Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
What Muslim would write: 'The time of fun and waste is gone'?
Robert Fisk
29 September 2001
Fearful, chilling, grotesque but also very, very odd. If the handwritten, five-page document which the FBI says it found in the baggage of Mohamed Atta, the suicide bomber from Egypt, is genuine, then the men who murdered more than 7,000 innocent people believed in a very exclusive version of Islam or were surprisingly unfamiliar with their religion.
"The time of Fun and waste is gone,'' Atta, or one of his associates, is reported to have written in the note. "Be optimistic ... Check all your items your bag, your clothes, your knives, your will, your IDs, your passport ... In the morning, try to pray the morning prayer with an open heart.''
Part theological, part mission statement, the document extracts from which were published in The Washington Post yesterday raises more questions than it answers.
Under the heading of "Last Night'' presumably the night of 10 September the writer tells his fellow hijackers to "remind yourself that in this night you will face many challenges. But you have to face them and understand it 100 per cent ... Obey God, his messenger, and don't fight among yourself [sic] where [sic] you become weak ... Everybody hates death, fears death ..."
The document begins with the words: "In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate ... In the name of God, of myself, and of my family.''
The problem is that no Muslim however ill-taught would include his family in such a prayer. Indeed, he would mention the Prophet Mohamed immediately after he mentioned God in the first line. Lebanese and Palestinian suicide bombers have never been known to refer to "the time of fun and waste'' because a true Muslim would not have "wasted'' his time and would regard pleasure as a reward of the after-life.
And what Muslim would urge his fellow believers to recite the morning prayer and then go on to quote from it? A devout Muslim would not need to be reminded of his duty to say the first of the five prayers of the day and would certainly not need to be reminded of the text. It is as if a Christian, urging his followers to recite the Lord's Prayer, felt it necessary to read the whole prayer in case they didn't remember it.
American scholars have already raised questions about the use of "100 per cent'' hardly a theological term to be found in a religious exhortation and the use of the word "optimistic'' with reference to the Prophet is a decidedly modern word.
However, the full and original Arabic text has not been released by the FBI. The translation, as it stands, suggests an almost Christian view of what the hijackers might have felt asking to be forgiven their sins, explaining that fear of death is natural, that "a believer is always plagued with problems''.
A Muslim is encouraged not to fear death it is, after all, the moment when he or she believes they will start a new life and a believer in the Islamic world is one who is certain of his path, not "plagued with problems''.
There are no references to any of Osama bin Laden's demands for an American withdrawal from the Gulf, an end to Israeli occupation, the overthrow of pro-American Arab regimes nor any narrative context for the atrocities about to be committed. If the men had an aspiration and if the document is above suspicion then they were sending their message direct to their God.
The prayer/instructions may have been distributed to other hijackers before the massacres occurred The Washington Post says the FBI found another copy of "essentially the same document'' in the wreckage of the plane which crashed in Pennsylvania. No text of this document has been released.
In the past, CIA translators have turned out to be Lebanese Maronite Christians whose understanding of Islam and its prayers may have led to serious textual errors. Could this be to blame for the weird references in the note found in Atta's baggage? Or is there something more mysterious about the background of those who committed a crime against humanity in New York and Washington, just over two weeks ago?
From the start, the hole in the story has been the reported behaviour of the hijackers. Atta was said to have been a near-alcoholic, while Ziad Jarrahi, the alleged Lebanese hijacker of the plane which crashed in Pennsylvania, had a Turkish girlfriend in Hamburg and enjoyed nightclubs and drinking. Is this why the published text refers to the "forgiveness'' of sin?
The final instruction, "to make sure that you are clean, your clothes are clean, including your shoes,'' may have been intended as a call to purify a "martyr" before death. Equally, it may reflect the thoughts of a truly eccentric and wicked mind.
The document found in Atta's baggage ends with a heading: "When you enter the plane". It then urges the hijackers to recite: "Oh God, open all doors for me ... I am asking for your help. I am asking you for forgiveness. I am asking you to lighten my way. I am asking you to lift the burden I feel ...''
Was this an attempt to smother latent feelings of compassion towards the passengers on the hijacked planes who included children among them or towards the thousands who would die when the aircraft crashed? Did the 19 suicide bombers say these words to themselves in their last moments?
Or didn't they need to.
Today's main headlines Comment To maintain site performance, it may be necessary to suspend some of our usual features from time to time. Apologies.
- Pilot arrested in Britain 'had trained the hijackers'
- British woman journalist held by Taliban 'was dressed as Afghan'
- In crayons, pencils and paints, an eloquent and moving memorial to the horror of 11 September
- Anniversary is marked by gunfire and death
- Pentagon admits special forces are in Afghanistan
- Taliban reject clerics' call to hand over bin Laden
- Last words to hijackers: Wear clean clothes and seek God's forgiveness
1 Posted on 09/29/2001 15:30:21 PDT by Paul Ross
Answer to the first question: a deranged one.2 Posted on 09/29/2001 15:32:29 PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast
I took that to mean no more topless clubs,drinking to keep your cover etc....No more acting like a normal healthy human being.3 Posted on 09/29/2001 15:33:12 PDT by eastforker
Interesting4 Posted on 09/29/2001 15:34:39 PDT by Free the USA
I wonder if this document, and the fact that it was easily found, was meant to somehow perhaps throw off the investigators. Maybe it was Sadaam all along, and he had them carry this crazy sounding Islamic crap, (and what, that picture of Bin Laden in the car???) in order to implicate him (believe me, I have no problem crushing OBL and his guys anyways, regardless).5 Posted on 09/29/2001 15:40:24 PDT by ParadoxA Question my wife asked that I wasnt really able to answer. Why would you even PACK LUGGAGE if you were on a suicide mission???
Ha! Maybe I should brush off that Aluminum Beanie...
What Muslim Would Write: 'The time of fun and waste is gone'?
The television variety.
I've noticed that the "picture" that emerges of the terrorists is straight out of the movie "The Siege" -- the terror in NYC with all the trimmings. It's that pseudo-Arab with the CIA girlfriend, a dope-smoking drunk fornicator would-be debauched American. About as "muslim" as a pork chop.
I mean here we have guys in bars the night before, with dancers on their laps, running off to murder and mayhem with a semi-pious letter theologically unrelated to Islam. These are "muslims"? In what action-packed Hollywood thriller are these people "muslims"?
Let's see the Arabic. It's not like there aren't millions of Americans who can read it, we're all over the place.
And what about that promised "evidence" that Tuesday's terror was connected to our favorite bogeyman? Could we see something that isn't manufactured, please?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
I don't think we can really figure these people out because their culture and beliefs are completely different than ours. They have a very different mindset that we can never understand. I think they are basically like sharks, they just want the taste of blood and are in a blood frenzy.
I think I'd agree with that -- those behind the terror war are just as you describe. But muslim? That's not at all tenable, you haven't come close to describing muslims.
This is from Islam the Straight Path to God:
... muslims do not deny the truth contained in the Holy Bible; indeed, muslims recognize that it describes the path of seeking the guidance of God. For a muslim, the Torah and the Gospel are God's designs by which He enables the Children of Israel and the followers of Jesus to care for their responsibilities: as the trust was placed with all humanity to respect or to abuse so also are the Holy Scriptures a statement of the design of God and His Will concerning those of His servants who read them. Islam, which pursues the example of Muhammad and the Message of God he brought, bears witness as well to the truth that was given to Moses and the Word of the Messiah Jesus: and attests that the pathways of rectitude are available as well to followers of faiths besides Islam.
And this is from A Political Process for Muslim America :
The priorities of Americans are nearly identical with those of muslims: stability, family, productivity, opportunity and toleration merely begin the list of truly shared values. The actual privileged class in America and in the muslim world is children, whose prospect for a better future is paramount. Unlike the Israeli Occupation of the Holy Land, neither Americans nor muslims attack their opponents' children, as an object lesson to expel parents or for any other reason.
Cooperation across lines of personal differences is also a hallmark of American society, which has united the energies of an eclectic populace in enhancing the quality of life for friend and foe alike. Feud, vendetta, and other perpetual animosities are abhorrent to Americans, who with rare exception remain prepared to resolve disputes and end conflict in favor of amity and a more profitable cooperation. This also is required of muslims by their faith, in explicit terms, and the muslims respond religiously.
So "their culture and beliefs are completely different than ours. They have a very different mindset that we can never understand" describes the terrorists well, I'm sure. But it certainly does not describe muslims, I'm as American as one can get, and a muslim. There's no contradiction at all.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Having made many Muslim friends while in college, I can state without malice, that it is not unusual for young male Muslims, given the "opportunities" found in the US, to drop strict obedience to the dictates of the Prophet.
LOL! You're very kind to understate this so euphemistically. We home-grown American muslims are fully familiar with this behavior that involves some (far too many, it's really an embarrassment) visitors from the millennial muslim world, who latch onto a Trans-Am and a bachelor pad and as many blondes as they can impress with effusive good manners, and try to inseminate a next generation of absent-parent children. Another small percentage of such visiting students, discovering for the first time in their lives that they can talk about "politics" and "religion" without being arrested and shot, act just like American college students and check their gathering places for hidden CIA microphones and indulge in rampant paranoia as they plan the overthrow of the oppressors, whoever this week's oppressors might be -- sometimes Americans, usually their home governments.
It's so stereotypical and caricaturish that it would be comical were there not unintended children born to unmarried coeds, and neophyte radicals ripe for plucking and recruitment when they go home with their degrees.
But the bulk -- 93% according to the last study I saw -- remain as they were at home: placid almost to the point of being perpetually cowed, studious (they're here to insure good jobs when they return home), and keeping to themselves in the mosques. The radicals and playboys rise to prominence like the trash of a flood, only to be swept away in time, while the quiet students go unnoticed and unremembered.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
I'll believe you are a good person, maybe you are naturally a good person and it isn't because or or in spite of Islam. But I'm wondering alot about Islam now, since bin Laden and all the terrorists seem to find something in the Koran that justifies mass murder, what evil is it that they are tapping into and how does it seem to have made it's way into the Koran itself?
13 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:32:18 PDT by FITZ
14 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:39:58 PDT by Travis McGee
At the colleges I went to it was more than "some", it was most and it certainly didn't seem to be a new trait they had just picked up upon landing in the US. In fact when asked, they universally refer to Islamic law (and I believe they find this justified in the Koran) about the mut'a (temporary marriages). They told me the marriages can last one night, one week, or whatever agreed upon amount of time and there is some kind of material gift made to the woman as part of the deal. They all seemed to have had temporary marriages the same way back home so I question the purity of many of the women too.
15 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:40:39 PDT by FITZ
The reference was to America. The time of fun and waste is over [for America].
16 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:46:10 PDT by Naspino
What an idiotic statement. The letter was not intended for public consumption--it was in the baggage that Atta believed would be burned up with the rest of the plane. Why would it be expected to mention "any of Osama bin Laden's demands"?
17 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:49:12 PDT by denydenydeny
I too am sceptical of this government evidence. This sounds more of a mistake, hoax, manufectured government lie. As if hijackers who are alleged to have planned this for many years wanted to leave evidence so obvious that even dumb criminals would not.
One reason to leave evidence is so that you can be indentified and remembered forever in this world.
18 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:52:07 PDT by Free the USA
19 Posted on 09/29/2001 21:55:51 PDT by FITZ
I ask in all sincerity, what kind of religion promises jihadists an eternity of sex with virgins as a reward for committing mass murder in the name of their god?
How many times are we going to have this conversation, Travis? I've said repeatedly that Islam has no such teaching either of "an eternity of sex with virgins as a reward" or "committing mass murder."
I keep seeing your "sincerity" raising the same answered questions over and over again. What's your agenda here?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
20 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:05:48 PDT by ankaboot
And you still have an iron-clad deal that if you die in the act of slaying infidels, you go straight to Allah's Paradise, to collect your 72 virgins and begin your eternity of fornicating.
It's the "best of both world's" for suicide commandos. Guaranteed by Allah, or so they believe.
21 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:05:58 PDT by Travis McGee
22 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:13:08 PDT by tiki
23 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:13:44 PDT by Texasforever
It is no good coming to Free Republic to convince non-moslems about what a peaceful religion Islam is: we have eyes to see the results, in New York and elsewhere from the Phillipines to Nigeria.
You need to get on the Islamic bulletin boards and convince your murder-bent co-religionists of the error of their ways before they bring ruin to the entire moslem world.
You need to understand that if there are a few more 9-11s, trade and travel between the West and Islamic states will cease. The West will hit hard at the terrorist sanctuaries, the Islamic nations will lynch all Westerners they can find, and Arab Moslems will be dealt with harshly in the West, either by our governments, or our well armed people.
We cannot simply allow hidden terrorists the luxury of living among us by wearing the sheep's clothing of "moderation". Mohammed Atta was a very "moderate" Moslem Arab until the day he slit the throats innocent stewardesses and pilots and flew a large Boeing jetliner into a building full of 20,000 innocent people. If terrorists can so easily hide among us, then after more terrorist attacks we will corral the sheep these wolves hide among so effectively. We are talking about national survival.
This ugly future is assured if you cannot persuade your mad co-religionists to take some sort of rabies shots.
There is no middle ground, my American friend: you either stand with America, or you stand with the terrorists.
24 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:24:49 PDT by Travis McGee
25 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:34:45 PDT by FITZ
At the colleges I went to it was more than "some", it was most and it certainly didn't seem to be a new trait they had just picked up upon landing in the US.
Each country in the millennial muslim world has (or had) their "favorite" American universities to which they sent all of their state-sponsored students (which is almost all students from there). I saw students from Saudi Arabia all at one university in Oregon in the early Seventies and ten years later all the Saudi students in Oregon were at another -- someone had changed a list somewhere. That pattern was the same all over -- the students liked to be with other students from their home country, and it made it easier for their country's secret police to keep track of them, as well. Students from Libya were all concentrated at the Oregon State University; from the United Arab Emirates all at Portland State; and from Iraq all at Portland State. The students you saw were certainly -- and obviously -- from Persia (Iran):
In fact when asked, they universally refer to Islamic law (and I believe they find this justified in the Koran) about the mut'a (temporary marriages). They told me the marriages can last one night, one week, or whatever agreed upon amount of time and there is some kind of material gift made to the woman as part of the deal. They all seemed to have had temporary marriages the same way back home so I question the purity of many of the women too.
"Muta" is strictly a Shi'ah practice, which is in Persia (Iran), and elsewhere Shi'ah are a minority -- often subversive and underground. Suicide attacks are also a Shi'ah innovation; and the people you see whipping themselves and cutting their scalps and bleeding every year -- those are Shi'ah. Most of the pictures shown in another Thread, maybe "Anti-US Protests," here at Free Republic -- that show several women with identical head coverings -- are from Shi'ah demonstrations. (Those "aggressive demonstrators" have invaded their home towns already, it seems.)
Arab Sunni (traditional) muslims encounter another thing entirely. When they step of the plane at Heathrow, they see female skin for the first time in their lives that isn't their mother's or their sister's. The light bounces off the cleavage into their eyes, down to their gonads, and up to their brains and burns out some circuitry, that isn't just an American experience. Then when they get off the plane at Kennedy it happens again. Some, I'm sure, become "temporary Shi'ah" on the weekend, but mostly they don't practice muta, they just do it the American way. I suspect I don't need to explain American campus customs to you ...
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
26 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:40:28 PDT by ankaboot
Well, I guess we know what we call it in this culture when a material gift is made to the woman as part of the deal. Thanks to the libbers, our women now give it away without even expecting marriage or a "material gift."
27 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:52:03 PDT by Let's Roll
28 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:57:51 PDT by Travis McGee
Well stated and THANK YOU! I wholeheartedly concur!
29 Posted on 09/29/2001 22:57:52 PDT by onyx
No we are not going to let Cain sucker us this time into going out into the field on a peaceful pretext only to get creamed.
30 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:01:31 PDT by HiTech RedNeck
Like Travis stated, "You are either with US or with the terrorists".
31 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:01:44 PDT by seeker41
I flew out of Riyadh many times to London and once out of Saudi airspace the Muslim women headed for the bathrooms to don their tight designer jeans and the men started emptying the plane's supply of booze. The behavior of the hijackers was NOT atypical at all.
I've heard this before, from American muslim sisters who had been married to Arabs and have lived for a time on the Island (Saudi, UAE, Qatar, etc). The Arab muslims I've known have been those who spend their time in the mosques, and religious scholars and jurisprudents, not the boys in the bars and bedrooms. I've only met Americanized Arabs after they've had some life-altering experience that sends them back to the mosque. The hotshots I've mostly just heard about, from the American women they've deserted with children.
You have Arabs on their way away from Islam, and Americans on their way into Islam, and they meet briefly, "romantically" in two completely different senses -- and tragically -- before continuing in the directions they were going. I don't think that's representative.
I think "religion" that one can take off and put on a hanger in a closet is not tremendously illustrative of the "Islam" that American muslims know. And as for the people of the muslim world, I think the muslims I've known through the mosques are more typical than any number of randy singles coming to get their American college degrees and lifestyles to take home.
I could never figure it out -- we have destroyed American cropland by making it dependent on chemical fertilizers and wiping out the bacterio-biological basis of agriculture. These guys come over here to export that same destructive "science" to their homelands? We've ruined large portions of California's central valley with mineral deposits from hard water brought over the mountains -- muslims come here to learn to do the same to their homelands? None of it makes sense. Neither does random promiscuity, other than as a "When in Rome, do as ..." proposition that they learn from American television and on the campus.
[shakes head] How do they reckon they can survive such things? It's not like they don't know better, from their grandmothers' laps. It's we Americans who learn these things the hard way, the Arabs have no excuse.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
32 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:07:53 PDT by ankaboot
33 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:10:16 PDT by Robert Lomax
34 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:12:51 PDT by belac
35 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:13:13 PDT by Travis McGee
I don't want to be rude to you and you may be a fine person but, please stop with the muslim stuff.
LOL! ROFL! A Thread with "Muslim" in the Subject line -- and a question mark, even -- and you think I shouldn't be posting to it? That's rich, but it isn't the America I was born in. Were you born after the Korean Conflict, by any chance?
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
36 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:15:09 PDT by ankaboot
You're right there. I did know many more Persians than Arabs and the Persians were the ones who told me about mut'a. They claim the Arabs are far less moral than Persians, the Arabs practice polygamy much more and Persians are almost monogamous. They pointed out that many Arabs unlike Persians have the big oil money dollars and are the ones living it up drinking and going to Las Vegas and buying gaudy jewelry and cars.
37 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:16:19 PDT by FITZ
38 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:20:25 PDT by Texasforever
In word, what are the Islamic nations going to eat after they succeed in destroying trade and travel between Islamic countries and the West? And never mind the type of fertilizer.
You asked my "agenda" a few posts back, and I answered around #24, but now you are ducking me and going off on tangents.
Also address the fact that the insane death cultists in Al Qa'ida etc are Wahhabist SUNNI Moslems, not Shi'Ah as you try to make them out to be.
39 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:24:44 PDT by Travis McGee
I don't think you can blame Americans for Arabs' wild ways when they come here. I read one of Osama bin Laden's wives was just 12 when he traded on of his little daughters to another older man for her. Pedophilia isn't moral and obviously that means little girls lose their virginity very young so you can't compare that with American women waiting until they are 20 or so.
40 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:30:03 PDT by FITZ
41 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:39:56 PDT by col kurz
I like that too, and I don't care if I AM rude!
The muslims in this country better start policing themselves and start denouncing the terrorists from the rooftops. I don't mean like the shills we see on TV that we later find out are Hamas supporters either. Was that guy the BEST they could come up with, or are they all like that?
These terrorists are still among us, and it appears they have lots of support. Get the internment camps opened up until we get them sorted out! Right or wrong - it doesn't matter. It's what's safe and smart for OUR country. We've been been around for 225 years while these bums were still living in dirt in their backwards hell holes, waiting on someone to show them how to pump oil.
I feel better now!
42 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:41:21 PDT by Bill Rice
(Until their wedding night, when they meet their new 45 year old husband/rapist as wife #4 for the first time.)
Lovely culture. (The ideal wife is buried in her perfectly clean and new ceremonial wedding shoes as a sign that she never had to ever leave her husband's house: the lesser wives, servants and slaves did all the shopping.)
43 Posted on 09/29/2001 23:46:02 PDT by Travis McGee
If they do, where's the paradise?
If they don't, then even though they WERE virgins, sooner or later in eternity, they're gonna start getting pretty sloppy.
Not only that, but eventually, they'd all start fighting, and bitching over "the heroe". Again - where's the paradise here?
44 Posted on 09/30/2001 00:08:12 PDT by Bill Rice
My agenda is defending America, and we are going to have this conversation until you come to grips with the fact that a large and deadly minority of your religion believes the "suicide murder approved by Allah" nonsense.
No, your agenda is painting all the muslims with that brush, when you know it's false color. My agenda is defending America from Americans like you, who want to run like lemmings off a rather high cliff involving the slaughter of innocents without evidence. You're advancing the agenda of the terrorists with your false light propaganda, and it's for some narrow agenda of your own, not for America or for Americans.
It is no good coming to Free Republic to convince non-moslems about what a peaceful religion Islam is: we have eyes to see the results, in New York and elsewhere from the Phillipines to Nigeria.
I've been at Free Republic eight months longer than you have. I'd been off studying computer privacy and network security until this madness began. I didn't "come to Free Republic to convince" anyone of anything, I'm known here.
Americans are going down to their local mosques and meeting muslims daily, all over America, and comparing what they find there with what they see on television. It doesn't match and they know better than to trust the media, they trust their own judgment and what is in front of their eyes. Bookstores are sold out of English language Qur'ans. I don't need to convince anyone of anything -- I'm just further illuminating a blatantly partisan agenda that's been demonizing one fifth of the human race since before I was born.
Freepers see it, it's not hidden, it's erupted at Free Republic at this newest "opportunity" of six thousand martyred innocents like it was part of a plan or something. You've either bought it, wholesale, and remain in your "free press" information media bubble, unconnected with people on the ground, or it's your agenda. I'm merely wondering which it is because I've answered your questions to your admitted satisfaction only to see you post the exact same questions again. That's called disingenuous, which is not what I expected from you.
You need to get on the Islamic bulletin boards and convince your murder-bent co-religionists of the error of their ways before they bring ruin to the entire moslem world.
The Islamic bulletin boards are overrun by Hindus and trolls, it's been like that for years, there are only a handful of muslims who post to them and none of them write what you pretend here. Well, there's one guy in Texas, a 24-year-old firebrand from Hizb-ut-Tahrir, but he's a joke, he posts boilerplate hard-line ideologue tracts that are more long-winded than I am, even.
The millennial muslim world, as I've said repeatedly in many Threads in all forums, has been in a state of terminal collapse for centuries. We already know from prophecy that at the beginning of The Hour, the Arabs will be few, but that just before that they're numerous but like the flotsam and jetsam of a flood -- scum is the word used in the Hadith. I have no other expectations of the Arab world, except that they're expecting to raise a phony "Imam Mahdi" -- like the Persians thought Khomeini was at least related with -- to go along with the False Messiah expected from other quarters. None of the prophetic evidences of any of those things has shown up yet, but the Arabs are obviously far into the terminal decay that started a thousand years ago.
My focus is on where I was born and where countless generations of my ancestors were born -- America. Some refugees who have reached these shores just lately, whether from Belfast or Britanny or Portugal or Poland or Palestine, have brought with them some strange notions of racial or ethnic supremacy, and some odd tendencies to demonize people on the basis of a false notion of what they believe and think. You're doing that. It suits the terrorists' agenda for you to do that, it's exactly what they intended.
There is no middle ground, my American friend: you either stand with America, or you stand with the terrorists.
And you're advancing the terrorists' agenda, pitting Americans against their neighbor Americans and sowing suspicion, demonization of innocents, and hatred. No one denies that there are "muslims" -- and I clearly identify Shi'ah doctrine, methodology, strategy and tactics for you but that's not sufficient to your agenda -- who are all the way gone from their religious roots into Marxist-Leninist dialectical materialist confrontational politics, anti-colonialism, brigandage, murder and mayhem and terrorism. Duh. One out of five human beings believes in that? That's a sick joke to even think that, and Marx, Lenin and Sartre are most definitely not "muslim" teachers.
There are some crazies from "traditional" muslim countries who know so little about their religion that they buy the Shi'ah rhetoric and methodologies. Duh. No Americans would ever fall for, say, the peacenik rhetoric of Chairman Mao or anything. The first car bomb in Palestine was Jewish, we know who imported modern terrorism into the Holy Land from Europe -- it's NOT native to the Semitic populations of the Holy Land and it is not intrinsic to Islam, and you know it.
You're advancing the terrorists' aims and claiming it's a "defense" of America. Demonizing American muslims doesn't defend anything at all, it's just another element of the attack on America. A major element, as I've explained elsewhere: a backlash against American muslims and the provocation of a military adventure against people who didn't do the deed, and without evidence, to posit the decayed millennial muslim world against America. That's their agenda, it looks like you're promoting most of it.
I've covered that comprehensive attack on America -- not a response to American "policies" but an attack on America itself, totally -- in many of the Threads I've linked below. You've been in some of them, "Former Navy SEAL and ocean sailor who lives in San Diego" and Second Amendment advocate, we'd get along fine were you to stop maligning Americans and painting a false picture of a religion you know a bit more about than the average turnip.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
Waiting for the Antichrist
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War"
A Moment For Truth
Mr. Sharon's obduracy endangers Israel
Islam 610 AD - Present: The Endless Jihad
One nation, under Islam
five-page handwritten document found
Taliban asks bin Laden to leave country
Delusions Of Grandeur
The Sanitation of Islam
Confusion over FBI's hijacker list
The plight of Muslims
"Extreme" CAIR?
ODIGO Says Workers Warned
Far Gone In 30 Seconds
Arab Ministers Denounce Attacks
What Muslim Would Write: 'The time of fun ...'
45 Posted on 09/30/2001 00:31:50 PDT by ankaboot
46 Posted on 09/30/2001 00:38:32 PDT by Clinton's a rapist
You go into minute detail on the sexual social travel habits of Moslems, and even agriculture and the ecology, but how about going into some detail explaining to us non-Moslems the sick psychological pathology sweeping through Islamic nations today, which may ruin our Western economies for a while, but which will boomerang back to bring utter ruin to the Islamic world?
Largely what we're seeing is an extremist "Wahhabi-cum-Khawarij" version of the tyranny of the Abbasid dynasty, starting over a thousand years ago, and the competitive but allied revolutionary Shi'ah doctrines that have roots in that same Abbasid tyranny, both refined with modern dialectical materialist marxist-leninist anti-colonialism and confrontational politics spread into poorly educated populist parties by western-educated "modernist" muslims who dress it all in the terminology of priestly religion. And it's all aggravated and augmented also by a proto-zionism that is equally sophisticated with modern design although much older.
But those are just some of the players -- the terror war against America is much, much older than any of them, from what I'm seeing in the context of the entire tapestry of religious traditions (plural). Like I've said, I haven't seen the "establishing" conclusive prophetic evidences yet, but the totality of prophecy is consistent with what I've been seeing from evidences that are already established.
But it's not clear, and Signs are absolutely clear and unambiguous or they're not Signs. My read of the reconciled traditions is that the worst of it happens in the eastern hemisphere, but the intensity is aimed in our direction. What's clear from prophecy, and also suggested by a secular scientific analysis of the physical evidences we have in the present, is that we're not done yet. Everything looks to me like a battle to the death of America or our enemies. The best case is for them to self-destruct, and for us to keep our hands clean. The prospects for that are unclear.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
47 Posted on 09/30/2001 01:08:21 PDT by ankaboot
Also address the fact that the insane death cultists in Al Qa'ida etc are Wahhabist SUNNI Moslems, not Shi'Ah as you try to make them out to be.
The Shi'ah doctrine of taqiyyah, or dissimulation, makes it impossible to positively identify any of the regimes in the millennial muslim world as authentically sunni. The doctrinal roots of Wahhabism are in the Khawarij, who made common cause with the (sunni) Abbasid and Shi'ah to overthrow the Umayyad dynasty. The Abbasids then turned on the Shi'ah and the Khawarij, driving them underground for the long haul. Penetration of the Sunni ruling classes began sometime before the rise of the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt, and it's not possible to rely on the intelligence obtained from any source in the region, muslim or otherwise. Just as America's intelligence organs are invested with a fifth column from an inimical foreign power, so every outwardly -- and possibly genuine -- Sunni regime is probably compromised by dissimulating Shi'ah who have been there for generations.
Similarly what are seen to be "modern" political doctrines emerging from among Sunni populations are neither muslim nor Sunni, the most likely provenance is leftist penetration through Shi'ah dissimulation. The writings of the Persian 'Ali Shari'ati differ from the writings of the Pakistani Abul 'Ala Maudoodi only in the style of their rhetoric and luminaries, Shi'ah on the one hand, Sunni on the other but identical in terms of ideological underpinnings and political theory -- with Sartre and Trotsky and Ho, theories of permanent populist revolution by elite "vanguard" cadres.
Bin Laden appears to be Wahhabi/Salafiyya, the Taliban look to me more Sunni than the Saudis ever have been. I know the Deobandi academies that schooled them. "al-Qaeda" is a list of everyone who has an Afghani visa stamp on his passport plus everyone who's ever called any of a list of telephone numbers plus shadows in every corner. Regular TO&E Laden forces are a small section of the "suspect" list and probably, for the most part, with bin Laden, wherever he is these days. Except as a populist symbol, bin Laden looks to me like a distraction, the speech I posted from the Persian looks a lot more material to me. There is still NO evidence from the Tuesday Terror that links to bin Laden, and the disinformation trail laid by the terrorists as the final stage of preparation is definitely not anything we have considered indicative of what we have assumed to be (similarly without conclusive evidence) his previous actions.
I wouldn't insure bin Laden's life, that's for sure. But I don't think killing him will stop the terror war or even have any impact on it. We've been aimed at bin Laden, quite systematically and professionally. I don't trust that at all and I don't think our government does either.
I'm going to bed -- soon, I hope. Please stop slandering your fellow Americans, we're all under attack together. The Salafiyya radicals in America's mosques are marginalized and isolated by their companions, they're spotlighted and they couldn't move even if they wanted to, and they're scared as they should be. Where there's evidence, they're on their way downtown if they should live so long. There's hardly an American muslim anywhere who doesn't realize that those planes were aimed at us.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
48 Posted on 09/30/2001 01:42:02 PDT by ankaboot
Obviously, Robert, the hijacking was a cry for help. We are all guilty. We must look to the root causes of terrorism. The answer lies at the interface of caring and sharing. What does Polly Toynbee think?
LOL! Excuse me, I think I'll go pray for rain. Some of you need a cold shower.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
49 Posted on 09/30/2001 01:47:01 PDT by ankaboot
I think most of us believe the terrorism is being done by foreign born muslims but in war there are always backlashes to the possible innocent people who had nothing to do with the problem. Not too many of us have ever met an American muslim who has been American for many generations because in most cities there were no mosques or muslims just 30-40 years ago. If American muslims aren't wearing towels on their heads or speaking with heavy accents, I don't even know how someone would pick them out of a crowd since they're Caucasian just like many of us are.
50 Posted on 09/30/2001 08:21:53 PDT by FITZ
That's why I find it of note that the FBI has started only about a hundred investigations of backlash "hate" crimes and there have been only three or so killings. The backlash itself was intended by the terrorists, and it fizzled. Actually it backfired: Americans are learning about Islam like we've been prevented from doing since the Mayflower landed -- except, of course, deep in the initiatory secret societies of the lodges and in the Anti-Islam Brigades.
Not too many of us have ever met an American muslim who has been American for many generations because in most cities there were no mosques or muslims just 30-40 years ago.
There were a few. But it was an "unofficial" visa requirement for foreign students from the millennial muslim world that they not publicly display or articulate Islam, and of course in their home countries talking about Islam is a government monopoly, the lawyers can do it but the laity can't. The dam broke in the Sixties, there were 1500 mosques and Islamic Centers by 1975. I've been tracking it somewhat since 1971, as you probably can see from what I've been writing. The numbers are fudged, our population is about fifteen million right now. Local community leaders do not want to give accurate information to the professional national organizations established mainly with foreign funding. The prominent are not the leaders and the leaders are not the prominent. I've worked very hard to be nobody, I've been moderately successful at it.
If American muslims aren't wearing towels on their heads or speaking with heavy accents, I don't even know how someone would pick them out of a crowd since they're Caucasian just like many of us are.
LOL! America's enemies can't see us either. There are too many people in America who do have faith -- not necessarily according to this or that doctrine -- that our enemies are blinded and can't tell who's who. A slight miscalculation.
We can't split the hearts. We can't see into someone's personal relationship with God. Mine is of no pertinence to you, either -- I might appear with all the proofs of piety and knowledge and truth and all the rest and we still wouldn't know for sure. What counts is conduct -- acts -- works -- deeds. Those provide evidence, imaginings don't.
A lot of muslims in America believe that we're a nation of 280 million muslims who don't know it yet. I don't think so. I think we're supposed to be in the Houses of Shem and in the shadows of the Houses of Shem, and that's where everyone in America happens already to be: the faithful of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, and Noah, and the freedom of and from religion common to those traditions.
Israel never attacked anyone who hadn't attacked Israel first, not before the death of Solomon. God told them -- in Scripture, it's still there and anyone can read it -- when and who to attack. History didn't begin in 1948.
And it didn't begin 1400 years ago, either. Humanity has lived through a much longer dark night than that brief glimmer of light that's now four hundred years darkened.
Still looks like dawn to me.
was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
51 Posted on 09/30/2001 21:22:20 PDT by ankaboot
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
[
Top
|
Latest Posts
|
Latest Articles
|
Self Search
|
Add Bookmark
|
Post
|
Abuse
|
Help!
]
FreeRepublic , LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 Forum Version 2.0a Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC |