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I've seen a number of threads putting forth the opinion that we will eventually wind up in a world war that pits Islam against the rest of the world. These opinions tend to focus on the theory that abject hatred for and ultimate destruction of Christians and Jews are both integral to the doctrine.
On the other side of the coin, I've heard for many years that true Islam teaches peace and love, and that fundamental terrorists are aberrations not at all representative of the true spirit of Islam.
Quite frankly, I have never taken the time to explore the religion myself because as a Christian it just hasn't held much interest for me. Now, however, I'd like to gain a better understanding of where these people are coming from.
With that in mind, can anyone point me to a concise summary that shows where the hatred/destruction of non-Muslims is refuted within the doctrines of Islam? Where can I find the peace-and-love-for-all-mankind aspect backed up in the holy literature that Islam is based on?
This is not meant to be sarcastic; it is a serious question that I have as I strive to learn.
1 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:21:42 PDT by MississippiMan
Judge a book by the content of the book and not by the cover. Judge Islam by its conduct and not by content of Koran or what Moslems say.
2 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:27:09 PDT by halflion
A good site answering Islam is... Answering Islam.
3 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:28:00 PDT by MitchellC
A Serious Islam Question
Try the following:
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3bab6acb247a.htm
There is a short section on the rise of Islaminism, the radicalization of the original Islam.
Islam has always been a (literally) militant religion, but this development made it deadly.
4 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:29:28 PDT by Publius6961
While what is practiced is not necessarily what Islam preaches (isn't that true of all religions?), the Qu'ran does indeed teach tolerance. The doctrine of jihad is a latter day addition not accepted by many Muslim scholars.
According to the Qu'ran every human being is honored just by virtue of being human before people are even categorized in terms of creed or breed. The Qu'ran says "We have honored the children of Adam, provided them with transport on land and sea, and conferred on them special favors above a great part of our creation." (17:70)
Islam emphasizes the oneness of Humanity as a family. "O mankind: fear your Guardian Lord who created you from a single self and created -out of it- its mate, and made from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women." (4:1)
All people are equally eligible for the basic human rights, including the right to freely chose one's religion without coercion, for within Islam the space of the "other" is well preserved and protected.
Islam is not an exclusive religion, and no human being, clergy or otherwise, is ever permitted to set limits on Alllah's mercy and forgiveness, or to speak on his behalf in assigning rewards or punishment. The ultimate judge is Allah ... "your return in the end is toward Allah.. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed." (6:164)
5 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:32:50 PDT by Storm Orphan
Judge Islam by its conduct and not by content of Koran or what Moslems say.
I disagree. I think you are 180 degrees wrong. Islam has no conduct, although its believers do. Judge the believers by their conduct. Judge the belief by the statement of that belief. In the case of Islam, the statement is the Q'uran.
Shalom.
6 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:35:10 PDT by ArGee
I'm going to work and have to answer quick. Christians, Moslems and Jewish people pray to the same God. No, Islam is not a violent religion anymore than other, but the fanatics are the ones that get the attention. Unfortunately, because of the Cold War, the US financed at lot of the crazies to work against coomunism.
BTW, Operation Inifinte Justice was not politically incorrect - it's blasphamous, which is why people got angry. I object to Operation America is god, too, because that's what it means to Moslems. All in all, someone wants Islam wiped off the map.
7 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:35:48 PDT by The Documentary Lady
*ping*
8 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:36:01 PDT by Storm Orphan
Heck, just check out the Koran. It is an astoundingly beautiful document. Frankly, the Old Testament (which Islam includes among its holy scriptures) is a far bloodier and gruesome document than the Koran.
Evil is always done in the name of good. That's why it is absolutely essential not to confuse the message with the messenger.
9 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:40:02 PDT by Seydlitz
Published Sunday, Sept. 16, 2001, in the San Jose
Mercury News
Expert says Islam prohibits violence against innocents Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs
BY RICHARD SCHEININ
Mercury News
Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?
We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''
Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.
Q Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?
A Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up
English people.
They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.
Q Because?
A You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.
In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.
Q What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam?
A I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective.
The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers – who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction.
Q Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs?
A That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery-- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians.
Q Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.''
A That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government.
Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy.
Q Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks?
A Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people.
Q What about Israeli people?
A Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories.
It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization.
The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost.
Q How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets?
A When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people.
Q The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence.
A Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority.
Q What is the Arabic word for martyr?
A Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity.
And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue.
Q What does Islam say about suicide?
A Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder.
Q What is a martyr's reward?
A The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, ``Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.''
If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.
10 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:42:56 PDT by mbynack
Here is the difficulty. The one main source for Islamic religious teaching is the Koran. The Koran is not particularly well-organized. It does not proceed chronologically like the Bible, for example. Basically it purports to be a collection of the fragmented writings (suras) of Mohammed. These writings were collected into a book a few years after he died arranged in order from the largest sura to the smallest.
Mohammed himself was not a particularly peace-loving man - he directed the genocide of the Meccan tribes personally and spent most of his life as the 7th century equivalent of a mugger, attacking merchant caravans and looting them. At certain points in the Koran we are told that there should be no compulsion in religion - at others that infidels should be slaughtered, that a true Muslim will lie in wait for them to kill them, and that Allah has ordered Muslims to smite unbelievers at "appropriate times". The religion itself was spread through violence (the Middle East was Christian and more Greek than Arab until the Muslims visited genocide upon it!) and the story of Islam from 700 A.D. to 1600 A.D. was essentially one of a long war fought to eradicate Christianity as a social force. A coalition of Catholic armies defeated Islam decisively in 1500s and the British and French empires kept militant Islam in check until WWII.
Right now, Muslims are fighting wars to impose their faith on Christians in Nigeria, Christians and pagans in Sudan, Christians in Molucca, Christians in East Timor, Christians in the Philippines, Hindus in Kashmir and in Bangladesh and fought a war recently to try and eradicate Christianity in Serbia and Macedonia.
The original Muslim empire was called the Caliphate. When it fell, the definitive religious authority in Islam - a clerical council called the Ulema - disintegrated in a process analogous to the Reformation. Different sects and schools of thought arose within Islam, each insisting that their interpretation of the Koran was correct.
Now there are ulemas in various countries, each issuing their own authoritative interpretations of the Koran called fatwas. Some of the more liberal ulemas condemn violence, terror, etc. Most ulemas either ignore terrorist activity or encourage it.
As a result, one can read as many books about islamic religious belief as one wants - but there is no definitive answer as to what "official" Islam is since there is no central authority.
If history is any guide, the vast majority of Muslims, including the first Muslim, solved all of their politically and cultural disagreements through war and/or genocide.
Muslims all over the world contribute money to violent campaigns being waged by Islamic militants across the globe.
Islam has never been a peace-loving religion ever in its history. It is not now and given the kind of reverence the Muslim in the street shows to the bin-Laden of the world, it will never be any different in its future as it has been from the day it was conceived in the brain of a caravan-robbing Arab with a score to settle.
11 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:46:46 PDT by wideawake
I dare say that we will have as hard a time interpreting Islam as we do Christianity. Christianity spans thoughts from people believing "God is love" to the desire to set up a theocratic state based as much on old testament principles as the doctrine of God's grace.
Those who practise Islam cover as wide a range.
12 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:47:26 PDT by Paraclete
I have been told and I may be wrong - Koran is written in totally deranged fashon - you have to read it from right to left, bottom to top and all verses are written in radndom order and so you can not read anything sequentially and interpret it logically. That is why clergy derive so much power in Islam - all powers of interpretatation rest with religious heiarchy and they can get away by claiming anything.
13 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:52:34 PDT by halflion
I was wondering...why is there not, nor has been a Moslem Democracy?
They always seem to be either Theocratic or totalitarian.
An exception may be Turkey, but they are neither totally Moslem nor are they totaly a Democracy.
Any thoughts?
14 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:53:07 PDT by Psalm 73
Judge a book by the content of the book and not by the cover. Judge Islam by its conduct and not by content of Koran or what Moslems say.
That raises the issue of words having double meanings. You could say 'judge Christianity by the conduct of Christians', but then you have to determine exactly what a Christian is in the first place, what qualifies someone to use that title (if Jeff Dahmer went around calling himself a Christian, would that really have made him a Christian?, etc...).
It is entirely valid to judge the actions of individuals or groups of Muslims, but not necessarilly as being reflective of what Islam is. Other Muslims could (and will) always fall back on the argument that the actions of some or many in 'the name of Islam' is not truely representative of what Islam is. To judge Islam, you will have to investigate (and judge) the Qur'an since that is the place that we find the criterions for Muslimhood.
15 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:54:59 PDT by MitchellC
For a good brief summary of the Religion of Islam see: www.fni.com/cim/briefing/islam.html
16 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:56:37 PDT by Ararat
wideawake,
Very well thought out and articulate response. It is amazing that after years of coming under attack from Islamic terror (Olympic Games 1972, USS Cole, Khobar Towers, African Embassies, Achile Lauro, TWA hijackings, 1993 World Trade Center bombing, PAN AM flight 103 bombing, etc), Americans are finally asking the question.
Does Islam want to do us harm? Duh?
Also--amazing that the tenents and foundations of Islam are finally being examined in a critical light--and the stench is more than many realized. So Muhammad had two slave girls murdered for singing a sarcastic song about him? So this Muhammad guy married a 6-year old and had sex with her when she was 9?
Yup.
17 Posted on 09/21/2001 11:58:48 PDT by SkyPilot
I have been told and I may be wrong - Koran is written in totally deranged fashon - you have to read it from right to left
Like Hebrew, that is how you read the original language of the Qu'ran. You need not do it with English translations. Yeesh.
...all verses are written in radndom order and so you can not read anything sequentially and interpret it logically.
You were told wrong. It is no more difficult than the Psalms.
That is why clergy derive so much power in Islam - all powers of interpretatation rest with religious heiarchy and they can get away by claiming anything.
Sounds like the same accusation made against the Catholic Church.
18 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:01:41 PDT by Storm Orphan
I am a Muslim, a friend to all peoples and all religions. This is what our messenger(saas)said, all humanity is equal. Qur'an, Sura 5 verse 48 "Allah made us as a test, diversity"
19 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:02:09 PDT by Samir
You mean like Noah having sex with his daughters?
20 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:03:42 PDT by Storm Orphan
I would love to read the Koran to "judge it for myself". However, I know that it is going to be just like all of the other religious books that I have read, meaning that it will be incomprehensible, self-contradictory, and that after I finish reading it I will be unable to come to one single logical, rational and defensible conclusion as a result of what I have learned from the book I just read. As a result, I quit reading religious books, and I'm a lot happier for it!
21 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:04:55 PDT by Billy_bob_bob
Sounds like the same accusation made against the Catholic Church.
Zing!
22 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:05:51 PDT by Cernunnos
Well said.
If Islam wants to show the world how loving, peaceful and tolerant a religion it is they could start by allowing other religions to co-exist in their midst.
The countries that practice religion should condemn in the strongest possible terms terrorism, the slaughter of two million Sudanese and the historical method of Islamic proselytizing “ convert or die”.
23 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:06:15 PDT by DaveyB
Any religion that sanctions sex with an animal by a man as long as the animal is female, speaks for itself.
24 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:08:54 PDT by rebelsoldier
Source: RationalThinking
Published: October 2000 Author: Ali Sina
Rational Thinking explores Islam, Quran and Muhammad’s claim to prophethood.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Pascal
A thorough study of Quran and Hadiths reveal an Islam that is not being presented honestly by the Muslim propagandists and is not known to the majority of Muslims. Islam as it is taught in Quran (Koran) and lived by Muhammad, as is reported in the Hadith (Biography and sayings of the Prophet) is a religion of intolerance, inequality, violence, discrimination, superstition, fanaticism, and blind faith. Islam advocates killing the non-Muslims, abuses the human rights of the minorities and women. Islam expanded by Jihad (holy war) and forced its way by killing the non-believers and the dissidents. Apostasy in Islam is the biggest crime, punishable by death. Muhammad was a fundamentalist himself therefore fundamentalism cannot be separated from true Islam. Islam, which means submission, demands from its followers to submit their wills and thoughts to Muhammad and his Allah, a deity that despises reason, democracy, freedom of thought and freedom of expression. I reject Islam a) because of Muhammad’s lack of moral and ethical fortitude and b) because of the absurdities in Quran.
a) Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship with Aisha a 9-year-old child, his killing sprees, his massacre and the genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destroying the water wells, his cursing and invoking evil on his enemies and his revenge on his captured prisoners of war disqualify him as a decent human being let alone the messenger of God
b) An unbiased study of Quran shows that far from being a “miracle” that book is a hoax. Once Quran is scrutinized with rational thinking, almost every sentence proves to be false. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities and grammatical errors. Could possibly the author of this Universe be as ignorant as it appears to be in Quran? Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that “they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (Q.5: 34). “As for the disbelievers”, it says that “for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to “strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to “strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many “captive” women as they may have (Q. 4:3). He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are unislamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after calling them apostates and the enemies of Allah. This site scrutinizes Islam with Rational Thinking. It rejects time-honored beliefs that cannot stand the probing of reason. It asks questions and encourages independent thinking. It promotes unity of humankind, equality between men and women, abolition of prejudices and freedom from dogmatism and blind faith.
In a world that has become so technologically advanced that even the poorest nations that cannot feed themselves boast having sophisticated nuclear and biological weapons, small misunderstandings can cause catastrophic results. Religion has always been the biggest source of misunderstanding. For religion, people are ready to die, kill and destroy everything else. Only a religious person would believe that he would go to paradise if he kills other human beings. Only a religious person has no regards for the lives he destroys because their faith is not right.
In the past century Islamic fundamentalism has been on the rise, and with that terrorisms, revolutions, and upheavals ensued. Millions of lives were lost and still counting. Let us pause for a moment and take a second look at Islam. We may just have made a mistake. The reason I think Islam is harmful and must go is not due to the fact that Quran says Earth is flat or the stars are missiles that Allah fires at the jinns who climb the heaven to eavesdrop the conversation of the exalted assembly. These tales could even amuse us. Islam must go because it teaches hate, it orders killing the non-Muslims, it denigrates women and it violates the human rights. Islam must go not because it is false but because it is destructive, because it is a danger; a threat to peace and security of humankind. With the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in Islamic countries, Islam has become a serious and a real threat to the survival of our species.
Ali Sina
October 2000
25 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:13:38 PDT by Travis McGee
While what is practiced is not necessarily what Islam preaches (isn't that true of all religions?), the Qu'ran does indeed teach tolerance. The doctrine of jihad is a latter day addition not accepted by many Muslim scholars.
According to the Qu'ran every human being is honored just by virtue of being human before people are even categorized in terms of creed or breed. The Qu'ran says "We have honored the children of Adam, provided them with transport on land and sea, and conferred on them special favors above a great part of our creation." (17:70)
Islam emphasizes the oneness of Humanity as a family. "O mankind: fear your Guardian Lord who created you from a single self and created -out of it- its mate, and made from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women." (4:1)
All people are equally eligible for the basic human rights, including the right to freely chose one's religion without coercion, for within Islam the space of the "other" is well preserved and protected.
Rational Thinking is the website of a Humanist, Ali Sina, who tells a different story.
Cordially,
26 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:14:26 PDT by Diamond
I would like to see you cite chapter and verse of the Qu'ran to back that up.
Thanks in advance.
27 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:14:47 PDT by Storm Orphan
From the beginning, Islam has had the underlying notion that one can be compelled--forced, literally--to believe and follow Islam. This is a religion of works, of obeisence to the MUllahs and their dictates. This is a religion that believes one earns heaven and heavenly rewards. That stands in sharp contrast to the fundamental teachings of Christianity but not to Judaism.
It is profoundly Christian to believe one accepts the Grace of God in/through Christ, that one acquires salvation by faith in the person and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that not of works, lest anyman boast, that since it is God the Creator whom offers His grace to the individual soul, acceptance leads to obedience in the true believer and this obedience eschews violence except in defense of self and family and home. Sadly, Islam has many tenets that are in direct opposition to such beliefs.
28 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:15:45 PDT by MHGinTN
I suppose you know this and are trying to deceive others intentionally.
Noah did not have sex with his daughters. That was Lot after the destruction of Sodom. Further his daughter fearing there was no men left in the world got him drunk first such that he was unaware of their deception.
Please try to state the truth in the future.
29 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:16:31 PDT by DaveyB
There's nothing so self-righteous as an ex-smoker.
30 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:17:17 PDT by Storm Orphan
Wouldn't it be cheaper and more cost effective to bomb them with free satellite TVs and MTV ?
BUMP
31 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:17:23 PDT by tm22721
You mean like Noah having sex with his daughters?
I'm guessing you really meant Lot, whose daughters conspired to get drunk so that they could have sex with him.
Anyway, that's a pitiful comparison, because Lot is not even close to being as highly exalted in Judaism/Christianity as Muhammed is in Islam. The best the Bible says about Lot is that he was "righteous" because of his faith, learned from Anraham, not that he was even close to being sinless. Muhammed is more or less presented as the beacon of all that is good and virtuous.
On the other hand though, if Jesus went around ordering assassinations and molesting children, etc. ad nauseum, then you'd definitely have a point.
32 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:17:28 PDT by MitchellC
Islam is not peace loving. Mohammad fought wars to spread his religion and war is still an accepted means to an end for at least one branch of the religion. It is my understanding that the Moslem religion is divided into two factions, Sunni and Shiite, (hope I spelled them correctly) and one is actively militant and one is not. I, too, would like to know the exact status of Islam w/o the politically correct pablum of "it's a loving religion" when it isn't.
33 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:17:58 PDT by gopvoter
Just look at the Islamic countries. Are they free? Are they tolerant? How are the women treated? What happens to anyone who leaves their faith? What happens to people "suspected" of preaching another faith? That should answer your question.
34 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:19:07 PDT by Pining_4_TX
You mean like Noah having sex with his daughters?
I think you mean Lot.
35 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:19:59 PDT by JenOPCer
To really see how terrible islam is checkout this link
www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
all the talk about peace is hogwash. islam is a very violent religion which preaches nothing but death to non muslims.
example plight of hindus in india fro 500 years from 900 to 1400 ad. Will Durant called it the bloodiest occupation of mankind' history
36 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:20:24 PDT by sickandtired
Honest slip of the mind on Noah/Lot.
The fact is there's some pretty weird sexual stuff in the Bible, when taken out of context.
That was my point regarding the sex stuff from the Qu'ran - it was being taken out of context.
37 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:20:36 PDT by Storm Orphan
I did mean Lot. I forget though if that incident was before or after he offered them
up to the angels for a gang bang.
38 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:21:50 PDT by Storm Orphan
An exception may be Turkey, but they are neither totally Moslem nor are they totaly a Democracy. Any thoughts?
I thought any religion was outlawed in Turkey, and that it is an atheist state.
39 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:21:55 PDT by JenOPCer
Sorry, but I think some folks on this thread are WAY wrong.
From what I understand, Muhammad divided the world into two groups of people. The momir and the kafir - the believers and the unbelievers.
The injunctions of the Quran are that the House of Peace (islam) and the House of War (nonislam) will always be at war.
Islam has been soaked in blood every day of its history from the days of Mohammed onwards. How do you think it spread until it controls a significant part of the world? It was spread by the sword. Islam has never been at rest. All of europe and Asia has been threatened by islam for almost 1500 years.
India's lost over 10,000 temples to the depredations of Islam, just because they are nonbelievers in islam.
Download a copy of the Koran. It's only about 2 meg. should be able to read through it in a week or so. I've seen some quotes on a couple of websites that have made me shudder in revulsion though. If what I've read is true, Muslims are instructed by Allah to commit the most unspeakable things to the kafir from beheadding to dismemberment (fingers, hands and feet), to pouring boiling oil and water on victims to "inserting hot rods" into the victims body. Truly grizzly stuff.
Why do you think that just about every religion in the world is at war with islam? Jews, Christians, Hindu's, Bhuddists, all of them are suffering under islam in one place or another.
Now it really don't matter to me if a Bhuddist believes in the Great Wheel and who they worship. Nor that the Hindus believe in the Trimurte and The Yuga. Nor that the Norse believed that Thors chariot was pulled by goats.
Those things are over 10,000 miles away and I couldnt care less how or who they worship. Islams a different matter though. An ancient islamic emperor (Arangzeb I think) murdered 10,000 Hindus every day for a YEAR! Just because they were Hindu's. No actually those 3,650,000 people were killed because they were KAFIR - just like you and me.
I'm quite certain that I'll get flamed - but lets all keep an open mind and do our homework before we make a judgement. Lets not forget Constantinople. The only reason that it is no longer a christian city is because it was taken by islam - not radical islam, we're making that distinction - but islam. Period. How do you think that Muslims got into Bosnia/Kossovo in Europe? or such a heavy presence in Spain for hundreds of years? They've murdered their way into these places. They're only kafir.
You just watch how many muslims go up in flames when we attack. Then you'll find out that this isn't about 'Radical Islam'. This is normal status quo for Islam.
Look at the huge chunks of land that they're pulling out of long established cultures all over the world. Kashmir India, Pakistand and Bengladesh India, Kossovo/Bosnia, XinJiang China, Chechnya Russia These places aren't near the arabian peninsula. How did Muslims get that far? They've been fighting their way into these places since the times of Mohammed.
Don't set your mind in stone that this is the workings of a few radicals. They are heavily supported from "moderate" muslims all over the world. These moderates will go up in flames in a minute given the threat to islam.
What do you think that Mujahadeen means? These people believe that they are Holy Warriors in service to Allah, not because Allah has inspired them into it, but because they're just following the writings of the Koran.
Getting a bad feeling about this. I don't think we understand the enemy NEARLY as well as we need to. We keep comparing islam to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, heck even Confusionism teaches a strong positive moral code. Islam doesn't. It teaches religions intolerance and racial bigotry against anybody who isn't a muslim.
I'll finish my rant now :) Have fun with the flames. heh
Godspeed
Try For more
40 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:22:37 PDT by America's Resolve (Americas_Resolve@yahoo.com)
See #37
41 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:23:03 PDT by Storm Orphan
I would love to read the Koran to "judge it for myself". However, I know that it is going to be just like all of the other religious books that I have read, meaning that it will be incomprehensible, self-contradictory, and that after I finish reading it I will be unable to come to one single logical, rational and defensible conclusion as a result of what I have learned from the book I just read. As a result, I quit reading religious books, and I'm a lot happier for it!
I have to wonder what you've been reading. The Bible may be loaded with difficulties and ideas that at some point go beyond the level of our ability to fully comprehend, but it is hardly "incomprehensible".
42 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:23:54 PDT by MitchellC
All in all, someone wants Islam wiped off the map.
My vote.
43 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:26:07 PDT by ivanhoe116
I'm going to work and have to answer quick. Christians, Moslems and Jewish people pray to the same God. No, Islam is not a violent religion anymore than other,
This simply isn't true. I work with a Muslim man of age 50 who often made the statement that we all pray to the same God just with a different name. Finally one day he asked me what Christians believe. And I told him that I believed that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. That this Jesus was from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and David. That he was of the tribe of Judah. That he was God. That he really healed the sick, walked on water, and raised the dead. That He allowed man to kill him on the cross and that he conquered death and arose from the grave. That he assended into heaven and that ALL POWER in HEAVEN and earth is given to Him. That he is LORD and that man is justified, and redeemed through faith in Jesus as our one and only savior. That He is devine.
I asked him if Muslims prayed to Jesus Christ.... and he told me what I believe is blasphemy.
44 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:27:32 PDT by kjam22
amen to that
45 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:28:36 PDT by sickandtired
Thanks for a concise and well organized response to all the lies being promulgated on FR lately about Isalm being all about love and peace. I'm getting sick and tired of all the lies and distortions. How many attacks do we have tendure and how many times do we have to hear their clerics denouncing us and calling for jihad against us...referring to the USA as the Great Satan and on and on before we get the idea that Islam is at war with the west.
46 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:29:33 PDT by pgkdan
I did mean Lot. I forget though if that incident was before or after he offered them
up to the angels for a gang bang.
Another slip-up? Lot offered his daughters to the crowd of Sodomites banging down his house in a (less-than-perfect) attempt at saving his guests (who were actually angels).
47 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:31:31 PDT by MitchellC
No religion is outlawed in Turkey. Religious political parties used to be outlawed - but recently Islamic parties have been admitted to the Turkish parliament.
High ranking Turks and Turks in the armed forces tend to be very secularized, and being a devout Muslim in the army will probably get you booted out for some reason or another.
48 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:33:28 PDT by wideawake
Your recollection is correct. And to further correct the story... the daughters got Lot drunk and had sex with him.... after S & G burnt.
49 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:34:23 PDT by kjam22
No flames from me friend. You are right on target. We are at war with Islam becasue Islam is at war with us. We need to know who are enemy is.
50 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:37:06 PDT by pgkdan
No flames from me friend. You are right on target. We are at war with Islam becasue Islam is at war with us. We need to know who our enemy is.
51 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:37:35 PDT by pgkdan
I forget though if that incident was before or after he offered them up to the angels for a gang bang to protect the angels.
Thanks for the catch.
Peter 2:7
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his
righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
52 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:38:10 PDT by Storm Orphan
Peter 2:7
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his
righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
That verse, with its use of the word 'vexed', really points out Lot's imperfection in choosing to live where he did (opting for material abundance in a known surrounding of spiritual depravity). Good catch, yourself. :)
53 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:44:02 PDT by MitchellC
I think you are right on. I have been involved in Christian missions, I have been to the third world, I have friends various places....places I shouldn't name or give too many details about as I could get them in trouble (mostly with muslims)
There is not a place where there are muslims where the Christians aren't in fear for their lives: we are not talking about the wars of words or discussion that happens in this country, we are talking stopping a bus in a rural area, seperating the muslims from the non-muslims, and shooting the non-muslims.
. If one looks at the proponents of Islam in the USA you find some peaceful people, or at least Bush 43 did for his photo-op. there probably are peaceful muslims, and we shouldn't indiscriminately attack them.
Yet, the prominent American muslims I know are Malcom X (by any means necessary), Mike (Cannibal Rapist) Tyson, Cassius Clay aka Muhammed Ali ( nicest guy of the lot, but made his living beating up people)
If the term extremist is used correctly, it describes those on the fringe of a particular group. The right wing christian extremist fringe gave us Timothy McViegh and various murders of abortion doctors. The current take of many is that laden et al are a muslim fringe analogous to our own embarassments. Experience dictates otherwise, that muslims who believe in peace are the extremists. I don't mean to offend, I would love for some conservative muslim freeper who weeps for this country to stand up and be counted and tell me where I am wrong.
54 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:49:00 PDT by Scarlet_Pimpernil
Thanks. I'm honestly not trying to attack the Bible.
I was only trying to point out that both the Bible and Qu'ran have verses which, lifted from context,
might seem to advocate or endorse all manner of depravity, silliness, or violence.
55 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:50:06 PDT by Storm Orphan
I would love for some conservative muslim freeper who weeps for this country to stand up
and be counted and tell me where I am wrong.
President Bush stood up last night and told you where you are wrong.
56 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:52:20 PDT by Storm Orphan
Those things are over 10,000 miles away and I couldnt care less how or who they worship. Islams a different matter though. An ancient islamic emperor (Arangzeb I think) murdered 10,000 Hindus every day for a YEAR! Just because they were Hindu's. No actually those 3,650,000 people were killed because they were KAFIR - just like you and me. I'm quite certain that I'll get flamed
No flames from me, my friend! These people are all "nice" when they live in your neighborhood, however, your activities defile their god daily.
DEATH TO ISLAM...YOU CAN'T LIVE WITH THEM FOR EVER.
57 Posted on 09/21/2001 12:54:25 PDT by ivanhoe116
Nice post good info.
I am still a little skeptical on just who the extremists are, the peace lovers or the suicide bombers.
Does anybody have any numbers? I mean, lets say you have the one kind of muslim that believe in peace, and another kind that believe in jihad. The author is pretty convinced that we are dealing with the lunatic fringe, and the facts don't seem to support it. I know the folks in palestine dancing are poor, may hate America etc., but if they are religious and in a holy war, they embrace one or the other, and it seems obvious which form of islam they practice
58 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:00:06 PDT by Scarlet_Pimpernil
I thought this might be of interest. It looks prescient today, given date of publication.
"Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam."
"Marx has taught that Communism is fatally predestined to come about; this produces a state of mind not unlike that of the early successors of Mahommet."
"Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the Empire of this world."
--Bertrand Russell, Theory and Practice of Bolshevism, London, 1921.
59 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:02:13 PDT by a merkin
But it is not outside of reason that either the Bible or Qur'an even in their proper contexts could be promoting depravity, violence, etc. If it is true that one does not, then the other shouldn't be lifted to its level in an attempt at 'being fair' or 'harmonizing their messages' or some such thing.
I don't think it's unfair at all, or taking the Qur'an out of proper context to say that it promotes the spread of Islam via warfare, the taxation of non-Muslims to support the religion, etc.
60 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:02:28 PDT by MitchellC
Christians, Moslems and Jewish people pray to the same God.
Not so. Which one do you worship? Take your pick. Make one of your own design. Many christians nowadays don't even worship the God of the Bible.
Jews and Christians have different Saviors. Jesus is ours, Jews are still waiting for theirs. Mohammed's DEAD. Jesus lives.
Your god(s), aren't/ain't my God.
61 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:02:40 PDT by packrat01 (Jesus is Lord)
MississippiMan, I had the same type of questions so I went online and found some searchable Qu’rans. I did a search for verses which had the word “Christian” in them and here are two of the most interesting :
5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
9.30: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Here are two links to searchable Qu’rans on the web :
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/koran.html
You may also find the information from Avi Lipkin to be quite enlightening :
http://www.khouse.org/avilipkin.html
62 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:03:05 PDT by ZGuy
I thought these observations might be of interest. They appear prescient today, given their date of publication.
"Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam."
"Marx has taught that Communism is fatally predestined to come about; this produces a state of mind not unlike that of the early successors of Mahommet."
"Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the Empire of this world."
--Bertrand Russell, Theory and Practice of Bolshevism, London, 1921.
63 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:03:56 PDT by a merkin
verses which, lifted from context, might seem to advocate or endorse all manner of depravity, silliness, or violence.
Lot didn't advocate what you're implying, even taken out of context.
64 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:09:55 PDT by packrat01 (try again)
hopefully not too far not too far
65 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:10:54 PDT by sickandtired
I said that Islam sanctions the practice from the extrapolation of the fact that certain Islamic societies tolerate it. I didn't say Islam commands the practice, and some Islamic societies only punish bestiality if the act is homosexual in nature. I've seen you here before and I realize you don't like Jews or Israel, but this isn't about Jews, Israel, or even Zionism, it's about terrorism and terrorist ideology and activity against the United States justified via another religion's members who totally disagree with your assertions about Islam. Again, their ACTIONS speak louder than your words. It isn't really important whether or not the text of their religion endorses murder or terrorism or calls it by another name. The fact is that militant Islamic extremists, not Baptists, Buddhists, or Bahai, are committing cowardly acts of terrorist mass murder in the name of their faith en masse. Save the bigotry lecture for the uninformed.
66 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:36:14 PDT by rebelsoldier
Guess you told me. Your scholarship astounds me.I wish I were simple like you, and could just believe everything told me without analyzing it or chewing on it a little.
Do you know what a sheeple is?
67 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:39:25 PDT by Scarlet_Pimpernil
I said that Islam sanctions the practice from the extrapolation of the fact that certain Islamic societies tolerate it.
Islam is a religion. The fact that Jim Jones & Co.
committed suicide does not indict Christianity. Get your stories straight.
I've seen you here before and I realize you don't like Jews or Israel
I defy you to find one post where I have been critical of Jews or Israel. I demand you withdraw that slander.
You are a liar.
68 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:39:55 PDT by Storm Orphan
Guess you told me.
Yes. I did.
Do you know what a sheeple is?
Someone who criticized a religion without ever reading its holy books.
69 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:42:02 PDT by Storm Orphan
In his testimonial, Timothy McVeigh admitted to having assistance from Osama Bin Laden's group in the Oklahoma City bombing. Whether or not some choose to believe this, his act very closely remsembles the damage and techniques used on the Marine barracks in Lebanon and the two US embassies bombed in Africa. Therefore, the assertion that McVeigh's act was an example of white, "right-wing" Christian terrorism is biased and suspect.
70 Posted on 09/21/2001 13:46:26 PDT by rebelsoldier
I have heard over and over again how Islam teaches tolerance and equality and how most muslims do not condone radical behavior and violence, but I keep going back to the same three unanswered questions.
1. Where are all the moderate muslims speaking out against violent acts?
2. Why is it that the vast majority of historical Islam has been violent and oppressive, treating some citizens as lesser humans, namely Christians and Jews - especially since we are to believe that all three monotheistic religions worship the same God? If the muslims truly believed this, why is there not a marked respect for Christians and Jews?
3. Why is it that virtually every modern muslim country on earth is a theocratic dictatorship, and oppressive to some degree - from the moderate - Jordan - to the extreme - take your pick?
Mohammed himself did not practice tolerance and peace. He set the example for hundreds of years to come by the way he lived his life. It is patently false that radical Islamic behavior is a new thing - there's too much historical documentation to the contrary.
71 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:00:18 PDT by agrace
You are so wrong in your assumption that Christianity or Jewish beliefs are anywhere near Islam . One, Islam holds no belief in Jesus as the Savior . Islam teaches the killing of unbelievers, regardless of what people say . It states this within the Koran .
Fight and slay the pagans [i.e. infidels] wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. —The Koran, Sura 9:5
In plain language, basically use whatever means is needed to oppose non-believers . Across seas and here those who are faithfull to this and actually do wage war are called fanatics . Here, we have propaganda and a claim to relation of other beliefs . This is more acceptable in the US however a fact still stands, they are one breed . Through niceness however we seperate the two . But in my own mind, part of actual war tactics is making sure the other 'side' doesn't know what's coming and this in many times is done with lies .
Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. Sura 10:38
The Gospel teaches the Truth of Jesus being Savior through acceptence and repentence . Heaven is a place in which we shall reap a reward, that of eternally being in the presence of the One true God (The Father, The Spirit, the Son) to worship and be thankfull, that the only way in is through Him (Jesus) and His Blood . The Koran however teaches salvation as a reward and that Muslims should vie with one another and win forgiveness, that doing good gets you there . It teaches that salvation is gained through good deeds .
Need I tell that in the Bible it warns of false prophets .
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people
In America this is one of those 'view it however you want,' type scriptures .
An example of one who follows the Koran would be a relation of sorts between myself and a shop owner in an Apt complex I once lived at . The store in Tulsa Ok is ran by Pakistanian Muslims for the most part . I only got to know one, the youngest employee(before he was fired, beats being jailed I guess) The rest treated everyone in a cold manner . No smiles or willingness to engage in small talk . It wasn't untill I read this little tid but that I understood . Now, the native born here will be friendly and will be your friend which isn't a bad thing I suppose . It provides an opening for a discussion .
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
In plain language . Fight untill the 'enemy' pays for protection .
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Well that wraps up my small tribute to enlighten the unknowing . Yes, Islam in my view is false originally given by a false prophet . It is war like and not to be trusted . However Muslims are like myself and any other person born and made in the image of God, we are born into sin and must come to Him for forgiveness .
More information can be found in the following links
here too.. and finally one from April of this year in FRee Republic .
I hope this information and these links help out a little in shedding light and His word and love as well .
Cheese.
Matthew 16:24
72 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:04:23 PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
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Reply |
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1. Where are all the moderate muslims speaking out against violent acts?
They have been all over TV, radio and newspapers.
2. Why is it that the vast majority of historical Islam has been violent and oppressive, treating some citizens as lesser humans, namely Christians and Jews - especially since we are to believe that all three monotheistic religions worship the same God?
Historically, Islam and Christianity have been violent and oppressive to one another. Jews less so because they are such a minority.
3. Why is it that virtually every modern muslim country on earth is a theocratic dictatorship, and oppressive to some degree - from the moderate - Jordan - to the extreme - take your pick?
Good question. Basically, they exist in a world about 200-500 years behind us as regards church-state issues. Remember that real freedom and secularization only came to Europe in the past century.
For many reasons, several hundred years ago, a more fundamentalist dogma dominated Islam, and after a period of true enlightenment and science - they led in medicine, astronomy, mathematic, etc. - much of that world stepped back into their own Dark Ages.
Imagine had the Enlightenment and Age of Reason not pulled the West from the Dark Ages, or America not been founded as the first secular nation.
The Muslim world indeed needs to undergo an age of enlightenment.
73 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:08:35 PDT by Storm Orphan
I don't care if you are or aren't critical of Jews or Israel, that's your opinion and right. I am not politically correct about any thing or subject. Furthermore, I don't catalog your's or anyone else's posts, because frankly, few people here are that interesting enough to worry about. Sorry. As for being a liar, why would I bother to make up lies about you? Again, I don't care enough to make up lies. If you say you have never spoken out against Jews or Israel, alright, if you say so. As for demanding I do something, you can ask, but you can't demand anything of me. YOU need to read beyond the stated text of books to see what truth really is, and refrain from quoting passages from it, as if this were evidence to refute reality. A manual of faith is only as worthy as the persons who employ it correctly.
74 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:09:32 PDT by rebelsoldier
Still waiting for your evidence or your withdrawal of your accusation, liar.
75 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:12:00 PDT by Storm Orphan
I don't care if you are or aren't critical of Jews or Israel, that's your opinion and right.
Translation: Rebelsoldier makes slanderous and untrue accusations and hasn't the balls, evidence or intelligence to back them up.
Again, I don't care enough to make up lies.
Lie #2
YOU need to read beyond the stated text of books to see what truth really is, and refrain from quoting passages from it, as if this were evidence to refute reality.
The thread asks about Islam, not how it is improperly practiced. You need to read the thread. Liar.
76 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:14:58 PDT by Storm Orphan
what ever justification you may have it is a fact that islam was, is and will be a violent religion.
77 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:15:39 PDT by sickandtired
They have been all over TV, radio and newspapers.
Really? Are you sure these reactions aren't because they're feeling a little nervous in the shadow of the US's anger? And I was speaking more generally than just in response to the WTC attacks. Where are these Muslim leaders when the suicide bombers hit their mark in Israel? Where are they when Christians are killed and maimed in Sudan? Where are they when Saudi Arabia executes Muslims who convert to another faith? Where are they when Coptic Christians in Egypt are crucified? Where are they when apartment buildings are bombed in Russia?
Historically, Islam and Christianity have been violent and oppressive to one another. Jews less so because they are such a minority.
Historically, Muslims have always ruled by violence and conquered in the name of Islam, since Mohammed conquered neighboring tribes. The Crusades are a portion of Christianity, a vile blot on the timeline that Jesus would NEVER have sanctioned. Early Christianity was not dominant, rather it was persecuted vigorously by the Roman Empire, and modern Christianity knows no factions who convert through coercion or violence. Islam at peace is an EXCEPTION to the norm rather than business as usual.
No matter how you couch it, you can't get around the fact that historically Islam is violent, and modern Islam is oppressive. Islam cannot be enlightened and remain true to itself, or there would already be modern Islamic states that are peaceful and tolerant. Islam itself rejects enlightenment and chooses to live as it does! As long as Islam rejects modern ideals such as capitalism and tolerance of social diversity, forward movement will always fail. It's a vicious circle.
78 Posted on 09/21/2001 14:43:52 PDT by agrace
Are you a teenage boy or a female? I can't imagine an adult male writhing with the kind of incensed hysteria and "affected" umbrage you display. As for Islam and the Koran, its aspect is meaningless. It's not a book we will be at war with, but its slavish devotees that employ its scriptures to justify their cowardice and murder. I have no sympathy, time, or patience to consider a religion or a religious view as a mitigating or excusing factor surrounding an act of mass murder terrorism. In fact, that would be the act of a coward. Are you a coward? And, believe it or not, you are neither qualified intellectually or emotionally to assess the nature and aspect of the larger conflict or determine the nature of the dilemma. If you have a problem with this, you know where to reach me. Your silly remonstrations on this thread are boring me.
79 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:08:11 PDT by rebelsoldier
Islam is exactly the same as Christianity.
The message is peace and brotherhood,
but few adherents actually practice it.
80 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:11:21 PDT by Nogbad
"Where can I find the peace-and-love-for-all-mankind aspect..."
Start with the Koran.
81 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:12:25 PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
Are you a teenage boy or a female? I can't imagine an adult male writhing with the kind of incensed hysteria and "affected" umbrage you display.
Translation: Rebelsoldier is too much of a coward to admit he made slanderous accusations of anti-Semitism.
As for Islam and the Koran, its aspect is meaningless. It's not a book we will be at war with, but its slavish devotees that employ its scriptures to justify their cowardice and murder.
Actually, President Bush said we would be at war with a tiny minority who pervert Islam and blaspheme Allah.
I have no sympathy, time, or patience to consider a religion or a religious view as a mitigating or excusing factor surrounding an act of mass murder terrorism.
No one asked you to.
In fact, that would be the act of a coward.
That is something you have experience with.
And, believe it or not, you are neither qualified intellectually or emotionally to assess the nature and aspect of the larger conflict or determine the nature of the dilemma.
Really? You base this on you extensive knowledge of education and military background?
If you have a problem with this, you know where to reach me.
Third trailer park on the left. Gotcha.
Your silly remonstrations on this thread are boring me.
Boring you so much you respond again.
Thanks for the entertainment, liar.
82 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:25:49 PDT by Storm Orphan
You mean like Noah having sex with his daughters?
No---I do not. If you read Genesis--you will find that what the daughters did was a sinful act. They got their father drunk with wine and had sex with him. It was a terrible act that God judged.
So much for your "Two wrongs make it right" argument.
Is that how you justify "The Great Muhammad" raping a 9 year old?
I see.
83 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:31:43 PDT by SkyPilot
My vote too.
84 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:35:36 PDT by Samaritan
Read my post above, check those sites .
You are wrong compadre .
Cheese .
85 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:44:13 PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
See #37 and #55. Lot had sex with his daughters, not Noah.
And the Qu'ran does not justify any such thing as you say.
If you have evidence to the contrary, cite chapter and verse.
Thanks in advance.
86 Posted on 09/21/2001 15:45:52 PDT by Storm Orphan
Does any of this sound familiar?
Lately and with Arafat's growing suspicions of his aides and their ambitions, Khalid Salam has emerged as the most powerful Palestinian personality and the second strongest man after Arafat and the man most involved in secret, political missions. Khalid Salam joined in the negotiations with Israel and the Americans and also was being present at Camp David. He was sent by Yasir Arafat in January 2001 to hold secret talks in Vienna with an Israeli delegation that included Sharon's son. The report emphasizes that Khalid Salam who cannot afford to have any ambitions in the matter of the succession to Arafat and who is not affiliated to any Palestinian faction had been picked by Abu-Ammar to handle smoothing the path for Suha to take over. The report notes that Salam has held many internal and external contacts and that he charted the plan for Suha to succeed her husband. Khalid Salam, it adds, is skilled and has the ability to open the files of financial corruption of any one of the Palestinian officials and thereby kill their chances of contending with Suha for the post of president. Khalid Salam, as well as running financial investments and accounts, has access to files about the accounts, investments, and the embezzlement of funds by a number of the Palestinian Government officials. He is also said to have been quite instrumental in taking the lid off the embezzlements of Jawid al-Ghusayn, the head of the Palestinian National Fund, and capturing this Palestinian who had been privy to the bank accounts of Yasir Arafat.
PROMIS???
The report concludes that the road is now open for Suha to succeed her husband as president because of her acceptability among the Palestinian public. More important, the road before her has been smoothed on account of the fact that Suha is the only choice favored by Yasir Arafat, who sees her, under the current circumstances, as the one most likely to keep the Palestinian cause alive and to preserve national unity, as well as to head off a civil war or a risk laden power struggle over the succession between his political aides and the security people. Plus, the choice of Suha, from the point of view of Yasir Arafat, should halt outside inroads and plots.
It is the conviction of Abu-Ammar that his wife Suha is the only person who can fill the void that his departure would create. She would be the symbol that would be able to represent the Palestinian people and the one who could rally and unite them.
But when and how will Suha Arafat take over from her husband Yasir Arafat?
The same report emphasizes that Abu-Ammar's key plan seeks to pave the road for Suha Arafat to contest democratic elections that should see her win a popular vote. He adds, however, that the past few months have seen developments on the ground and behind the scenes push Yasir Arafat to speed up the implementation of the blueprint discreetly prepared jointly with Khalid Salam.
4th May, 2001: #1
Suha Arafat, wife of the Palestinian Authority chairman, shoots off her mouth. "I hate the Israelis," she declares. "I oppose normalization with them. Israeli women have attempted to make contact with me and I rejected them. I am giving an unequivocal message to all Israeli women proposing help for our institutions: you are responsible for the problems our children have. How do you dare to offer donations?"
This one is for you, Storm Orphan.
#2
"In place of business, I decided to ease the plight of the Palestinian woman. I succeeded, for example, in raising awareness against inter-marriage in Palestinian society, to prevent cases of handicapped children. I put pressure on Arafat to help us legislate a law that would oblige couples to undergo pre-marital medical testing. Despite his many occupations, he found the time to handle this issue."
87 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:09:47 PDT by NixNatAVanG InDaBurgh
I wish I knew what you are saying or why you addressed this to me.
88 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:20:11 PDT by Storm Orphan
Storm, I'm curious about something. You've engaged on this discussion quite fervently, yet in another thread you're a professed atheist. May I ask why an atheist has this much interest in a purely religious discussion?
Thx...
MM
89 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:43:07 PDT by MississippiMan
There's nothing so self-righteous as an ex-smoker.
Amen, brother.
90 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:43:42 PDT by xsysmgr
Read my post =). Check those links .
Cheese.
91 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:50:33 PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
Thanks to all who have replied to my original question. Since we're nearing a hundred posts and I still don't really have the answer I was looking for, I guess I must have poorly phrased it in my original post. I'll try again...
Several times lately I have read the passages from the Koran that warn Muslims to not be friends with Christians or Jews and the passages that essentially advocate their destruction. Where are the passages in the Koran that set aside, explain the context of, or refute those passages? For example, many Old Testament practices were done away with when Jesus came and died. Thus, the New Testament explains why some Old Testament situations are no longer appropriate. (Slavery is one example that comes to mind.) Where in the Koran can I see something similar that reverses the aforementioned passages which at least on the surface definitely appear to be filled with hatred for Christians and Jews?
Again, thanks for all the responses.
MM
92 Posted on 09/21/2001 16:50:58 PDT by MississippiMan
I wish I knew what you are saying or why you addressed this to me.
Hmm... I can help with the 'what' on Part I. But that's about all...
Khalid Salam, it adds, is skilled and has the ability to open the files of financial corruption of any one of the Palestinian officials and thereby kill their chances of contending with Suha for the post of president. Khalid Salam, as well as running financial investments and accounts, has access to files about the accounts, investments, and the embezzlement of funds by a number of the Palestinian Government officials. He is also said to have been quite instrumental in taking the lid off the embezzlements of Jawid al-Ghusayn, the head of the Palestinian National Fund, and capturing this Palestinian who had been privy to the bank accounts of Yasir Arafat.
PROMIS???
PROMIS is software written by an Virginian? firm, stolen by the government under Papa Bush. The government used it to piggyback bank software around the world so that operatives would have clandestine access to domestic and foriegn bank accounts. And the ability to use the information for political purposes. Or to simply steal money...
Essentially, the software was adopted around the globe, after being sold by CIA front companies.
I would suppose Nix's is suggesting that we have a hand in this, or that the key's to PROMIS have been turned over or discovered by Arafat. I can only imagine which beret stuffing president could have done that little bit....
There's probably info on PROMIS and INSLAW in the Downside Legacy. The flag to AG is for reference. Wallaby or someone else may be able to correct any misinterpretations I have relayed...
93 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:01:42 PDT by DAnconia55
#2 could be comparing Arafat's wife to Hillary, but I don't get the significance or line of reasoning...
94 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:10:22 PDT by DAnconia55
Absolutely.
I am an avowed atheist. My personal belief - born of my own moral code, Objectivism - is that all religion and superstition are immoral, because they are evasions of reality.
However, five things.
1) Because I am an Objectivist, a libertarian and a constitutionalist, I reject all "groupthink" and respect the right of each man to his conscience - be it Christian, Muslim, pagan, or what have you. As Thomas Jefferson said, it does me no harm if a man believes in one god or 20 or none, "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Now, if that man's actions, however, violate the rights of another, he is a criminal and should be treated as such. But no man should be branded a criminal for his beliefs alone.
2) I respect Free Republic and what it stands for, and I do not wish for people to get the impression that we are a safe harbor for bigotry. We are not. We are conservatives, libertarians and constitutionalists. Religious and racial bigotry has no place here.
3) I will defend to the death the right of all men to believe whatever they wish, even when they are wrong. I personally believe Muslims are wrong, as I believe Christians and all other theists are. I enjoy debating them in good faith and fellowship. But I will not stand idly by and watch them bashed simply for their beliefs, or see them slandered by thugs who do not even know of what they speak.
4) Though an atheist, I have endeavored to understand theistic beliefs, because they have and continue to influence politics and philosophy. I have read works by Buddhists, the Bible and Qu'ran, and I plan to read the Bhagavada Gita, and other religious works. I enjoy such discussion, and have gleaned certain important lessons from each I have studied, even if I reject all claims to divinity and the supernatural.
5) We have an enemy. It is a small minority of an otherwise worthy faith (worthy as any other, at least) that has struck terror on our shores. Any attempt to turn our just war against the guilty into a theistic crusade undermines our efforts.
95 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:25:42 PDT by Storm Orphan
On looks alone a closer comparison would be Arafat and Hillary.
96 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:27:07 PDT by Storm Orphan
it will never be any different in its future as it has been from the day it was conceived in the brain of a caravan-robbing Arab with a score to settle.
Pedophilic (his "favorite wife" was six years of age when he married her), misogynistic (I won't even start on that one), homophobic (if you think the _Bible_ has tracts against homosexuality!) caravan-robbing Arab with a score to settle.
By all means, lets be precise.
97 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:41:03 PDT by Abn1508
Thanks for your answer, Storm.
MM
98 Posted on 09/21/2001 17:42:53 PDT by MississippiMan
Looking at it "objectively", your own "moral code" is as worthy and valid as Osama bin-Laden's "moral code". While pursuing the 'do it your own way' guide in life conduct, the natural result is anarchy. That is just the way human beings are constructed. If bin-Laden were to decide it proper to flood the west with narcotics, you'd support the right of the individual to partake of those goods? Despite the objective of bin-Laden to destabilize the west? One man's moral code is another man's death sentence.
Words mean things. If the Koran states explicitly that non-Muslims be killed and/or treated as chattel, then that "religion" and "moral code" is criminal and at odds with human existence. It demands that it be defeated, stamped out and its adherents converted, by any means possible.
Actions speak louder than words. Radical Islam is clearly intent on war with non-believers. No matter the selected passages that allege peace and fraternity, the actions of the Radicals and the failure of Muslim majority states to squelch those Radicals serves notice to the rest of the world that like Communism, Islam must be crushed and destroyed.
99 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:03:02 PDT by Thumper1960
While pursuing the 'do it your own way' guide in life conduct, the natural result is anarchy. That is just the way human beings are constructed.
You are free to believe whatever you wish.
If bin-Laden were to decide it proper to flood the west with narcotics, you'd support the right of the individual to partake of those goods?
I support the right of individuals to do as they wish, so long as they do not violate the rights of others. If one contributes to the a criminal enterprise (Bin Laden) they may be prosecuted as criminals.
Words mean things. If the Koran states explicitly that non-Muslims be killed and/or treated as chattel, then that "religion" and "moral code" is criminal and at odds with human existence. It demands that it be defeated, stamped out and its adherents converted, by any means possible.
The Qu'ran does not state this. Please cite chapter and verse if you believe otherwise.
Actions speak louder than words. Radical Islam is clearly intent on war with non-believers.
I speak of Islam the religion, not how it is sometimes practiced by extremists.
No matter the selected passages that allege peace and fraternity, the actions of the Radicals and the failure of Muslim majority states to squelch those Radicals serves notice to the rest of the world that like Communism, Islam must be crushed and destroyed.
I and other Americans, including President Bush, will oppose you.
100 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:17:22 PDT by Storm Orphan
Looking at it "objectively", your own "moral code" is as worthy and valid as Osama bin-Laden's "moral code".
Only if you believe that objectively one has the right to violate the rights of another.
Objective reality shows otherwise.
101 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:19:22 PDT by Storm Orphan
The right wing christian extremist fringe gave us Timothy McViegh and various murders of abortion doctors.
I think McVeigh said he was either an athiest or agnostic.
102 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:25:32 PDT by Tribune7
Does that mean you defend the "right" of the Taliban to have whomever they wish in their own country, and reject a foreign country's demand that the Taliban hand over a guest in their country?
103 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:26:16 PDT by Thumper1960
Thanks to all who have replied to my original question. Since we're nearing a hundred posts and I still don't really have the answer I was looking for, I guess I must have poorly phrased it in my original post.
To study a religion, and be fair to it, you should study the founder of said religion. It is not accurate to judge a religion by how its adherents act. that would presuppose all religious humans even understand their beliefare(which is imbecilic), and are willing and capable of acting on it(which is self-deceiving). You must then, if you are serious about wanting to understand Islam, study Muhammad.
Muhammad is odd, he is unlike any of the founders of the great religions. He was a violent man in many ways, he lead military operations, and had people assassinated.
To those who say "Islam is a peacful religion" I just say: Its founder and his earliest disciples weren't. When they say "most modern Muslims are peacful and tolerant" I say: so what, most modern Christians do not adhere to Christ's teachings either.
104 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:29:42 PDT by Pelayo
Does that mean you defend the "right" of the Taliban to have whomever they wish in their own country
I think I made it abundantly clear anyone involved in or supporting a criminal conspiracy
deserves prosecution - domestic or abroad.
and reject a foreign country's demand that the Taliban hand over a guest in their country?
Our govt is constitiutionally empowered to prosecute all enemies, foreign or domestic.
Your complaints - there is no there there.
105 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:31:24 PDT by Storm Orphan
McVeigh returned to Catholicism at the end.
He confessed, he received Viaticum Extreme Unction and the last blessing
106 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:36:55 PDT by Malachi
On the other side of the coin, I've heard for many years that true Islam teaches peace and love, and that fundamental terrorists are aberrations not at all representative of the true spirit of Islam.
It's written in the Qur'an in Surah 5
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
We are considered a "Christian Nation" by the Muslims
107 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:42:03 PDT by StayoutdaBushesWay
Wondering what so many here I have learned from think of my #95 in response to *89 think.
* And may your God bless those like Officer Lehey.
108 Posted on 09/21/2001 18:58:16 PDT by Storm Orphan
Fascinating.
A Libertarian who believes the US has the right to force a sovereign nation to hand over a resident of that nation, without warrant or treaty and at the threat of military, economic and diplomatic force.
109 Posted on 09/21/2001 19:11:08 PDT by Thumper1960
Some things to keep in mind.
In very few, if any, Muslim countries of today are non-Islamic religions permitted to flourish. Muslims in Iran have long persecuted minority Zoroastrians - the oldest montheistic religion in existence. In Egypt, Christian orthodox Copts are regularly persecuted. In the Sudan, a war of extermination has been going on for some time against Christian tribes of the south. In Indonesia, there are periodic persecutians of Christians. Hindu and Muslim conflict is a regular fact of life in the sub-Continent. It is important to note that we are talking about acts of terror and murder, not mere name-calling or the writing of slogans on buildings.
Most Muslims, worldwide, view a theocratic Islamic state as the ideal social entity. This apparent basic philosophy of Islam is in direct conflict with our concept of a secular state.
Very few, if any, Muslim states have offered us unconditional support in fighting terrorists. There is always a condition or more attached in return for their assistance in combatting a problem which primary has arisen in their countries, not ours.
The Muslim population of the U.S., while growing, is still small in comaprision to the number of non-Muslims (Orthodox Islam does not regard "Black" Muslims as true Muslims. Black Muslims consider Elijah Mohammad a prophet. Orthodox Muslims consider Mohammad the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., the last prophet send by God. Black Muslims incorporate a racist theme into their belief. Orthodox Islam is refreshingly non-racist.) As such a small minority, the views their leaders officially express may not acurately reflect the true feelings of the Islamic population in America, just as in the case of the governments of Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Indeed, I can recall no instances of Japanese Americans or German or Italian Americans celebrating in the streets when Pearl Harbor was attacked.
Despite what has been recently said about Islam being a "peaceful" religion, it most assuredly is not. Islam is an uncompromisingly militant faith. The militancy may vary in different societies, but it is always there. The kind of ecumenical tolerance of other faiths expressed recently by Christians and Jews has no place in Islam.
The Crusdades of the Middle Ages did not occur as a spontaneous, unprompted act. Islam had used military force to overrun and convert much of the Middle East, North Africa and Western Asia LONG before the Crusades occurred, and this meant forcibly converting and conquering Christian peoples.
Islam attacked Europe first, invading the Iberian Peninsula in the 700's and spreading devastation with fire and sword as far north as Tours in northern France (check out a map - its near Paris) until stopped by Charles Martel. About the same time, Muslims invaded and conquered Sicily and southern Italy, overruning the Byzantine Greek possessions there. Muslim corsairs raided the shores of the Mediterranean and turned that body of water into a sea controlled in large part by their fleets. As a matter of fact, a historian once said that the Dark Ages were really created by Islam's control of the Mediterranean and the resultant isolation of Western Europe.
The Crusades themselves were generated by a change in Islamic rulers in Palestine. The Seljuk Turks took over from a Arab dynasty which had been more tolerant of Christian pilgrims. The Seljuks were recent converts to Islam and were vigorous in the persecution of Christian pilgrims. Hence, the Crusades.
After the fall of Constantinople (again, an attack by Islam against a Christian state) in 1453, Muslim Turkish Armies of the Ottoman Empire swept through the Balkans and invaded as far west as Vienna which they actually besieged. The seeds of hatred sown by their continued occupation of that area until the 1800's are seen today in Bosnia and Serbia.
In our early history, this country fought a war with the Barbary States in North Africa, another Islamic power. These nations held the countries of Europe to ransom or face the consequence of having their ships seized and the crews and passengers enslaved.
It has only been in the last two centuries that western Euorope was able to efectively dominate Islamic Africa and Asia, and not without substantial losses in men and material.
Until relatively recently, and right up to the present in the Sudan, slavery has been practised by Islamic societies LONG after this practise has been eradicated in the west.
Nor have Muslims been peaceful with one another. From the very inception of Islamic society, right up to the present, Islamic sociery has beem rife with blood feuds, purges, homicidal inter-family and intra-family vendettas, and bloody revolutions.
There are some very disturbing passages in the Koran about the proper realitonship between Muslims and non-Muslims.
Does this mean ALL Muslims are anti-western? Probably not. Should we be persecuting Muslims in America? Most certainly not - we are a society based on laws and certain premises of human rights and the brotherhood of all men. regardless of race or religion.
However, I do think we should keep Islam's past and present in mind when we formualte our domestic and foreign policies.
A lot of what I posted is ancient history, and European Christians were certainly capable of some very un-Christian acts. Recent events in the former Yugoslavia demonstrate this can occur even in the present. However, these acts are abberations in modern western society. Such is not the case in Islam. In the Islamic world, it is as if history has been arrested, and no progress made towards towards a more humanitarian society.
On the other hand, Islam has some very appealing virtues. It is a very moral religion, in the sense that early Christianity was moral. It is an uncompromisingly monotheistic religion with no confusing and seemingly illogical concepts like one God with three personalities. Islam is free of the hierarchial conplexities of western Christianity and its basic tenets can be easlity comprehended by the simpliest intellect. It is a virile religion, in the truest sense of that term.
How successful America is in the future, balancing all these varied aspects of Islam, while successfully isolating and destroying a band of fundamentalist fanatics dedicated to the destruction of western civilization, will impact the course of civilization for many centuries to come.
110 Posted on 09/21/2001 19:17:54 PDT by ZULU
A Libertarian who believes the US has the right to force a sovereign nation to hand over a resident of that nation, without warrant or treaty and at the threat of military, economic and diplomatic force.
Libertarians hold that no one may initiate force.
We hold that force used in defense or just retribution is always appropriate, regardless
of laws, regulations or treaty to the contrary.
National sovereignty means nothing when rights are violated.
I submit you should learn more about libertarianism before you make assumptions and criticism.
111 Posted on 09/21/2001 20:25:21 PDT by Storm Orphan
I asked him if Muslims prayed to Jesus Christ.... and he told me what I believe is blasphemy.***
The Jewish people hold the same belief. Not all religions believe in the Trinity of God. In the case of Islam, they are not that far removed from idol worship as the Christians and Jewish people are. In fact, you'll find some really weird cults in the M.E. Strange, like Romanian, Transylvania kind of strange that believe in idol worship.
Also factor in that we're dealing with third world people. Some have never seen a camera.
And then there's the 7 sects of the Moslem religion and they argue with each other just like the Catholics and the Protestants.
Then we get to the issue that many of these people have no medical attention, are facing starvation and an entire generation has seen nothing but war. Furtile ground for fanatical leaders.
112 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:09:48 PDT by The Documentary Lady
A summary on INSLAW/PROMIS from the Downside Legacy:
The Toronto Star 8/27/00 Valerie Lawton “… Bill Hamilton has spent the last decade telling a bizarre story about spies, computer software and conspiracies. The Inslaw story can spiral into an octopus of other odd- sounding conspiracy theories and allegations. Now he hopes Canada's Mounties will prove his tale is actually true. "It's the first time that there has been the possibility of a credible criminal investigation of this," Hamilton, owner of the tiny, Washington- based Inslaw Inc. software company, said yesterday in an interview. The Star revealed last week that the RCMP are investigating the possibility foreign spies used doctored software to hack into highly sensitive intelligence files. The Mounties have since confirmed they are looking into a possible breach of national security. Hamilton's stranger-than-fiction story - in brief - is the following: ……….
Not long afterwards, the justice department stopped making payments on the $10-million contract.
Hamilton alleges the U.S. government stole the software, then - along with the Israelis - sold pirated versions to intelligence agencies around the world.
He also believes those stolen versions were equipped with a hidden "trap door" that allowed spies to peek into top-secret databases and download any information they wanted.
The U.S. justice department has suggested the claims are fantasy.
From this point, the Inslaw story can spiral into an octopus of other odd- sounding conspiracy theories and allegations. ………”
113 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:09:50 PDT by Alamo-Girl
I submit you should learn more about libertarianism before you make assumptions and criticism.
I submit that the term "Ugly American" fits well.
114 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:11:31 PDT by Thumper1960
I submit that if you don't like Americans you can ^%$ off.
115 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:13:49 PDT by Storm Orphan
Thanks babe. I knew you'd come through.
Have yet though to figure out why that was posted to me. ;^)
116 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:14:27 PDT by Storm Orphan
McVeigh returned to Catholicism at the end. He confessed, he received Viaticum Extreme Unction and the last blessing
He was an atheist when the evil occurred.
117 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:19:58 PDT by Tribune7
A Libertarian who believes the US has the right to force a sovereign nation to hand over a resident of that nation, without warrant or treaty and at the threat of military, economic and diplomatic force.
AFTER aggression against us... the non-initiation of aggression principle holds.
In a paradigm in which Bin Laden hides behind our Western moral constructs of the Rule Of Law, of nations, of borders and treaties to protect his atrocities. In effect using our own goodness against us. We did not need a treaty to dispatch the Barbary Pirates, and we do not need a treaty to dispatch this filth...
This is not normal nation to nation discourse.
I suggest reciprocation. Coat all military munitions with pork fat. And make it known we'll bury them with bacon.
118 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:27:11 PDT by DAnconia55
You're welcome of course! I don't know why it was posted to you, I was just answering the request for information! Hugs!!!
119 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:29:29 PDT by Alamo-Girl
Hugs to you too, darling. (You can never get enough credit for your work.)
120 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:32:08 PDT by Storm Orphan
Thank you.
I flagged you as much for a possible addendum. If true, and Klinton facilitated transfer of this to Arafat, then it would make a notorious addition to your list.
121 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:33:01 PDT by DAnconia55
Not that we can prove it, of course.
But if it walks like a skunk, and smells like a skunk, it just might be a Klinton.
122 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:34:56 PDT by DAnconia55
Unfortunately, S.O. this poster speaks the truth about this deadly religion. Any religion which essentially subordinates the individual ego as does Islam is in its essence anti-Freedom. States which are controlled by followers of this religion do not allow others.
Its name tells the story "submission" with Islam you submit or become an enemy.
Its followers act as some Christians did hundreds of years ago.
Islam is a form of religious totalitarianism.
123 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:42:09 PDT by justshutupandtakeit
I think the Mounties were our best lead to getting solid information on the subject of INSLAW/PROMIS. But it appears the investigation was either frozen or hit a dead end. Sigh...
124 Posted on 09/21/2001 21:48:32 PDT by Alamo-Girl
Actually, the Hindus afre trying to impose their fairth on Muslims in kashmir, Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan, Christians in Nagaland and elsewhere. It is Hindus who burned missionary Graham Staines to death and now want to throw his wdow out of the country. It wasthe Hindu government's police who broke up a Christian religious festival with gunfire in 1997. It is Hindus who published a booklet on how to imlicate Christians and other religious minorities. Hindus raped nuns, murdered priests, burned churches, attacked Christian schools and prayer halls. And no one is unished for these things.
It was the Hindu militant BJP that destroyed the most revered mosque in India, the Babri mosque in Ayodhya.
Hindus are the ones who attacked the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the most sacred of Sikh shrines, the center and seat of their religion, their Vatican, their Mecca. Soldiers of Hindu India were caught a couple of months ago trying to set fire to a Sikh temple, called a Gurdwara. Sikh and Muslim villagers got together to stop tehm. Two independent investigations have shown that it was the Indian government itself that carried out the massacre of 35 Sikhs in Chithisinghpora in March 2000.
More than 200,000 Christians in Nagaland have been killed by the Hindu state. India has murdered over 250,000 Sikhs, over 75,000 Kashmiri Muslims, andtens ofthousands of others. The Movement Against State Repression reported that the Indian regime admitted to holding over 52,000 Sikhs as political risoners, without charge or trial. Some have been held since 1984. According to Amnesty International, they are also holding tens of thousands of other minorities as political prisoners. Wonderful democracy, eh?
125 Posted on 09/21/2001 22:12:42 PDT by TBP
Like Hebrew, that is how you read the original language of the Qu'ran.
Actually, the original language of the New Testament, at least, is not Hebrew, but Aramaic. The version of the Bible we have is an English translation of a Latin translation of a Hebrew translation of Aramaic, which is something like that old kids' game telephone. By the time your message gets to the other end, it is totally garbled.
I suspect that it's the same with the Koran.
126 Posted on 09/21/2001 22:17:33 PDT by TBP
Point taken. I just meant Hebrew is read right to left.
And you are more than right than I think any of us know.
Beautiful messages and important lessons get lost along the line.
Peace,
127 Posted on 09/21/2001 22:20:19 PDT by Storm Orphan
See #37 and #55. Lot had sex with his daughters, not Noah.
Well, gee, thanks. May I point out to you that you were the one who could not get the facts straight from the beginning: You mean like Noah having sex with his daughters? Your words.
So first you make the error, then call it a "Honest slip of the mind on Noah/Lot."
Nice double standard. Great work if you can get it.
As for your sudden thirst for chapter and verse--you can respond to what was posted in #25: Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities and grammatical errors. Could possibly the author of this Universe be as ignorant as it appears to be in Quran? Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85).
Further, if you an atheist--why did you try to use the Old Testament of the Bible as a point of your argument in the first place? Or is it you find the word of God a toy for you to use when it suits you?
And the Qu'ran does not justify any such thing as you say.
Listen, I don't need the Koran, or Qu'ran, to justify historical facts. Muhammand was an evil man who raped, murdered, and tortured people. Besides raping his 9 year old "wife"--he had an man in his late 80's murdered in his sleep. Not because the man was a physical threat to the Great Muhammad--but because he disagreed with him. My God condemns that.
And finally: I'm honestly not trying to attack the Bible.
We both know this is not true, don't we? So let's not play silly games.
I give you your welcome in advance.
128 Posted on 09/21/2001 23:27:03 PDT by SkyPilot
Actually, the original language of the New Testament, at least, is not Hebrew, but Aramaic.
Wrong! The New Testament was written in Greek. It is still translated from the original written language.
If ignorance is bliss, there are many happy people here.
129 Posted on 09/21/2001 23:28:19 PDT by DaveyB
*ping*
Just found this. But I can't read this tonight (this morning), I've been up all night again illuminating all this garbage from the anti-Islam brigades. They've been out in force since the Tuesday, they were on the case immediately trying to promote an American genocide against muslims in America and elsewhere.
Really makes me wonder what they have planned next.
Next time, an email might help. (smile)
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
130 Posted on 09/24/2001 05:17:44 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
The fact is that the language of Jesus and his disciples was Aramaic. The people of his time spoke and wrote Aramaic. Whatever was written in Greek or any other language is a translation from Aramaic, and there have been several stages of translation from there. As I said before, it's like a game of telephone. The further away you get from the original language of Jesus, the more distortion of his teachings we get. This is compounded by the personal agendas first of Paul and then of the Council of Nicea. Contact the Noohra Foundation in California for mroe information about this. The head of it, Rocco Errico, is a Bible scholar who studied with George Lamsa, a man who understood ancient Aramaic and went back and did a direct translation of the Bible, directly from Aramaic. To quote the writer Ernest Holmes, "The world has never followed the simple teachings of Jesus, yet it is loud in its proclamation that it is Christian."
131 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:11:13 PDT by TBP
The fact is that the language of Jesus and his disciples was Aramaic. The people of his time spoke and wrote Aramaic. Whatever was written in Greek or any other language is a translation from Aramaic, and there have been several stages of translation from there. As I said before, it's like a game of telephone. The further away you get from the original language of Jesus, the more distortion of his teachings we get. This is compounded by the personal agendas first of Paul and then of the Council of Nicea.
Contact the Noohra Foundation in California for more information about this. The head of it, Rocco Errico, is a Bible scholar who studied with George Lamsa, a man who understood ancient Aramaic and went back and did a direct translation of the Bible, directly from Aramaic.
To quote the writer Ernest Holmes, "The world has never followed the simple teachings of Jesus, yet it is loud in its proclamation that it is Christian."
132 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:11:40 PDT by TBP
I've got it now. Muslims are the crusaders, and we're the heathen.
Now what do we do?
133 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:57:12 PDT by Diojneez
are u being paid by islam people. all your information is wrong about india.
mosque at ayodhya was a hindu temple before it was demolished by moslems.
amritsar was attacked because militants were hiding inside the complex.
make sure u know what u r talking about
134 Posted on 09/24/2001 14:32:25 PDT by sickandtired
I am not paid by Muslims, and I do know what I am talking about. I work on South Asian issues. There were no "militants" in the Golden Temple, unless you buy the Indian government's definition of a "militant": anyone who disagrees with them. Last year, Rajiv Singh Randhawa, teh only eyewitness to the police kidnapping of human-rights activist Jaswant Singh Khalra (who later was murdered in police custody), was arrested outside the Golden Temple for trying to hand a petition to the British Home Secretary asking Britain to help with human-rights efforts.
The U.S. State Departmant reported in 1994 that the Indian government paid out 41,000 cash bounties to police officers to kill Sikhs. One police officer collected a bounty for killing a three-year-old child! Are these people all "militants"? How about the 52,000 Sikhs and tens of thousands of other minorities who are being held without charge or trial as political prisoners? Are trhey all "militants"? Waht about the 250,000 Sikhs, 200,000 Christians, 75,000 Muslims, and tens of thousands of Dalit "untouchables," Assamese, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minorities who are seeking their freedom who have been killed by the Indian government? Are tehy all "militants"?
As for Ayodhya, both sides claim to have had that ground originally, and it's much like the Israeli-Arab claims in the Middle East: at this point, no one knows for sure. Teh fact is that that is a revered place for Muslims and they had a temple there which was the most revered mosque in all of India. The government simply came and bulldozed it without provocation, and now they insist on putting up a Hindu temple there.
Try and take your blinders off. We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with militant fundamentalist Wahabi terrorists. It does nto help to enlist the assistance of a militant fundamentalist Hindu theocracy merely because they don't get along with Muslims. Especially when tehy have a long history of anti-American foreign policy.
Wake up. India is a repressive state and it is not a reliable ally.
135 Posted on 09/24/2001 15:08:28 PDT by TBP
Try and take your blinders off. We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with militant fundamentalist Wahhabi terrorists. It does not help to enlist the assistance of a militant fundamentalist Hindu theocracy merely because they don't get along with Muslims. Especially when they have a long history of anti-American foreign policy.
I wish it was only Wahhabi terrorists. Their "Salafi" organization in the United States, England, and elsewhere is the virtual twin of the Hizb-ut-Tahrir out of England that's also strangely not on the list of official terrorists in Bush's Executive Order freezing assets.
The Persian corruption has parties in America, too, including some respected academics you'll see on television as "spokesmen," and there's a bright shiny new sufi order from the southern republics nosing up to American officials in Washington.
And those are merely the colonialist parties I choose to mention among muslims, who have had the clever tactic of not doing anything to get on the lists. They're merely here to civilize the savages of the Lost Continent to foreign allegiances in the name of Islam, and at root it's the same Abbasid tyranny that destroyed the millennial musliim world and spawns the abominations rising from the old world.
And there are more parties raising their false flags of religion, some already quite high with supporters and parties all over the place. America is riddled with fifth columns preying on American tolerance and respect for freedom and privacy. We know who they are, they're coming to these forums now to lie against muslims and Islam, in brigades that have long years of practice in other Web discussion forums and mailing lists. Their agenda is plain.
There are at least three major parties behind the Tuesday terror, who benefit from the aftermath and reactions. One of them, yes, has as one of its heads that radical Wahhabism, exported from Saudi Arabia via a petroleum cash flow over the last fifty years. But they have lost the boat -- muslims in America do not stay "bought" for the Wahhabis because they couldn't buy us in the first place, they just imagined that.
That's why there's a terror war on America, to destroy it -- Americans are too unpredictable, too unreliable, too independent, too "corrupted" by notions of fair play and integrity and justice.
Don't react to imagination about muslims in America. Freeze the hypocrites in place with close scrutiny and go down and meet your muslim neighbors and take them at face value, even the hypocrites have to tell some of the truth, just to keep their pose. They'll all be dealt with in good time, and the nut cases will stumble and make mistakes and the FBI will scoop them up, hopefully as has been the usually consistent case, before they do anything.
There are more fearsome terrorists than the radical Wahhabis, others who engineered Timothy McVeigh and the World Trade Center and the Tuesday Terror. The evidence was there, the FBI just couldn't believe it meant anything. Now they're finding out otherwise.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
136 Posted on 09/25/2001 01:30:48 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
all i can say is for a person that works on south asian affairs, you are hopelessly misinformed and even worse very much prejudiced
137 Posted on 09/25/2001 07:46:32 PDT by sickandtired
You ahve twice said that I am misinformed and now you claim prejudice. Care to document that, or do you think that just claiming it often enough makes it true?
138 Posted on 09/25/2001 09:37:15 PDT by TBP
In the name of intellectual honesty, you can not fight something until you at least represent it sincerely and in good faith. Reading the passages you quoted it is clear that you have deliberately misrepresented/left out certain passages, eg why would you quote 2.191 and 2.193 but leave out 2.192? This piqued my curiosity so I looked it up. The Quran is widely available on the net.
Searchable Quran Browser with Multiple Translations
[al-Baqarah 2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[al-Baqarah 2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[al-Baqarah 2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[al-Baqarah 2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors. [al-Baqarah 2:194] During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.
[al-Baqarah 2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.
You have clearly shown dishonesty in quoting selectively from this full text. Given the context, what is there really to argue about from this quote? I find nothing in this to which to object.
It's one thing to say salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, but to bear false witness is just plain wrong.
139 Posted on 09/26/2001 00:11:44 PDT by English Rose
Sorry, let me try the link again: Quran Browser
SkyPilot then says verse 9.5 says slay them.
[at-Taubah 9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
[at-Taubah 9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[at-Taubah 9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.
[at-Taubah 9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.
[at-Taubah 9:8] How can they (demand a pledge) when they never observed any rights of kinship between you and them, nor any covenant, if they ever had a chance to prevail. They pacified you with lip service, while their hearts were in opposition, and most of them are wicked.
[at-Taubah 9:9] They traded away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. Consequently, they repulsed the people from His path. Miserable indeed is what they did!
[at-Taubah 9:10] They never observe any rights of kinship towards any believer, nor do they uphold their covenants; these are the real transgressors.
[at-Taubah 9:11] If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.
[at-Taubah 9:12] If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may refrain.
[at-Taubah 9:13] Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place? Are you afraid of them? GOD is the One you are supposed to fear, if you are believers.
140 Posted on 09/26/2001 00:25:57 PDT by English Rose
With the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in Islamic countries, Islam has become a serious and a real threat to the survival of our species.
It is doubtful the nearterm result will be all out destruction of Islam. More likely, this War on Terrorism, will aim to get control in place, of those who "practice" Islam. That means each nation must police the citizenry, well enough, so as to not endanger the rest of the worlds' non-muslim people.
Hence, Bush has effectively directed he forming of sides, and the threat of VERY SERIOUS consequences, for failure to do same. In other words, if the nations cannot or will not, we will have to do it.
After a reasonable opportunity for nations to control their citizens, if they fail, I would lose no sleep over the deaths of very large numbers of folks.
141 Posted on 09/26/2001 00:32:13 PDT by truth_seeker
The rest of the misquotes, any sincere person can easily look up for themselves. Another passage that is supposed to say you should kill all disbelievers is 47.4, but here's what it really says:
[Muhammad 47:4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Pretty fair rules predating the Geneva Convention.
(2.256) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
[Yunus 10:99] And if thy Lord had enforced HIS Will, surely, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wilt thou, then, force men to become believers ?
[Yunus 10:100] And no soul can believe except by the permission of ALLAH. And HE causes HIS wrath to descend on those who would not use their judgment.
142 Posted on 09/26/2001 00:43:24 PDT by English Rose
Good work.
143 Posted on 09/26/2001 09:00:09 PDT by Storm Orphan
The rest of the misquotes, any sincere person can easily look up for themselves.
Thank you. The anti-Islam brigades misquote out of context so much that it would take half of our time to respond to all of the slanders.
The Marmaduke Pickthall translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, a New American Library Mentor paperback, is down-to-earth with a good introductory capsule history of the revelatory period.
Here is something from among my own translations that may be reflective of what we are seeing in the media of "muslims" and also of the present state of translations:
He sends a rain from the sky
and as valleys wash to their destinies
The flood bears a rising fowm.
And from what they smelt in the fire
to forge adornment or wares,
a froth of its kind: That is how ALLAH coins the true and the vain.
Then as for the scum, it passes uselessly;
and as for what serves the people,
it remains in the earth:
That is how ALLAH strikes images.
(ar-Ra'ad, 17)
Pretty fair rules predating the Geneva Convention.
Comity -- the recognition by a sovereign of the sovereignty of another -- was revealed with Islam.
I hope some of this has been helpful.
Very much so, I appreciate any effort to illuminate deception, particularly now when the deceptions are so massively aimed at my family.
(Smile) Perhaps you would care to look at some more ...
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War" on America
A Moment for Truth
144 Posted on 09/26/2001 11:08:17 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
... and Michael Riconosciuto, a computer genius convicted and jailed in an exotic drug case who claims to have been hired to put the backdoor in PROMIS for the purpose of international espionage and money laundering. ..…
That's new to me. The name is familiar, though, I just can't place it. When did that come out?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
145 Posted on 09/26/2001 21:12:55 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I suggest that you preach to a muslim crowd. We have been inundated with this "but please!you have this all wrong" CRAP for two weeks now. How about you convince your cousins to read the Quoran correctly. I'm sick and tired of this....
146 Posted on 09/26/2001 21:25:20 PDT by wirestripper
Like Hebrew, that [right to left] is how you read the original language of the Qu'ran.
Actually, the original language of the New Testament, at least, is not Hebrew, but Aramaic. The version of the Bible we have is an English translation of a Latin translation of a Hebrew translation of Aramaic, which is something like that old kids' game telephone. By the time your message gets to the other end, it is totally garbled.
Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic Peshitta manuscript is interesting. My experience, however, is that the various translations of Scripture are substantially identical, they at least appear to have come from the same Hebrew and/or Aramaic. The changes we see were made after Solomon and before Jesus, as Jeremiah and the other post-Solomonic prophets testify, so it is not a surprise that the two canons are alike.
I suspect that it's the same with the Koran.
The Qur'an is in Arabic, we read it in the original Arabic, which like Hebrew is a multi-dimensional tongue. There are no recognized variants of the Arabic Qur'an. There are several English renderings, I favor the Mentor paperback The Meaning of the Glorious Koran by Marmaduke Pickthall, New American Library, which I also have in a hard-bound Arabic side-by-side published by the Sa'ud family.
American idiomatic English has astounding facility to render the original Arabic, but none of the "authorized" translations have been by Americans. All the "authorized" translations also follow the Abbasid jurisprudence, which added technical terms and a third-century gloss over the unchanged original Arabic. "If the hypocrites take over, then kill them wherever you find them" -- a clear revolutionary mandate -- becomes "If the hypocrites turn back, then kill them wherever you find them," which of course locks hypocrites into the community and makes apostacy a capital crime -- which it otherwise is certainly not.
But institutionalization calcified much in the millennial muslim world, just as it did with the Roman church and the Talmud. Here in America we have all had -- and all have -- an opportunity to read it for ourselves.
If, that is, we can avoid the brain police. So break out your tinfoil hat and pick up a good Book. It's always worth reading. Either one.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
147 Posted on 09/26/2001 21:34:18 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I suggest that you preach to a muslim crowd. We have been inundated with this "but please! you have this all wrong" CRAP for two weeks now. How about you convince your cousins to read the Quoran correctly. I'm sick and tired of this....
LOL! Maybe you need a new mouse, the one you have seems to click all by itself on stuff you don't want to read.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
148 Posted on 09/26/2001 21:42:00 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I meant what I said.. Half of the muslim world is threatening to kill us. The other half is telling us that it is not the muslim way. Through it all there has been only one statement I have read that makes sense and it came from the Iranians. Someone said "the terrorists bring disgrace on our people". No one else is saying this.. How about you?.....You think I'm a moron or something? Words mean a lot to me too. I don't appreciate sidestepping the issue.
149 Posted on 09/26/2001 22:15:26 PDT by wirestripper
A religion can be no better than its roots.
Christianity is based on the self-sacrifing and loving Jesus.
Buddhism is based on the self-denial of a meditating Buddha who left a noble's life to seek truth.
Hinduism is based on the abstract philosophical insights of the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita that teach that God and Man are one in the inner self.
Taoism is based on the insight of the perfect harmony of the Spirit which is called the Tao.
But Islam (and to a lesser extent Judaism from which the Koran borrows heavily) have more baser roots.
In Islam, you have a murderous, adulterous, uneducated, and intolerant, legalistic Mohammed who had sex with a 9-year old, and with his son's wife, who he stole from his son. This is where Islam gets its misogyny from. Women in Islam are just playthings that are not supposed to be seen or heard. Of course, Christ's attitude to women is the absolute opposite.
For Islam to extol a man who could not even control his gonads is quite pathetic. No man controlled by lust can be spiritual.
Mohammed was an evil man and therefore Islam has very evil roots.
Mohammed was full of violence and lust. He had no interest in self-sacrifice, no interest in truth, no interest in peace or harmony. His teachings were the ramblings of a mad man with an occasional verse that was lifted straight out of the Old Testament. It is believed that Mohammed used to hear voices. So too did the Son of Sam!!
This constant blathering about Islam is a "religion of peace" is PC nonsense taken to its extreme.
Everywhere where Islam is in competition with another religion - it is waging war against it. IN EVERY CASE. There is NO tolerance within this religion - NONE! It doesn't matter if it is Christianity, Judiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, or even Animism.
Islam can rise no higher than its founder and that is Mohammed - who's first acts after rising to power was to slaughter all of his enemies and wage a very effective war to conquer much of the world for Islam.
Islam is still fighting that war and it will have to be destroyed or we will be destroyed. This is no different than the struggle against Communism.
Islam is the enemy.
150 Posted on 09/26/2001 22:32:53 PDT by Scorpio
Wheeeeoooooo! Bump!
151 Posted on 09/26/2001 22:40:25 PDT by wirestripper
Ping!
152 Posted on 09/26/2001 22:53:50 PDT by jwh_Denver
Bump!
People should see this falsification and demonization so when they meet their neighbors who are muslims they'll recognize this anti-Islam brigade boilerplate stuff for what it is.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
153 Posted on 09/26/2001 23:45:06 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
If I could take you to task and point out a few facts which discredit some of the abovementioned polemic myths.
Ayesha was not 9 when she was married. All the evidence points to her being more like 19... What was Ayesha's age?
This proof, that she led men into battle, also puts paid to the myth that the women of Islam are to be subjugated. How many generals in the US armed forces are female? I know here there are none.
Secondly in the time of Caliph Omar, there was regular shura or consultation (democracy) in the mosques over public policy. During one such discussion, a woman stood up and contradicted the Caliph, ruler of the entire Muslim world. She cited quotes from the Quran as her reasoning, and the Caliph conceded the point.
Thirdly, many of the hadith (traditions), and fatwas (religious rulings) in today's Shariah and Islamic jurisprudence come from women. Ayesha is one such person, in itself more proof that she could not have been aged 9. Indeed she was considered to be a learned teacher and font of knowledge in a wide range of subjects from history to medicine to theology.
The Islamic authority in Iran has stated that there is no reason that a woman can not be Supreme Spiritual Leader; it is a matter only of qualifications, not of gender. Women lead congregational prayers in mosques and have judgeships all over Islamdom. Personally I too disagree with any quota system or positive discrimination.
Hope this is helpful.
154 Posted on 09/27/2001 00:50:21 PDT by English Rose
How many Christians and Jews remain in Mecca today?
155 Posted on 09/27/2001 00:59:41 PDT by lightstream
I was only trying to point out that both the Bible and Qu'ran have verses which, lifted from context, might seem to advocate or endorse all manner of depravity, silliness, or violence.
Your problem SO, is that the Bible has a context. It is written in context, so it is obvious when a verse is taken out of that context.
The Qu'ran has absolutely no context whatsoever. It is merely a conglomeration of one sentence statements allegedly made by Mohammed. They are entirely open to subjective interpretation, but when the words of those sentences are read in the context of the sentences in which they appear, and when they are read in the context of the entire Qu'ran, it is obvious that Islam does not teach peace, but war, it does not teach tolerance, but intolerance.
156 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:12:35 PDT by P-Marlowe
How many Christians and Jews remain in Mecca today?
You can count them all on the hand of any convicted thief in Saudi Arabia.
157 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:15:04 PDT by P-Marlowe
Get your stories straight.
Look who's talking. You've made some unbelievably stupid mistakes on this thread. Noah had sex with his daughters? Lot gave his daughters to angels for a gangbang? Are you drunk tonight?
158 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:23:53 PDT by #3Fan
All the more reason not to keep supporting the unholy Saud family dictatorship and other tin pot tyrants in the region.
159 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:31:26 PDT by English Rose
It's one thing to say salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, but to bear false witness is just plain wrong.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
Read the above. Is that false witness? Your interpretation of plain passages out of the being Koran "out of context" is whatever you claim it to be.
(Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax
There is no way to take this "out of context." It is brutal in any form. Christ never taught anything like this.
The passage from Christ is very clear. Do you hear it? It cannot be take "out of context" because God speaks the truth in all forms. Is the above passage "false witness?" Only if you don't believe.
Make your choice. You will have eternity to live with it.
160 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:32:02 PDT by SkyPilot
For many reasons, several hundred years ago, a more fundamentalist dogma dominated Islam, and after a period of true enlightenment and science - they led in medicine, astronomy, mathematic, etc. - much of that world stepped back into their own Dark Ages.
Who led in astronomy and math? What nation?
161 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:33:20 PDT by #3Fan
Are you disputing any of my post or was that a tangent?
162 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:35:45 PDT by English Rose
I pointed to your errors re 2.191 and 2.193, and 9.5.
Offer your counter-argument.
163 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:39:13 PDT by English Rose
. I have read works by Buddhists, the Bible and Qu'ran...
You must've not payed too much attention since you don't even know the well-known points of Lot's story.
164 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:43:34 PDT by #3Fan
I submit you should learn more about libertarianism before you make assumptions and criticism.
I submit you learn more of the bible before you go trying to tell it's story.
165 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:49:53 PDT by #3Fan
you quoted:
(Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax
The Quran actually reads:
[al-Anfal 8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.
[al-Anfal 8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.
[al-Anfal 8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.
[al-Anfal 8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[al-Anfal 8:62] If they want to deceive you, then GOD will suffice you. He will help you with His support, and with the believers.[al-Anfal 8:63] He has reconciled the hearts (of the believers). Had you spent all the money on earth, you could not reconcile their hearts. But GOD did reconcile them. He is Almighty, Most Wise.
[al-Anfal 8:64] O you prophet, sufficient for you is GOD and the believers who have followed you.
[al-Anfal 8:65] O you prophet, you shall exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty of you who are steadfast, they can defeat two hundred, and a hundred of you can defeat a thousand of those who disbelieved. That is because they are people who do not understand.
[al-Anfal 8:66] Now (that many new people have joined you) GOD has made it easier for you, for He knows that you are not as strong as you used to be. Henceforth, a hundred steadfast believers can defeat two hundred, and a thousand of you can defeat two thousand by GOD's leave. GOD is with those who steadfastly persevere.
[al-Anfal 8:67] No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
As I keep saying, there are plenty of sound theological arguments Christians can use against Islam. However, lying never has been the true Christian way, nor shall it ever be.
166 Posted on 09/27/2001 01:55:11 PDT by English Rose
Thanks for the site.
167 Posted on 09/27/2001 02:11:27 PDT by BunnySlippers
For Mohammed's view of women: Islam's Persecution of Other Faiths Around The World Today
168 Posted on 09/27/2001 06:29:48 PDT by Scorpio
Islam's Persecution of Other Faiths Around The World Today
Islam's Despicable Treatment of Women"
169 Posted on 09/27/2001 06:31:16 PDT by Scorpio
Well, unless Ayesha was placed in cryogenic storage - she would not have stayed 9 years old for the rest of her life and would have reached 19. SO WHAT!
The fact is - she was 9 when she was given to Mohammed who had a fondness for the very young and very old.
Islam does not stand up under scrutiny because its founder was no better than Jim Jones.
170 Posted on 09/27/2001 06:35:03 PDT by Scorpio
Christians and Jews are specifically defined in the Quran as "Peoples of the Book" (Ahl al-Kitaab). We should not be considered "infidel" since we do believe in "The One God". To force us to convert or kill us in the attempt, if you actually believe any of this, should on the surface be deeply sinful.
It seems to me your people attack us because of wrongs committed by our ancestors nearly a thousand years ago (the Crusades) and because we do not accept Mohammed, a man.
If my family and I are going to be targets, I want to know specifically why. It won't affect my response to the threat, use you wildest imagination for that one, but let's get the terms of why some of your compatriots want me and mine dead clear. The current verbage being thrown around about a peaceful Islam is getting a bit too thick for my taste.
171 Posted on 09/27/2001 07:31:11 PDT by katana
Well, unless Ayesha was placed in cryogenic storage - she would not have stayed 9 years old for the rest of her life and would have reached 19. SO WHAT!
The fact is - she was 9 when she was given to Mohammed who had a fondness for the very young and very old.
That simply is not a fact. We know she was 19 when she accepted his offer.
One story-teller in Baghdad known to have a bad memory misremembered one incident, and his mistake was recorded. Every other historical evidence, including the date of her death and age at her death, show she was 19. The anti-Islam brigades have locked on that one erroneous report and ignored all historical evidence that shows it to be error.
Islam does not stand up under scrutiny because its founder was no better than Jim Jones.
Typical. Beyond xenophobia to demented demonization. And you wonder why one fifth of the human species "follows a madman." Who are the madmen here?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
172 Posted on 09/27/2001 12:11:20 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Christians and Jews are specifically defined in the Quran as "Peoples of the Book" (Ahl al-Kitaab). We should not be considered "infidel" since we do believe in "The One God". To force us to convert or kill us in the attempt, if you actually believe any of this, should on the surface be deeply sinful.
It is not only sinful, it is forbidden, and it isn't done:
There is no compulsion in religion: good sense is distinct from corruption. So whoever refuses corruption and keeps faith with God, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And God is the Hearing, the Knowing."--Qur'an 2:256
There are verses in the Qur'an that are more well-known than this one, but not many.
It seems to me your people attack us because of wrongs committed by our ancestors nearly a thousand years ago (the Crusades) and because we do not accept Mohammed, a man.
Our people do not attack you. It has been made to seem like that deliberately and falsely.
If my family and I are going to be targets, I want to know specifically why.
We are targets because we actually have freedom of and from religion.
We abide in the tents of Shem, the religions of the House of Abraham -- all of us Jews, Christians, muslims, irreligious and atheist alike -- in America. Here are the freedoms of religious belief and practice -- freedom of and freedom from religion -- that threaten those behind the terror war. We do not believe that anyone has a claim from God to sit in judgment on everyone else. American Jews do not follow the orders of Tel Aviv, American Catholics do not accept the authority of Rome, American muslims do not swear allegiance to any of the Arabs or their followers, and Americans do not concern ourselves with the religious nut next door -- who, according to some educated minds, irrationally believes in "God" or some such fantasy -- unless and until he makes a problem out of it that endangers others or harms them. That's American law and in a situation that appears unique in the world, Americans basically respect the law.
Muslims didn't do this and aren't behind it, we're the first target of it. It is Islam in America -- utterly beyond the control of any party or doctrine from the terminally-collapsed millennial muslim world -- that threatens those behind this terror war, and the integrity and fundamental piety of the American people that threatens them even more.
Those bent on destroying us claim exclusive authority from God to rule the world. Americans won't accept that. So we have to be removed. The terror war has nothing to do with our demented foreign policy in the Middle East, it has to do with our basic sense of fair play and rejection of insane claims to a "natural" or "God-given" supremacy of one family of man over all others.
It won't affect my response to the threat, use your wildest imagination for that one, but let's get the terms of why some of your compatriots want me and mine dead clear.
Once you see the actual terms -- above -- perhaps you will see our common enemy.
The current verbiage being thrown around about a peaceful Islam is getting a bit too thick for my taste.
I see -- and all the demonization -- the stale hornbook slanders -- against me and my family, and the comprehensive falsification of the well-known faith of one out of five human beings -- that's supposed to be palatable to me? How is it that only in America is Islam a complete stranger to so many educated people?
And what do I say to the guy at (512) 892-5453 (on my Caller ID, recorded now by my local police authorities -- I don't know how that can be falsified) who called me at 10:34 Pacific time today to yell unintelligible curses in my ear? Do I tell him that it's "getting a bit too thick for my taste"?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.<p
173 Posted on 09/27/2001 13:18:43 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
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