grc.com/grc.news.feedback where we were discussing the Ida Code Red Worm and more lately the nimda worm, and in one newsgroup the terror war launched against America.
Expect to see more of these posts. The writer is a very hard worker and has a very dull axe to grind.
I think he's posted this to all of the Threads below.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War" on America
A Moment for Truth
148 Posted on 09/25/2001 00:25:23 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I find more spritual value in used TP !
Cheese .
149 Posted on 09/25/2001 00:47:58 PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
YOU ARE A STUPPID BIGOTED FOOL. no wonder they hate us. You are truly worthy of hating.
150 Posted on 09/25/2001 11:50:56 PDT by XBob
"Be like the better son of Adam"
And who may that be????? Get behind me satan, in the precious name of Jesus.....
In His Service
151 Posted on 09/25/2001 13:18:17 PDT by SJLKickdragon (Jesus is the Living Word)
"Be like the better son of Adam"
And who may that be?????
"Better" being a comparison between two, the "better son of Adam" was the one killed by the other one. Habil; in Scripture in English, Abel.
Get behind me satan, in the precious name of Jesus...
You should try to avoid letting him get so close to you that you have to say things like that.
Personally I don't rely on my own "authority" to attempt ordering him around like that, I don't think he listens. I prefer "I take refuge in God" from him and rely on God to keep his whispers and snares and wiles away from me.
Sounds to me like he walks with you and he talks with you and tells you you are his own. Hopefully he's mistaken.
In His Service
In someone's, it appears.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
152 Posted on 09/25/2001 14:58:04 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
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