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Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war",[Surya 9-5] and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."
This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"
We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."
Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."
Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."
I note that Bin Ladin uses Surya 9-5 at the start, "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war".
I guess to Bin Ladin, the terrorist sleeper agents were properly lying in wait, and flying jetliners into the World Trade Center and Pentagon was just a strategem of war.
I am keenly interested in what students of the Koran have to say about Bin Ladin's Fatwa.
1 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:17:25 PDT by Travis McGee
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2 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:19:12 PDT by Travis McGee
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3 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:20:17 PDT by Travis McGee
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4 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:21:15 PDT by Travis McGee
What I am curious about, when he says to "Kill Americans," does he mean Muslim Americans too?
5 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:21:49 PDT by xm177e2
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6 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:22:26 PDT by Travis McGee
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7 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:23:36 PDT by Travis McGee
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8 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:24:44 PDT by Travis McGee
No, there are no "Muslim Americans" to Bin Ladin, only Muslims who should kill Americans, after "lying in wait" in the enemy land.
9 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:26:18 PDT by Travis McGee
Travis, if this is false, may you rott in Hell for passing something like this along.
But if it is honest...
Thanks and may God bless you for keeping your eyes open.
10 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:28:40 PDT by Hunble
23 February 1998? Sorry Travis, this is kinda "old news", but you did a great job finding this from the archives.
11 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:31:43 PDT by Hunble
"The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people . . . "
Sounds like Osama and Saddam might have a few mutual interests. Saddam was in on this . . .
12 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:32:15 PDT by Neanderthal
Is OBL a cleric (pardon my ignorance)? Where does he get standing (within the context of Islam) to issue something like this? Can any fanatic do so?
13 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:33:59 PDT by HiTech RedNeck
Thanks for posting this, Travis.
I have been thinking ever since the bombing that this alone should be our justification for killing Bin Laden, regardless of his involvement in the WTC. And we should proclaim to the world that this is our justification and our evidence against him.
If we are serious about this war on terrorism we certainly are going to have to take out any important leaders who take such positions as this. The Bill of Rights does not apply.
14 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:41:04 PDT by Smittyat90210
I bump this and the comments .
Remember, also that a strategy sometimes used in war is deception .
Cheese .
Got Jesus ?
15 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:43:42 PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
I have been thinking ever since the bombing that this alone should be our justification for killing Bin Laden, regardless of his involvement in the WTC. And we should proclaim to the world that this is our justification and our evidence against him.
That has been my thought as well.
We should say, "regardless of the evidence linking OBL to the WTC/Pentagon disasters, he has previously formally declared war on the USA, so the USA is justified in waging war on him in return, period."
Of course, I also feel the same way about any moron demonstrator waving a "death to America" sign...
16 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:44:52 PDT by Dan Day
Bush is saying "you're with us or you're against us," Bin Ladin must be saying the same thing to American Muslims.
Some FReepers have said "you can't be a Muslim AND an American at the same time," apparently that's what Usama believes too. (I'm with you, let's just ask them to show they're Americans and work with us to root out the crazies, then we can accept them as loyal citizens)
Christian loonies like Jerry Falwell and Muslim loonies like Usama both agree America had it coming for religious reasons, left-wing loonies and right-wing loonies all agree we had it coming for political reasons...
This is very strange, the extremists all agree with each other and disagree with all of the moderates. Maybe all of us moderates will have to go to war with the Buchanan/Raimondo/Fonda/Usama/Robertson combined Jihad/Crusade/Anti-Imperialist Revolution/Counter-Revolution...
Just think, if we went to war like that, with one well-tossed hand grenade (or 20mm OICW round) you could kill people from a dozen different political parties...
17 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:48:32 PDT by xm177e2
Ben Ladin is a pathogenic virus attacking a vulnerable organism. It is all part of the end times madness. The blind attacking the blind. It is time for people to wake up. The old state of rebellion and its paradigm dissolves. Ladin is one sick piece of work but there are other pathogens in the wing. Let us build up our immune system by seeking the Truth and revealing the new paradigm
18 Posted on 09/23/2001 01:59:06 PDT by lightstream
I also would like to hear comments from any Moslems reading this. We are told again and again that the Islam is a peaceful religion, but we get quotes from the Koran from Bin Laden justifying his actions. I have a feeling that given the level of fanaticism involved here that "moderate" Muslims in the US who stand firm against violence are probably in danger on 2 fronts: the blind rage of ignorant Americans who lash out at all Muslims, and probably more dangerous the wrath of the fanatic Muslims among us who see them as traitors to the "holy cause". How many moderates will be driven into the ranks of the fanatics? Any comments?
19 Posted on 09/23/2001 04:40:54 PDT by Proverbs2
Thanks Travis....bump.
20 Posted on 09/23/2001 04:41:40 PDT by PjhCPA
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21 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:03:09 PDT by Chapita
I think the normal interpretation of "pagans" in this Koran passage does not include Christians and Jews, whose religions are "religions of the book" that Muslim rulers in the past have tolerated. bin Laden seems to take a different view.
22 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:05:13 PDT by aristeides (demosthenes@olg.com)
I noticed that this declaration is 3 years old. He had his supporters before this and he has his supporters now but he hasn't gotten a lot of support among mainstream Muslims in the interim, has he?
23 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:09:53 PDT by Non-Sequitur
We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.
The Bin Laden group (or at least some people with advance knowledge of the WTC attack) were active in the stock options market in the days leading up to the attack.
Somebody who can precisely predict when a major fall in stock prices will occur, can triple their money in the options market. You think they would have been able to resist the temptation to make a hundred million dollars?
24 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:18:22 PDT by SauronOfMordor
If there weren't any "holy places" would that mean that this fatwah would be null and void?
5.56mm
25 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:24:59 PDT by M Kehoe
opps, "..that the Islam" should be "..that Islam". need more coffee
26 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:28:56 PDT by Proverbs2
Agreed. It also seems that Bin Laden sees us as attacking Islam and he is just defending.
27 Posted on 09/23/2001 05:31:31 PDT by Proverbs2
You think they would have been able to resist the temptation to make a hundred million dollars?
Especially not if they can claim it was all done out of their religious beliefs.
28 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:04:47 PDT by FITZ
It probably won't get reported in the US, but Saddam offered it condolances to American civilians and offered intelligence assistance.
29 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:16:48 PDT by Kaj
I am not sure how within Islam it is determined just who may issue a Fatwa. There is no "Islamic Pope", I think that leadership is much more open to anyone who can claim wide followership.
30 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:21:10 PDT by Travis McGee
I think that the radical islamicists have cowed and terrorized the moderates into silence.
All we get from our "moderate" Moslems are denunciations of the WTC act, but at the same time none dare put out a Fatwa against Osama Bin Laden. If they did, they know full well they would be killed by covert agents of the fanatics.
IOW, radical Islam spreads through terror, which is used to silence and disempower the non-radicals.
This is at work around the world as well as in the USA.
31 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:27:03 PDT by Travis McGee
Ping.
32 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:36:42 PDT by Travis McGee
If making a "killing" in the options on airline stocks helps the cause of the "holy jihad" then it is of course blessed by this Fatwa.
Have you noticed that none of our Koranic scholars has been by to denounce this Fatwa as a fraud?
If it is a fraud, I would hope someone would prove it.
33 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:49:18 PDT by Travis McGee
Public opinion polls in Arab/Muslim countries are non-existent but if one had to hazard a guess, its safe to say the overwhelming majority of Arabs/Muslims (with a handful of exceptions) support terrorism, violence, and murder against Israelis and Americans. In the PLO zones where polls have been conducted, public approval of such attacks is staggering. And what we've seen in the West, its clear that on the Arab street the legitimacy of extremist violence and savagery is not confined to a marginal group of fringe extremists but is in fact the view of the vast popular majority. We in the West would like to think every one especially a MAJORITY of people everywhere oppose terror, murder, and violence, but unfortunately this is not the case. Now its true most Arabs/Muslims do not themselves in engage in terrorism, violence, and murder but that is not the point. After all a majority of Germans in Nazi Germany did not personally take part in the Holocaust either, neverthless overwhelmingly supported genocide of the Jews. There is the same phenomenon here and the most Arabs/Muslims have been Nazified to an extent unprecedented in history. As the U.S and the U.K move to attack Islamist Nazis in the Arab/Muslim world, its safe to predict that if any thing the already deep-rooted hatred of the West and America will increase accordingly. Let's make no mistake about it: while one would wish the Islamist Nazis were an extremist faction shunned by the overwhelming majority in the world from which they come from, the empirical reality demonstrates the opposite is true. Therefore if history is any guide we will be in for a long and arduous struggle to make the world safe for freedom and democracy.
34 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:51:19 PDT by goldstategop
It probably won't get reported in the US, but Saddam offered it condolances to American civilians and offered intelligence assistance.
Oh gee, that's good enough for me, that certainly proves that Saddam has moved over to the side of righteousness.
I wonder why in the days after 9-11 all of the papers in Iraq were calling the WTC destruction a righteous act?
The Iraqi papers must be full of brave dissidents to oppose the word of Saddam.
< /sarcasm >
Now will you please address this Fatwa?
35 Posted on 09/23/2001 07:53:32 PDT by Travis McGee
There is no way to tell what percentage of the moslem world supports the Fatwa of Osama Bin Ladin and his mega murdering tactics, and what percentage has merely been cowed into silence through fear of certain death at the hands of radical assassins.
36 Posted on 09/23/2001 08:01:06 PDT by Travis McGee
bump
37 Posted on 09/23/2001 11:52:13 PDT by patent
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39 Posted on 09/23/2001 13:04:35 PDT by Travis McGee
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40 Posted on 09/23/2001 15:54:24 PDT by Travis McGee
As someone who is knowledgeable about the Koran, will you please address Bin Ladin's Fatwa, and the use of Koranic passages to order the killing of all Americans?
41 Posted on 09/23/2001 15:58:30 PDT by Travis McGee
Not many takers, huh? Thanks for the flag.
42 Posted on 09/23/2001 16:13:32 PDT by nunya bidness
What - no flag for me?
Very good find.
I heard a discussion on FOXNews about a "terrorist manual" that investigators have found in some of the recent raids. It gives common-sense instructions to "sleepers" in our land. Advice such as "shave your beard, avoid any appearance of being Islamic, do not address each other with 'Allah ahkbar(sp?)', don't park in no-parking zones, don't live near police stations, find residence in newly-built neighborhoods - where no one knows anyone else," etc... They said it has been fully translated and they were openly discussing it. I wonder if it's available online or anywhere else?
From post 38 : <
if a Muslim murders a non-Muslim, he will only pay a fine. Dr. Abdul Moumin says, "All Muslims Jurists agree that a judge should be a Muslim and it is forbidden for a non-Muslim to be a judge according to the Qur’anic verse
What was this nonsense with Afghanistan agreeing to turn over OBL if the US had "significant evidence" against him??? Yeah, sure - they 'lost" him too...
43 Posted on 09/23/2001 17:59:33 PDT by pocat
I'll put you on my WTC flag list.
Did you notice that none of the staunch defenders of Islam has been by to tackle ABL's Koran-based Fatwa to kill all Americans?
44 Posted on 09/23/2001 22:06:56 PDT by Travis McGee
No takers. Apparently our Islamic experts find this one too thorny to touch, which is telling.
45 Posted on 09/23/2001 22:35:16 PDT by Travis McGee
I think CAIR and the rest are going to sit this one out as much as the enviros are. They're going to let the lobbyists in DC do the talking. All in the name of "better relations."
46 Posted on 09/23/2001 22:40:30 PDT by nunya bidness
I think the FBI is doing the talking to CAIR and the AMC.
At least I hope so.
47 Posted on 09/23/2001 22:43:54 PDT by Travis McGee
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48 Posted on 09/24/2001 00:28:03 PDT by Travis McGee
Ping.
49 Posted on 09/24/2001 00:42:36 PDT by Travis McGee
Is OBL a cleric (pardon my ignorance)? Where does he get standing (within the context of Islam) to issue something like this? Can any fanatic do so?
As I understand it, a fatwah can only be issued on behalf of a nation-state. I remember reading that any fatwah issued by an individual can safely be ignored by any moslem. (*)
The same applies, I understand, to the lesser jihad (or holy war) whereas the greater jihad (or struggle against wrong-thinking) can and should be invoked by an individual .. but it only applies to him/herself.
(*) The fatwah issued against Salman Rushdie by the late Ayatollah Khomeini was issued by the Ayatollah in his role as supreme cleric of Iran. It still stands, because Khomeini died before it could be revoked.
NB: I am NOT a Moslem, nor a true scholar of Islam .. merely a journalist who has an interest in covering all sides of this issue.
Sadim
50 Posted on 09/24/2001 04:16:48 PDT by sadimgnik
No takers. Apparently our Islamic experts find this one too thorny to touch, which is telling.
Wow. Could you send me an email next time you find something you would like me to see? There's no possibility of my keeping track of the incoming stream here.
I shredded this so-called "fatwa" days ago in another set of forums, I'll pull out the text and post it here tomorrow, God willin' and the creek don't rise. I'm too fatigued right now.
Suffice to say for now that it's nonsense, it doesn't read like a fatwa, it has none of the foundations of a fatwa, and is not only null and void but invokes capital penalties on those who follow it as far as bloodshed.
It's too much. I'm one muslim against the anti-muslim brigades that have swarmed over every media information outlet starting two minutes after the first plane hit the Towers. I need some help finding the stuff I need to illuminate, this darkness is being spread like never before in American history. Makes me wonder what they have planned next, this Tuesday Terror sure has a primary purpose to pit Americans against American muslims.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
51 Posted on 09/24/2001 05:32:18 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be one of your 'Islamic experts' because I spoke out against your tainting of all muslims with bin Landen's brush, but here goes. I'm no religious scholar at all, but if the translation is accurate I'd be curious to know what the forbidden months are. I do know that one of the fundamental tenets of Islam, is that the power of judgement belongs only to Allah, and the quote should be read in that context. I do know that the Bible and the Torah are full of similar quotes. I've never touched the book in my life, but if I was a betting man I'd say we could find something similar in the Book of Mormon, and just about any ancient religion you care to name. Christian have carried out Holy Wars based on this sort of thing in the past. Yet to suggest now that the Bible justified the Crusades, or an aggressive war on non-Christians everywhere today, would be scoffed by Christians and their religious leaders of any denomination. Likewise to take a passage from the Koran and suggest it implies that it is a holy duty of all muslims to kill all unbelievers is naiive. The Koran can be interpreted in a fundamental way, justifying violence. So can the Bible. That's an unfortunate thing. A terrible thing, but not a reflection on other believers of that faith. Yet modern Islam, like modern Christianity, has rejected such an interpretation of their holy books, and nobody of any religious standing - Patriach, Pope, Vicar or Reverend, Rabbi or Muslim Cleric - indeed no truly religious person could interpret it in that way. As such, I don't think we can take from this, as I think you suggest (and I'm sorry if that's not what you're suggesting), that Islam or Muslims as a group are responsible.
52 Posted on 09/24/2001 05:34:42 PDT by Kaj
From previous post:
On 22 February 1998 a new fatwa was issued in the name of the 'World Front for Jihad against Jews and Crusaders'. It was signed by bin
Laden and the heads of major Islamic movements in Egypt, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
So much for the myth of Islam considering Jews and Christians as "People of the Book" and not as infidels to be destroyed. Oh, wait, I get it!
Islam believes that, it's just all those people who consider themselves Muslim who don't. Well, that's a relief. If Islam really teaches the
opposite of what they say they'll do and what they try to do and actually do do, then we don't have anything to worry about......
That some
people actually believe this just boggles the mind. Who cares whether "true" Islam teaches this or that? That's irrelevant when there are lots
of people trying to kill you for what they think is true Islam. Those folks aren't going to care what you say about the 'true meaning' of their
religion, because they've already decided that its true meaning is that you should die. The only thing that counts is to find a way to stop them.
And it's not going to be through a rap session on comparative religions.
This all reminds me of the argument advanced by nuclear-winter proponents. They said that since it's true that a single nuclear weapon's launch would inevitably lead to a wholesale exchange and plunge the world into certain nuclear winter, the only sane approach is to foreswear all use of nuclear weapons and unilaterally disarm. So, if we grant them for the sake of argument their scenario in all its horror, we still have to realize that if someone with a nuclear weapons arsenal doesn't believe that his actions will lead to such an outcome, he must be dealt with on the basis of his belief, not upon whatever happens to be factually true. The way to deal with him is to convince him, on the basis of his belief, that if he tries a first strike he will become immediately and completely toasted. It's on the basis of your opponent's belief that you have to deal with him, not on what you think is objectively true.
53 Posted on 09/24/2001 05:39:03 PDT by aruanan
Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem.
"According to the Islamic science called "Usul al-fiqh" (Principles of Jurisprudence), a fatwa is binding when these four conditions are satisfied:
1) It is in line with relevant legal proofs, deducted from Koranic verses and hadiths;
2) It is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart;
3) It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude;
4) It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world."
What is omitted is "Amana," or "Trust." The one who issues a fatwa is the one who is specifically and by oath of allegiance empowered to render a decision. Without "Amana," which is the source of authority drawn from the Law, nothing purporting to be a fatwa is binding or actionable, it is merely posturing and pretense.
This so-called "fatwa" fails on all five foundations. There are never "four" of something like this, it is always five: five foundations of Islam, five foundations of the community, and five foundations of the Law.
Here are these lies posing as religion:
"No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone."
This is false on its face. None of these pretenders knows what is "known to everyone." God knows that, they here pretend to, the language is void in itself.
"First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."
The Arabian Peninsula is not "the holiest of places." Outside the sacred precincts at Makka and Madina, the peninsula is as profane as the rest of the planet save Jerusalem, which is the first and also the third of the holiest of places. The language is void in itself, and the statement that "the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places" is flatly false, there is no evidence whatever that the United States has admission to, let alone occupation or control of, the holiest of places, not Makka nor Madina nor Jerusalem.
The sovereign may invite into the kingdom for which he is responsible any mercenary forces of his choosing for whatever purpose he intends with them. He may even invite the forces of a stronger sovereign and risk being subjugated, unless he holds a superior leash on the stronger sovereign. All of these pretenders' "facts" -- conclusions drawn from thin air and false speech -- fall flat before the testimony of the sovereign and the absence of any evidence of subjugation. The responsible sovereign of Saudi Arabia has explicitly refuted each of these conclusory contentions, and there is no evidence that any possess substance beyond the bald assertion of the pretenders.
The presence of American military personnel and material on the peninsula is entirely at the discretion of the responsible rulers. It creates no conflict with religious law, nor does it interfere with the legitimacy of the sovereign. This element of this so-called "fatwa" is void in its language.
Now I'll strike language that fails "3) It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude;" exculpating Saddam Hussein from his failure of the trust of sovereignty over his people, on both grounds that it is not free from individual opportunism and that it does depend on political servitude, specifically the servitude of Osama Bin Laden to Saddam Hussein occasioned by Saddam's support.
"Second ... So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors."
Language without factual support, another pretense of rhetoric. What others "will do" is unknown to these pretenders. This element of this so-called "fatwa" is void in its language.
"Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there."
There is no "if" in a fatwa. It is a statement of the Law with regard to established and articulated facts, there are no "if" or other speculative terms. This element of this so-called "fatwa" is void in its language.
"All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims."
Now these pretenders attribute to "the Americans" the crimes they charge to "Jews and Crusaders," naming two combatant forces and purporting to indict a people distant and unknown to their contentions. The language is again false on its face, this element of this so-called "fatwa" is void in its language.
The pretenders then purport to sanction violation of God's Law applicable to all muslims, reciting a list of offenses against ALLAH and His Prophet sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam to which they purport to command the faithful. May ALLAH have mercy on those who imagine themselves to have allegiance to these pretenders, it is void.
"We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it."
They have not God's help with this call, it is denied by the authority of the shari'ah as articulated above. God has issued no such order "to kill the Americans and plunder their money," this is a call of pretenders and brigands to brigandage. Any obedience to this claim of allegiance invokes the shari'ah law of brigandage, and where blood is shed the malefactor muslims, on proper evidence of material facts and judicial verdict, are to be crucified, tied and bound erect, cutting off alternate hands and feet, and left to die. This is binding on all with explicit oath of allegiance pursuant to shari'ah.
I find no evidence of sufficient probity to determine Osama Bin Laden a signatory to this pretense and outlawry. May ALLAH have mercy on whoever did not in fact sign it, those who did commit an enormity in pretense of Islam.
=======
I think that answers your question.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
54 Posted on 09/24/2001 06:21:19 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
It seems that if you use the words 'they' and 'them' enough you can generalise any group into anti-americans. And it doesn't mean that you're making one iota of sense, either.
55 Posted on 09/24/2001 06:23:51 PDT by Kaj
"...and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it."
And do what with it? Spend it on booze and broads, I guess. Going strictly by the evidence.
56 Posted on 09/24/2001 06:31:50 PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
I am keenly interested in what students of the Koran have to say about Bin Ladin's
Fatwa.
Here is my take on the sura from the Quran.
1) When interpreting the Quran, one must take into account the concept of "abrogation."
Some suras of the Quran have been abrogated by earlier suras. The so-called
moderate Muslim leaders in America and elsewhere highlight the suras of the
Quran that tell Muslims to live in peace with unbelievers. These are the suras
"revealed" to Mohammed in Mecca. The Meccans rejected the prophet hood
of Mohammed. He fled to Medina. In Medina he received "revelations"
which are the suras that tell Muslims to kill the unbelievers. The later suras
revealed in Medina have abrogated those in Mecca when there is a contradiction.
Or another way of looking at it (for these particular suras) is that when
Muslims are a minority (like in Mecca) they are to live in peace with the
unbelievers. But when they are a majority and can defeat the unbelievers (like
in Medina) then they should fight against them. Mohammed later led his followers
back to Mecca and thus began the Muslim conquest by the sword.
2) The verse from sura 9 which is quoted in the fatwa says, "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war". On of the important concepts in jihad is to surprise your enemy, trick them, confound them. These guys who flew these planes executed an excellent jihad according to this concept. (There is an Arabic word for this, but I cannot remember it right now.) This sura says "lie in wait for them". Note these two items:
a) Fox news reported directly from the hotel room where two or three of these guys stayed. The owner of the hotel says that when law enforcement when into the room, a painting was covered up by these guys. It was a painting of a woman wearing a dress. One shoulder of the dress was fallen down her arm revealing her shoulder. The dress also was above her knees. These guys did not want to look at this painting in the privacy of their hotel room where they said their Islamic prayers and planned the attack.
b) It is also reported that these same guys would stand outside the room of the hotel and check out all the girls on the beach. In other reports we have heard how some of them went to strip clubs and bars. Others blended into the community as good family men.
These guys were in fact confounding their enemy. They appeared on the outside to be normal guys, or in some cases just very secular, unreligious people. But in the privacy of their own homes they were Muslims who read the Quran and prayed toward Mecca. They attended mosques for their prayers. They were Muslims who were waging an effective jihad by stealth and surprise. They were laying in wait for the right time to attack. The "sins" of drinking and going to strip clubs are forgiven because it is part of the "stratagem of war". The guys were, in effect, Muslims wearing ghillie suits, blending into the normal landscape of American society and never appearing suspicious to their enemy.
57 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:03:16 PDT by JeepInMazar
Post # 57 for you.
58 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:13:05 PDT by JeepInMazar
Like I said, I have no doubt the Koran can be interpreted that way. I have no doubt the Bible can be either. Doesn't mean its the interpretation of most muslims.
59 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:14:35 PDT by Kaj
Ok. Not all Muslims look at the Quran the same way. Those who are moderates in America have a duty at this time to speak clealy about these issues. Here is the challange for all moderate Muslim leaders in America: Center of Peace and Hope in Christ for Afghanistan issues challenge to moderate Muslims.
However, my post points out the fact that these guys were Muslims and waging a jihad according to what the Quran says. It is incorrect to say that these guys were not Muslims. Other Muslims may not like the idea that these guys are Muslims, but it is wrong to say they are not Muslims. It's like protestants saying the Pope is not Christian or the Pope saying Billy Graham is not Christian, etc.
What moderate Muslims wish was true about their religion doesn't make it true.
60 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:26:05 PDT by JeepInMazar
Good post. And a question I have repeated again and again, with no answer -
If a death fatwa can be pronounced against a novelist, why not against a terrorist - specifically Oscuma bint Larden?
A comment suggested that only the head of a nation/state can issue a fatwa...but on this very board, we learned that Oscuma was commander in chief of armed forces of Afghanistan!
Be that as it may, is there no moslem cleric anywhere, even in the US that will pronounce a death fatwa against Oscuma? And if there isn't, what conclusions are we to draw?
61 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:29:26 PDT by neutrino (Neutrino)
No, but what radical muslims say about islam doesn't make it true either. I think moderate muslims have spoken out, a great deal considering the unjustified backlash they're facing. It's difficult for these guys to speak out when people who don't want to listen are issuing death threats and occasionally carrying them out. But they are attempting to do so, and everyone who's anyone (witness Bush) is supportive and affirming their message.
62 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:30:07 PDT by Kaj
Like I said, I have no doubt the Koran can be interpreted that way. I have no doubt the Bible can be either.
Yes. But can you please tell me the names of people and organizations who interpret the Bible in "that way". Those who attend church and who quote Bible verses about war and who are actually committing acts of violence? What are these organizations who do this? What churches do their followers go to? Who are the leaders of these movements and can you describe the theology that they ascribe to based on what they say about the Bible? What are the specific acts of violence they are committing?
63 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:31:54 PDT by JeepInMazar
Well, start with the Crusades, progress through to the Spanish Inquisition, notice the Holocaust and continue through to some fundamentalist Christians around today.
Try this one:
http://pub88.ezboard.com/fhighdesertmilitiasdiscussionforumsfrm13.showMessage?topicID=21.topic
64 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:39:00 PDT by Kaj
a. It seems that if you use the words 'they' and 'them' enough you can generalise any group into anti-americans.
b. And it doesn't mean that you're
making one iota of sense, either.
a. No, merely much use of pronouns won't generalize anyone into being anti-American or anything else. It's what "they" actually say that will specifically identify "them" as anti-American.
b. It does if you read in the context provided. Of course, your 'it' is lacking a referent. The point, though, is that although there are plenty of Muslims who don't hew to bin Laden's fatwa against Americans, it doesn't make sense to talk about "true" Islam not condoning bin Laden's actions as though that has any protective effect against those actions. Regardless of whatever "true" Islam teaches, the fact is that there indeed exists a group of people who consider themselves to be representatives of the true Islam who are calling for the murder of Americans as a sign of highest religious duty. This is of greater practical importance than those who consider Islam to be teaching no such thing. From those there is nothing to worry about. Although it's important to be able to distinguish between Muslims who follow bin Laden's fatwa from those who don't, the fact that some do not doesn't make the problem posed by those who do go away.
65 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:46:54 PDT by aruanan
Thanks. So, "true" Islam is whatever gets the job done, ie., conquering the non-Muslim world; the praxis is variable, depending on the situation. Sounds a lot like another totalist faith practiced in Russia, China, and elsewhere.
66 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:51:33 PDT by aruanan
I look forward to your shredding this Fatwa, and will gladly pass along your refutations to all comers.
It is my sincerest belief that American moslem arabs will be our greatest asset in the war against terrorism.
The problem I see though is that apparantly millions of arab moslems DO see Osama as their leader, and WILL act on his false and blasphemous Fatwa. That's why Koranic refutations are so critical.
67 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:56:32 PDT by Travis McGee
I just checked the link you gave. Just a quick glance at the posts show that people are talking about spriritual warfare, not physical acts of violence to promote their religion. Maybe you had a specific post in mind?
Well, start with the Crusades, progress through to the Spanish Inquisition, notice the Holocaust and continue through to some fundamentalist Christians around today.
What Christian fundamentalists are telling their followers to wage a war and commit acts of violence againt their enemies? What organizations are they?
And the holocaust...what is your point? Did Adolph Hitler teach the Bible? Did he use the Bible as his basis to kill Jews? What verses of the Bible did he use to teach this?
68 Posted on 09/24/2001 07:57:34 PDT by JeepInMazar
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war",[Surya 9-5]
Every Moslem knows that "Pagans" in the Koran specifically does not refer to Christian or Jews, who are described as "People of the Book" who also worship Allah.
Pagan refer to the pre-Islamic natives of Arabia who were not familiar with Allah (God).
This Fatwa was obviously written in behalf of the Iraqi regime, in an effort to revenge their Desert Storm defeat. Saddam Hussein is the mastermind who must be punished.
69 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:04:03 PDT by imperator2
The Koran can be interpreted in a fundamental way, justifying violence. So can the Bible.
Perhaps so, but only Moslems are being urged by Mullahs in Mosques to become holy martyrs (shaheeds) by blowing themselves up with as many Israelis or Americans as possible. Don't bother denying it, I have seen and heard the "sermons" preaching "martyrdom" and recruiting shaheeds. If you can show me a parallel TODAY in Christianity or Judeaism, I'd be happy to hear about it.
Yet modern Islam, like modern Christianity, has rejected such an interpretation of their holy books...
Is that so? Can you point out the MAJOR Moslem clerics who have condemned the Osama Fatwa as blasphemous of Allah and the Koran? Millions of Moslems today see Osama as their leader, so presumably they respect his Fatwa. Where are the MAJOR Moslem clerics condemning Osama and his blasphemous Fatwa? Please name them, and what they have said to all Moslems.
70 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:05:41 PDT by Travis McGee
"Who cares whether "true" Islam teaches this or that? That's irrelevant when there are lots of people trying to kill you for what they think is true Islam. Those folks aren't going to care what you say about the 'true meaning' of their religion, because they've already decided that its true meaning is that you should die."
Exactly!
71 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:08:32 PDT by Travis McGee
Sounds like Osama and Saddam might have a few mutual interests. Saddam was in on this . . .
More than you may think:
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BOMB:
Who is Ramzi Yousef? And Why It Matters
"Few Americans are aware of the true scale of the destructive ambition behind [the WTC 1993] bomb, this despite the fact that two years later, the key figure responsible for building it--a man who had entered the United Stares on an Iraqi passport under the name of Ramzi Yousef--was involved in another stupendous bombing conspiracy. In January 1995, Yousef and his associates plotted to blow up eleven U.S. commercial aircraft in one spectacular day of terrorist rage. The bombs were to be made of a liquid explosive designed to pass through airport metal detectors. But while mixing his chemical brew in a Manila apartment, Yousef started a fire.
[snip]
"But what if Ramzi Yousef, who eluded the grasp of U.S. authorities until after his second bombing conspiracy, is neither a follower of Sheikh Omar nor a Muslim fundamentalist? That if he is an Iraqi agent?
Stratfor
U.S. May Be Refocusing on Iraq
2000 GMT, 010920
"The Israelis argued from the beginning that Iraq was deeply involved in last week's attacks, but their claims were a bit suspect because of their interest. They badly want Iraqi President Saddam Hussein crushed and his weapons of mass destruction -- existing or potential -- obliterated. They also do not want to see the United States enter into a dependent relationship with Pakistan. With all these factors in mind, Israel's claims of Iraqi culpability were given second place to Afghanistan.
"Clearly U.S. intelligence is now taking a second, and quite public, look at Iraq. There is no question that Hussein is interested in any militant movement that would be prepared to strike at the United States. It is therefore possible that to the extent the attackers required state support, hardly valuable coming from Afghanistan, they would turn to Iraq.
DEBKA-Net-Weekly
WorldNetDaily
Terrorists had top-secret presidential codes
"Air Force One is next," read the message received by the U.S. Secret Service at 9 a.m. Sept. 11, after two hijacked planes struck the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York.
Three minutes later, Secret Service agents grabbed Vice President Dick Cheney from his seat opposite a television set in the White House and hustled him down to the president's emergency operations center, a bunker built to withstand a nuclear blast.
The terrorists' message threatening Air Force One was transmitted in that day's top-secret White House code words. As the clock ticked away, the Secret Service reached a frightening conclusion: The terrorists had obtained the White House code and a whole set of top-secret signals.
72 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:15:47 PDT by angkor
This same type of Fatwah was used by the Mahdi to attack the British in North Africa in the Nineteenth Century. i am not familiar enough with Islamic texts to be specific about the Mahdi prophecies that seem to reccur throughout many of them. Suffice to say there may well be some who believe that OBL fits this description.
We expect rationality from those we have allied with in the past and we may get this or at least the seem to get that even though within their minds is the lagging doubt about maybe OBL really is a messamger of God.
I tend to think that this belief will grow within the Muslim faithful. I hope I am wrong.
I further think that the cells within the USA are hunkered down waiting for another strike when security relaxes a little bit more and it will.
Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown
73 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:36:14 PDT by harpseal
BUMP for later reading of this thread. I too would like to see a serious scholarly discussion of this guy's Islamic justifications for his actions.
74 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:38:38 PDT by TKEman
Right, at this time the remaining terror cells are digging deep, waiting to see who the FBI has captured, and who the FBI has turned.
If the terrorists opsec was a crappy as it seems to have been, there is a good chance that more than 80-90% of the active terrorists will be rounded up.
The other 10-20% will be lurking until the smoke clears though.
75 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:44:49 PDT by Travis McGee
Bumpmark.
76 Posted on 09/24/2001 08:58:57 PDT by My back yard
They have not God's help with this call, it is denied by the authority of the shari'ah as articulated above. God has issued no such order "to kill the Americans and plunder their money," this is a call of pretenders and brigands to brigandage. Sadly, hundreds of thousands (at least) of Moslems on the streets of Cairo, Karachi etc do not agree with you, because they are holding up large pictures of Osama, and repeating his Fatwa.
Any obedience to this claim of allegiance invokes the shari'ah law of brigandage, and where blood is shed the malefactor muslims, on proper evidence of material facts and judicial verdict, are to be crucified, tied and bound erect, cutting off alternate hands and feet, and left to die. This is binding on all with explicit oath of allegiance pursuant to shari'ah. Okay, then, let's see it happen to the author of this false and blasphemous Fatwa.
I find no evidence of sufficient probity to determine Osama Bin Laden a signatory to this pretense and outlawry. If this has been released by Osama in his name, and it is on cassettes and videos and radical Moslem websites world wide, does that not convince you at all that Osama is the author?
77 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:23:45 PDT by Travis McGee
bttt
78 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:24:31 PDT by Travis McGee
Every Moslem knows that "Pagans" in the Koran specifically does not refer to Christian or Jews,
Apparently not "every Moslem." Bin Laden and his henchment clearly reject such an interpretation. And judging from the groundswell of cheers and applause emanating from ordinary Muslims throughout the Middle East, not even many Muslims "know" or believe that.
No, it would appear that only a minority of Muslims rejects the interpretation that bin Laden gives the Koran on this point. I welcome them as allies and encourage all such Muslims living in America to help us root out the terrorists, to wholly deny them aid and sanctuary.
79 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:37:11 PDT by Kevin Curry
I should have said "Every intelligent Moslem", which is only about 15% of the total Moslem population.
80 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:49:20 PDT by imperator2
(From a thread just posted)
"A Muslim journalist interviewed Osama bin Laden for Newsweek, Jan. 11, 1999:
Question: Why have you asked Muslims to target civilian Americans all over the world? Islam prohibits its followers from killing civilians in war.
Bin Laden: If the Israelis are killing small children in Palestine and the Americans are killing innocent people in Iraq, and if the majority of the American people support their dissolute president, this means the American people are fighting us and we have the right to target them.
Question: All Americans?
Bin Laden: Muslim scholars have issued a fatwa (a religious order) against any American who pays taxes to his government. He is our target, because he is helping the American war machine against the Muslim nation.
This commentary appeared on ABCNEWS.com, Jan. 1999 (on Osama bin Laden):
"His fatwa was clear: Americans must die, within the next few weeks. U.S. troops will leave Saudi Arabia when Islamic terrorists "send the bodies of American troops and civilians home in wooden boxes and coffins," Osama Bin Ladin vowed in an exclusive interview with ABC NEWS Correspondent John Miller. "We don't differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians. They are all targets in this fatwa."
Bin Ladin recently convened a meeting of fundamentalist extremists and sponsors of terrorism. More than 150 clerics named themselves the "International Islamic Front for the Jihad against Jews and Crusaders," and issued a variety of fatwas."
Do you now accept that the False Fatwa was in fact proclaimed by Osama Bin Ladin?
81 Posted on 09/24/2001 09:49:37 PDT by Travis McGee
I guess even the Islamic devil can cite scripture.
82 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:00:03 PDT by VRWC_minion
Every Moslem knows that "Pagans" in the Koran specifically does not refer to Christian or Jews, who are described as "People of the Book" who also worship Allah.
See my post #57. Also note: Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. Sura 9:26
83 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:30:35 PDT by JeepInMazar
Your estimate presumes 80% to 90% are involved with the cells that did this. At this point we, as a nation, must presume that all who were involved in the initial attack were already on the board as sacrifices. It is the ones who were not kept in contact and in the loop on this op that are the ones we should be concerned about. their op sec was good enough to pull off a strike that probably succeeded beyond the uper echelon's wildest dreams.
We shall see what happens.
Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown
84 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:34:40 PDT by harpseal
The People of the Book (Christians and Jews) are tolerated as long as they pay their special taxes, and are "subdued" by the Moslems.
85 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:35:29 PDT by imperator2
There are some interesting things posted at www.ironpants.com -- Why Do They Hate America? The USA saved Europe from the Nazis, defeated communism and keeps the West rich. Why has it become the land of the loathed?
http://www.ironpants.com/discus/messages/8/11218.html?MondaySeptember2420011023am
86 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:38:54 PDT by My back yard
I further think that the cells within the USA are hunkered down waiting for another strike when security relaxes a little bit more and it will.
See post 57.
87 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:39:00 PDT by JeepInMazar
The People of the Book (Christians and Jews) are tolerated as long as they pay their special taxes, and are "subdued" by the Moslems.
Yes. Otherwise they should be killed.
88 Posted on 09/24/2001 10:55:04 PDT by JeepInMazar
effective camoflage is blending into one's surroundings. I would not be surprised to find out about some cell member "proudly" flying the flag but then later engaging in terrorist action.
Are you familiar with the mahdi traddition that I have heard some about in the past? Could you enlighten us?
Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown
89 Posted on 09/24/2001 11:10:10 PDT by harpseal
Are you familiar with the mahdi traddition that I have heard some about in the past?
No I am not.
I do know, however, that there is a Shiite tradition which allows them to say that they are not Shiites when they are in non-Shiite areas. So when among Sunni Muslims, a Shiite is allowed to curse the Shiites and say the prayers in the manner a Sunni says prayers, for example. This tradition was developed, if I understand it correctly, mainly as a self-defense technique. It seems to be different than jihad, but the concept of concealment is the same.
What about the Mahdi? Is this the group in Iran? I don't know that much about them. Don't they say Mahdi is the one to come in the future?
90 Posted on 09/24/2001 11:21:41 PDT by JeepInMazar
Re: The Mahdi.
As I understand it there is a Muslim prophecy that states there will come in the future one who shall unite all the faithful and cause the whole world to become Muslim. some interpretations I have heard of this traditions state that this will be after the mahdii leads all the faithful to victory in a holy war. Although I have read a translation of the Koran it has been many years. i do know that the dessert leader that inspired the warfare against the British in The Sudan took the name Mahdi for himself. Omdurman proved him to be false.
Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown
91 Posted on 09/24/2001 11:39:47 PDT by harpseal
What Christian fundamentalists are telling their followers to wage a war and commit acts of violence againt their enemies? What organizations are they?
What about violence committed against homosexuals in the name of, for example, Leviticus 18:22? Or abortion clinic bombings by "Christians" such as Eric Rudolph or James Kopp?
92 Posted on 09/24/2001 12:08:24 PDT by koltes2
What about violence committed against homosexuals in the name of, for example, Leviticus 18:22?
Who has done this? Names? Organizations? Bible teachers? Bible college students? What churches do they attend?
Or abortion clinic bombings by "Christians" such as Eric Rudolph or James Kopp?
What church did Eric Rudolph and James Kopp go to? What Bible verses did they quote to justify their actions? Who are they organized with? Who are these groups?
With the terrorists who are Muslims we see they attend mosques, study the Quran, quote the Quran and Hadith, are associated with Islamic groups, etc.
93 Posted on 09/24/2001 12:14:22 PDT by JeepInMazar
bttt
94 Posted on 09/24/2001 12:51:39 PDT by Travis McGee
I appreciate the flags. My freep time is limited with the amount of work I'm doing lately, and the gems you seem to find save me a lot of time searching for the the "good stuff".
That's what I've been wondering - where are all of the American Muslim clerics comdemning OBL? The only one who has spoken out against the attack is Farrakhan, and I don't think he was totally sincere.
95 Posted on 09/24/2001 13:55:08 PDT by pocat
I'm glad to flag you.
96 Posted on 09/24/2001 15:17:31 PDT by Travis McGee
Do I accept that? I don't think I ever denied it.
97 Posted on 09/24/2001 18:57:56 PDT by Kaj
The point, though, is that although there are plenty of Muslims who don't hew to bin Laden's fatwa against Americans, it doesn't make sense to talk about "true" Islam not condoning bin Laden's actions as though that has any protective effect against those actions.
I agree. But demonization of muslims has no protective effect either, it has been going on constantly in America for a long time and has taken a quantum leap with the attack of the liars on the Towers on Tuesday 9/11. It hasn't worked in the past, it won't work now. We are not the problem.
Regardless of whatever "true" Islam teaches, the fact is that there indeed exists a group of people who consider themselves to be representatives of the true Islam who are calling for the murder of Americans as a sign of highest religious duty. This is of greater practical importance than those who consider Islam to be teaching no such thing. From those there is nothing to worry about. Although it's important to be able to distinguish between Muslims who follow bin Laden's fatwa from those who don't, the fact that some do not doesn't make the problem posed by those who do go away.
Although the picture is obscured and far from defined, Osama appears to be emerging in the millennial muslim world as a champion of fundamentalism. Muslims in the millennial world expect something like this the same way the Jews expect the Messiah and Christians expect the return of Jesus. Muslims also expect Jesus back any time now, but the followers of the Arabs and Persians are waiting more for "Imam Mahdi" who the Arabs say will be an Arab, just as the Jews say the Messiah will be a Jew and Christians say Jesus will return as their all-powerful all-conquering champion.
God says something different at Genesis 9:27, and in the Qur'an.
But this is not a new thing, this confusion of tongues and distortion of Books and contention over the Kingdom of God. Nothing "new" is being alleged and accused except where reference is to specific individuals or current events like Bin Laden and the Tuesday Terror. All these posts from the anti-Islam brigades are an old story, check the Usenet newsgroup alt.religion.islam and you will see constant propaganda warfare.
Please notice the information overload barrage. All of the Threads at Free Republic where I've been posting have drawn overkill attackers propagandizing against one fifth of the human race. This is not an accident, it is a plan. The brigades started immediately on Tuesday, September 11, in earnest, to prevent the articulation of Islam where Americans can find it.
See my Guide to Events for a short read on what we're all seeing -- a cacophony that has distinct patterns that we all can recognize and understand, the Guide to Events is not any kind of theological wrangling or sectarian advocacy, you'll see that clearly.
And then see who is saying "Let's you and him fight" and you figure out whether we're looking at what the Hidden Arm of the Lord has been awaiting since the time of Noah.
I don't see the Signs yet. I see plenty, an immense assault in the information media and plenty of movement on the ground, and Bin Laden may for all I know be a scion of the Quraysh tribe from whom the Arabs insist The Mahdi must come. The False Messiah is not manifest from here, I don't see him and don't want to. God, I don't want to.
But I see other things that really make me think. You'll see them in my other Threads, I don't know where I'll post next because the hounds of hell are following me around like gang-busters as I expected they would. You'll see it in all my Threads.
Have fun keeping up -- I certainly am. I'm blocking off worm attacks and changing my connection IP address to stay on the Web. That's what I've been working to make sure I could do for the two years I've been absent from Free Republic. First the Red Worm stole a hundred thousand Windows 2000 Microsoft Internet Information Services web server machines, then the Nimda worm mounted every known attack against Windows 9x, ME, 2K and NT machines running Outlook Express, and today we have a new one: Win32.Vote.A is worm that erases files in the Windows and other directories and overwrites HTM and HTML files, spreading via the Internet by email using MAPI and Microsoft Outlook.
So I hope Jim has his defenses in place, Free Republic will come under DDoS attack before it's over, there are too many responsible, intelligent, religious Americans here. That's the last thing the terrorist liars want, is for responsible, intelligent, religious Americans to see what they're doing and have done. But you all can see it anyway, it's right in front of your eyes. Someone is trying to destroy America, muslims first. Their plan is to use America as a self-destructing weapon and they've set it up for a long, long time.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
98 Posted on 09/24/2001 21:05:55 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Okay, then if OBL issued it, and millions of radical Wahhabist Moslems believe it, what do we do about it?
Taking into account that there will be more attempts at 9-11 level terrorist actions, you must see that if this occurs, many, many recently arrived Moslems in the USA will be deported or interned. To forestall this, moderate Moslems need to open up a wide and visible separation between themselves and the Wahhabosts.
But then there is the problem that these Wahhabists are operating covertly within the USA. I don't see a solution, do you?
99 Posted on 09/25/2001 00:05:02 PDT by Travis McGee
I honestly respect your honesty. Good luck to you, all earnest Moslems, and the USA.
100 Posted on 09/25/2001 00:10:20 PDT by Travis McGee
I honestly respect your honesty. Good luck to you, all earnest Moslems, and the USA.
I have not disagreed with much of what I have seen from you. I'm being pursued through these Threads by the hounds of hell, and I'm writing to each of the Threads as I get the time, the list is below my sig and I will include it below my sig once, at least, whenever I add a new Thread to the list. I don't know which Thread might see a new list or when.
I'm covering a lot of territory, from Noah to now. It looks to me like that's the scope of these on-going events. I'm waiting to see, there is not enough evidence for me to be sure of what we're watching happen, whether it is what it looks like, because there are parties that have tampered with expectations and they now are playing into those false expectations.
For example, with air travel grounded, the spread of an Ebola outbreak is much less threatening, it may be containable. But it's certainly not Biblical, it's terrorists who have prepared the ground for false expectations. People who write religions of their own design and then accuse everyone else of forgery. They're behind the terror war to destroy America.
You appear to prefer to draw your own insights. You may find it helpful to set preconceptions aside and let insights draw themselves before your eyes.
North and South America, for example, were set adrift to separate from the larger land mass of the east and become the cut-off lands, the lost continent that "went away" from those who remained in -- say -- the Holy Land. Here, seen from there, and there, seen from here, are considerably different from what we, here, experience and from what they, there, experience. All of the views have validity that may be peculiar to the place from where each is seen.
It's most effectively seen from several directions at once. That's possible. Rejecting a view because it's not from "here" provides no insight into what is happening "there."
It all fits together. Perfectly. When it seems not to, we're missing something.
The number of muslims in America has increased substantially since Tuesday's Terror. They obviously didn't fly in from anywhere.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War" on America
A Moment for Truth
101 Posted on 09/25/2001 02:18:22 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
I think human intelligence is the solution. If 9-11 doesn't kill Bush's cockamaymee National Missile Defense I don't know what will. The billions saved should go into the most effective form of intelligence gathering there is - on the ground intelligence.
102 Posted on 09/25/2001 02:22:28 PDT by Kaj
But demonization of muslims has no protective effect either, it has been going on constantly in America for a long time and has taken a
quantum leap with the attack of the liars on the Towers on Tuesday 9/11. It hasn't worked in the past, it won't work now. We are not the problem.
Well, of course. "we" being all those Muslims who haven't, over the centuries, been militarily xenophobic. And that's one reason my church has been standing watch outside a neighborhood mosque to show the necessity of making distinctions. That said, it's also incumbent on those Muslims unambiguously to make themselves known and take their place of danger with everyone else in their stand against the Usamas of the world.
103 Posted on 09/25/2001 04:34:21 PDT by aruanan
I think human intelligence is the solution. That is a large part of the solution, but no panacea. We cannot just train agents capable of entering key Madrassas for the years and years long road to the terrorist inner circles. That is not realistic.
If 9-11 doesn't kill Bush's cockamaymee National Missile Defense I don't know what will. Why do you think that if Moslem fanatics come to power in a nation and "inherit" missiles and nuclear weapons they will not use them? M.A.D. will not work against insane death cultist Wahhabists who are eager to kill and be killed, the more the better, to advance their twisted vision.
The billions saved should go into the most effective form of intelligence gathering there is - on the ground intelligence.That should be done regardless, independent of NMD. The problem is not monetary, it is cultural and ethical. Putting spies among insane murderers means that we will have to approve of the actions of our spies earning trust by committing the murder of innocents. That is a big hurdle which lots of money cannot overcome.
104 Posted on 09/25/2001 10:24:13 PDT by Travis McGee
Travis, fundamentalist groups aren't going to 'inherit' missiles capable of reaching the US unless you seriously believe the Chechyans are marching to Moscow. Quite simply no nation in the region has anything close to the technology.
105 Posted on 09/25/2001 12:32:18 PDT by Kaj
Tell the Europeans not to worry about Pakistani nuclear tipped missiles in the hands of Wahhabist fanatics.
106 Posted on 09/25/2001 12:40:35 PDT by Travis McGee
They tolearted it as long as a tax was paid to them. This was true of many Sunni leaders but not of the shiites. to them even the "people of the book" are infidels.
107 Posted on 09/25/2001 12:41:53 PDT by The Southern Right Winger
Do you now accept that the False Fatwa was in fact proclaimed by Osama Bin Ladin?
I had not not accepted that.
I had seen references to this so-called "fatwa" for a while, and had assumed that, as reported, it was from him. But as with all "information" in our media regarding Bin Laden and the Taliban, I considered these reports unreliable by virtue of distortion and/or exaggeration if not outright fabrication -- which has been the consistent characteristic of all such reports -- but it did not occur to me that Bin Laden might not be the -- or an -- author of the so-called "fatwa."
Until I read it.
Reading it, I find two possibilities: everything we've been told, about Osama Bin Laden being a fundamentalist muslim with at least some background in scholarship and jurisprudence, is completely incorrect and he should return to herding sheep because his knowledge of Islam and our juriprudence is nonexistent; or else he didn't write it.
So judicially, I shredded the so-called "fatwa." But while I had always *assumed* Bin Laden was behind it, I could not "find" that judicially, particularly with this obvious contradiction: an allegedly fundamentalist, schooled Saudi muslim, associated with the garbage rhetoric masqueraded as a "fatwa." For the pronouncement of a judicial edict, I lacked sufficient probative evidence to attribute that nonsense to Bin Laden with finality.
Since then, Mullah Muhammad 'Umar -- who appears to have made an unnecessary and overly populist public statement -- has been required by the 'ulema of Afghanistan to ask his father-in-law (Bin Laden) to leave. That is very telling. And more material has come to me regarding Bin Laden. Although I regard most of it in the same category with the Globe's report that Bin Laden has underdeveloped genitalia (and that's why he hates America), I am not concluding that previous reports, that he is something of a scholar, are accurate.
My sole concern was the so-called "fatwa" and the danger that muslims without knowledge would regard it as authoritative. I am not, thank God, responsible for making any determination about Bin Laden. Since the New York Times is now reporting that we -- our FBI and investigative organs -- have not found *any* links from the Tuesday Terror attack to Bin Laden, I certainly do not envy the poor decision-maker who has to sort through the demonization hype and disinformation to reach what, if anything, to "do" about Bin Laden.
See the New York Times article for that information -- or lack of it. I can't immediately locate the report that one person "of interest" (who was cleared) was believed associated with Bin Laden solely because he had been photographed once at a gathering of muslims somewhere, but that is the quality of the "evidence" being offered. Another "Bin Laden operative" was so designated because he had been in Afghanistan during a certain three-year period. This is not tremendously persuasive.
In short, we have been sold a bill of goods. Looking at close-up photographs of Bin Laden and biographies and other materials on his history, I am somewhat underwhelmed. I have never been an advocate of either Bin Laden or the Taliban, I have merely reserved forming a view without good and probative evidence. But the more I see, the more mysterious it becomes to me that Bin Laden is so popular among muslims of the terminally-collapsed millennial muslim world.
Probably I shouldn't be surprised. I have yet to be impressed with the religious insight of very many muslims from that part of the world. Most of the muslims I have met from there have been good-hearted folks, hospitable and generous and peaceable -- perhaps too peaceable and complaisant for our contentious styles of social interaction in America -- but not tremendously knowledgeable about the law, how it has been corrupted and distorted by empire and history, and the fundamental errors in perspective that underlie populist doctrines that produce the problems we see.
Perhaps what troubles me most about them is the Islamic tenet that "people have the rulers they deserve." This does not inspire in me much in the way of desire to take my religion from them. That's why I've sought out the sages and sat at their feet, and cracked the Books so intensively. The muslims of the millennial muslim world, like the following generations of other religions, have been deprived by their leaders of the faith. It's not an unusual condition, for them it's incredibly oppressive. But there they are, under the heels of tyrants, and that is a probative fact.
Is that Bin Laden's signature on the so-called "fatwa"? Probably. It hardly matters. It would not surprise me that he might sign such a distortion of religious law. Not much from the millennial muslim world surprises me any more.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
108 Posted on 09/25/2001 22:20:09 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."
Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."
Bin Laden: You do realize that your argument is illogical, right? God wants you and your followers to do His killing for Him??? It is always right to defend yourself, even against God. God can kill whomever He chooses to kill, whenever He chooses to kill. He doesn't need you. And if He does need you, then He isn't God. Not that'd I'd expect you'd be reading this, but if per chance you are, you really need to reconsider the amount of reasoning you've put into your argument.
However, that said, IF you truly are behind all this mess that went down, then you can shove your reasoning, because I will kill you if I ever get the chance. I couldn't care less about the Pentagon, the towers, or the land, relatively speaking. Such things are merely buildings and dirt. What I do care about, though, is when innocent people are killed and children are without parents. Bin Laden, if that's your God telling you to do these things (IF you were really behind this mess), then I can tell you point blank that I hate your God, and I will stab you and your God from the heart of Hell.
109 Posted on 09/25/2001 22:51:14 PDT by alien2
Thanks for your time and thoughts, you have given me a lot to chew on.
110 Posted on 09/25/2001 23:09:46 PDT by Travis McGee
Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."
You do realize, of course, that those words are also directed to you? Read them again as if Someone were speaking to you -- what you said in your post already shows that you understand what they say.
If we're not "going forth" to eradicate the inhuman evil behind the terror war, to stop it and prevent further destruction of innocents, to do the right thing, then what are we doing? And since we're trying to do the right thing, why are we being so knee-jerk reactionary and careless about doing it right?
America is under unprovoked, deliberate, deadly attack, and the attackers fully intend to destroy us. The attack is not new, it is not related to our demented policies in the Middle East, it has nothing to do with our prosperity or our support for corrupt dictatorships. The Tuesday attack was completely, utterly foul, a betrayal of America's friendship, a violation of everything dear to anyone who believes in God. No one, two, or a hundred things America did or failed to do had anything to do with it. Nothing we could have done, nothing we could have not done, would have avoided it. It was as cold-blooded as a decision to pour sour milk down the drain -- in the minds of those behind the terror war it is simply that America's time is "up."
We abide in the tents of Shem -- all of us Jews, Christians, muslims, irreligious and atheist alike -- in America. Here are the freedoms of religious belief and practice -- freedom of and freedom from religion -- that threaten those behind the terror war. We do not believe that anyone has a claim from God to sit in judgment on everyone else. American Jews do not follow the orders of Tel Aviv, American Catholics do not accept the authority of Rome, American muslims do not swear allegiance to any of the Arabs or their followers, and Americans do not concern ourselves with the religious nut next door -- who, according to some educated minds, irrationally believes in "God" or some such fantasy -- unless and until he makes a problem out of it that endangers others or harms them. That's American law and in a situation that appears unique in the world, Americans basically respect the law.
Here is a nation founded in the tents of Shem, and largely the people of this nation remain in the houses of Christianity, whether they agree with the particular theological doctrines of their denominations or not. And Jewish Americans of all three great wings of American Judaism remain likewise and do not, in their hearts, support the ill conduct of their co-religionists or those who claim to be. And muslim Americans find America the most hospitable place in the world to pursue God's acceptance according to our best understanding, unhindered by "official" distortions imposed as tyranny.
But neither are Americans heartless to denounce someone without evidence of guilt, so that we cast them out of our communities or, as in days of old, stone them, these days with fire rained down from the heavens. Perhaps we all should be more vigilant to eject from our company those who disobey the Lord, however we might understand that, but we are a merciful people of a Merciful God and grateful to Him for His Favor on us, all of us. Lax and improper vigilance has always been our common and most prominent failing.
Bin Laden: ... God can kill whomever He chooses to kill, whenever He chooses to kill. He doesn't need you. And if He does need you, then He isn't God. Not that'd I'd expect you'd be reading this, but if per chance you are, you really need to reconsider the amount of reasoning you've put into your argument.
He doesn't need us, either. But He tells us to "go forth, armed heavily or lightly," because that is what benefits us.
However, that said, IF you truly are behind all this mess that went down ... (IF you were really behind this mess), then I can tell you point blank that I hate your God, and I will stab you and your God from the heart of Hell.
There is no such god to hate, except as those behind the terror war consider God to be exclusively their own, and invent one.
Muslims didn't do this and aren't behind it, we're the first target of it. It is Islam in America -- utterly beyond the control of any party or doctrine from the terminally-collapsed millennial muslim world -- that threatens those behind this terror war, and the integrity and fundamental piety of the American people that threatens them even more.
But for those behind the terror -- their time is up. That is what God Almighty promised the American people before he made this the Lost Continent set adrift to await His Pleasure. We abide in the tents of Shem -- we don't burn them and neither will those who steal the American Heritage that the forefathers of this country knew and left us.
America is God's Country. Some of us have forgotten that. Those behind this terror war haven't forgotten that, they knew it all along. They don't care because they think God belongs to them. America is under attack because we disprove that simply by existing.
Americans know better than that. We don't believe in a God Who Opens His Mind and shows His Mercy only to a few of those who claim Him to the exclusion of all other people.
And neither do the muslims. There may be some seriously demented muslims -- like Bin Laden appears to be, although there are some organized parties far worse than Bin Laden's -- allied with those behind the terror war. But we need to keep looking, because the real perpetrators of the Tuesday Terror are somewhere else. All the leads have been followed by the FBI and by others around the world, and they lead nowhere -- they don't lead to Bin Laden through someone called an "operative" because he happened to have passed through Afghanistan once in 1994.
Who benefits? Look around and see who has said "This is a good thing for us." That wasn't the muslims or any of us.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War" on America
A Moment for Truth
111 Posted on 09/26/2001 12:53:36 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
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