I'm not a Muslim but I'm very curious to know if there are Muslim Freepers on the forum? I haven't heard of any. I know there are Christians of all stripes, Jews, Agnostics, and Atheists, but I've not seen any Muslims yet.

Not sure if he was a "FReeper" but he was posting quite a bit recently. I forget his handle but it meant the spider in English. I tried to locate hs handle but was unable. Sorry I could help more.

Why do you want to know?

Will it make a diff somehow?

ankaboot

LOL, like they'd identify themselves. Any Freepers that voted for Gore?

Isn't A+ Bert in Hamas?

I'm white

I'm not sure many Muslims will respond

it's not a good decade to say you're Muslim in the US

...to which I say "oh well"

next ? please

My family is Muslim and from Iran. I was born in Canada and live in Texas now. I'm not really religious. I have a cousin that had to sneak out on a camel (I'm not kidding) across the desert to Turkey after the 1979 "revolution", and he cannot stand anything to do with Islam. If you notice, all the economies of countries that have an Islamic takeover of the government go way down.

I did want to make a few comments about my own observations of people from the Middle East. I notice that the only way that their world view can make sense is with elaborate consiracies. A U.S. Israeli conspiracy is the most obvious, but people that have been here for 50 years think that the U.S. is intentionally keeping the Middle East down and bringing boat loads of money, literally like pirates, from there to here.

Also, I wanted to say that I feel that modern Islam in the Middle-East is Anti-American despite what Bush says. Have you heard of a major Islamic leader in the Middle-East say that Islam should not preach Anti-American hate messages, brainwashing children to aspire to martyrdom in a holy war with the U.S.? I have not. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. Modern Islam is Anti-American. People will quote the Koran and say Islam is nonviolent, but look at the islamic leaders. Even if they disagree with Anti-American messages. They say nothing about them, giving tacit approval to the extremists. Don't get me wrong I think Islam has been hijacked just like those planes, but no one is doing anything to take the religion back.

Thanks for telling the truth.

If they dare to tell the truth, they get a bullet.

Radical Wahhabist Islam thrives everywhere through pure terror, from the Phillipines to Nigeria.

Have you considered writing a nice letter to President Bush?

I think if enough like you could enlighten him, we may get somewhere.

Your question is not precise.

Do you mean Moslem background or PRACTICING Moslems.

I know many people who are from Moslem countries but who do not practice Islam.

In fact almost all of them hate religion, not just Islam, but ALL religion.

no one is doing anything to take the religion back

You are right, the only Islam leaders I've seen speak out against this are the very moderate American ones.

Bless you.

Your comments are very sobering. "Modern Islam is anti-American." I thought so, but now I know. Thank you.

Modern Islam's teachings explain why bin Laden is thought of as a hero, and not a fanatical monster.

What percentage of Muslims do you think adhere to the anti-American rant?

I know many people who are from Moslem countries but who do not practice Islam. In fact almost all of them hate religion, not just Islam, but ALL religion.

Squares pretty well with the German experience. Hitler tried to hijack Christianity, then turned on them when most refused to cooperate. Then there was the 30 years war when Catholics and Protestants took turns burning each other's villages.

Actually, I think they would identify themselves. Not all Muslims are of Arab descent, but I believe Arab-Americans are more likely to vote REPUBLICAN...

I know we have some Arab freepers, but Arab does not neccessary = Muslim/Islamic. In fact, I assumed that around 60-70% of all American Arabs would be Muslims, but recently I discoved my sterotypes were wrong and acutally only about 30% are. A great deal of Arab Americans are Christians...which probably explains why they a very high record of voting Republican if you count them as a "minority" group. ;-)

That being said, I have an unfavorable view of Muslims in GENERAL (note I did NOT say all Muslims), and I wish we'd stop bending over backwards to ensure we "accomidate" them in "this time of crisis". Alot of Middle-eastern Muslims will not return the favor when it comes to "accomidating" minority religions in THEIR countries, so I say that we should look for them to observe the golden rule FIRST.

I notice that the only way that their world view can make sense is with elaborate cons(p)iracies.

I have noticed this as well. Much worse than even freerepublic on a slow day. They believe that we are dumping our radioactive waste in their deserts, for example. And probably only 10% will believe that the WTC was due to Arab extremists. 70% will believe it was the Jews, 20% will think it was the CIA.

Isn't A+ Bert in Hamas?

Nah, he and Cultural Jihad started their own terrorist group called Dumbas.

I don't think you are going to get many answers. During Desert Storm, I worked with a man who was originally from Iraq. He kept a very low profile during those days.

Let's see, we've use Arab, Muslim, Middle Eastern. Does anyone understand the difference in all these terms? I'm Middle Eastern but I'm not Arabic nor Muslim.

Not a good start.

use = used the

LOL

He's been booted. He threatened my life, literally.

Let's see, we've use Arab, Muslim, Middle Eastern. Does anyone understand the difference in all these terms? I'm Middle Eastern but I'm not Arabic nor Muslim.

Sure. You're not Islamic, therefore, you are likely to be okay.

They say nothing about them, giving tacit approval to the extremists. Don't get me wrong I think Islam has been hijacked just like those planes, but no one is doing anything to take the religion back.

Make no mistake: many of us feel the same way about our own "religion" unfortunately. Spirituality is a different matter.

I hope and pray that everyone in this country regardless of religion pulls together and fights back against these madmen....

therefore, you are likely to be okay.

Thanks Laz. Does it help that I'm part of the VRWC propaganda machinery?

ankaboot

Bingo!

I'm an indigenous American muslim, not Arab or Semitic, practicing and a jurisprudent for over thirty years.

I've been here since April 30, 1999. I posted here for a short while and then went to Steve Gibson's computer privacy and networking security newsgroups at news.grc.com for the last two years, and for five days or so after the Tuesday and then came back here.

I've used the same email address of muslims@earthlink.net to post around fifty megabytes of religious writings to Usenet newsgroups, all archived at Google, and thirty megabytes of computer security technical discussions on Gibson's news.grc.com newsgroups (NOT archived at Google) plus a megabyte of articulation of Islam in that last five days after the terrorists attacked. That's all since 1998.

I've seen at least three other muslims that I know who have posted intermittently here in Free Republic. I've also seen several muslims who I hadn't seen before. I've sent links, to the Threads I've been posting here, to twenty-five of the more articulate muslims I know from other forums, but they haven't responded to my invitation or at least haven't started posting yet. I suspect some may be reluctant to come to "middle America on-line" or "America's largest on-line conservative discussion forum," which is how I've represented Free Republic to them.

I'm the Republican Precinct Committeeman for this town, and I didn't vote for Gore. I didn't believe Clinton could possibly get re-elected, but I didn't think he could get elected in the first place, either. Seventy percent of America's muslims voted for Bush, and now the other thirty percent are telling us that he's betrayed us -- although I sure don't see that, and I don't think many think like that.

There are a lot more muslims in America today than there were two weeks ago, tens of thousands more, and they didn't fly in from somewhere across an ocean. Maybe some will come here to Free Republic, where the sensible people are. I could use some more help in countering the agenda-driven demonization of American muslims that has suddenly come to Free Republic. This is one aim of the terrorists that I intend to fight, no matter how many jingoists help them with their Anti-Islam Brigades.

"Ankaboot" means "spider" in Arabic. I think that's appropriate for a Web-crawler.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Thanks Laz. Does it help that I'm part of the VRWC propaganda machinery?

You've been doing extra-credit work! Of course you'll get an 'A'. :o)

Your reply 8 is informative,honest and thought provoking.Since I've known Iranians who left your odyssey is not that uncommon.

I see you're new to FR. Please stay around and education us more. We need your logical viewpoints.

I was at an Antiwar protest today, in Austin. A Pakistani Muslim handed me a pamphlet to come listen to discussions on Islam, Muslims, and the Recent Events. It's tomorrow at the University of Texas. Can you help me ask some intelligent questions, if I go?

After a bit of discussion, I did mention to him that I would believe that Islam was peaceful if the Muslim people in our country would rise up and be adamant about their denouncement of the terrorist acts. I said until then, I didn't believe their remorse.

By the way, I'm Middle Eastern also.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Radical Wahhabist Islam is a redundancy.Wahhabism,strict 'unitarian' sunni sect is the version in Saudi Arabia.

I know many people who are from Moslem countries but who do not practice Islam.

In fact almost all of them hate religion, not just Islam, but ALL religion. **********************

Yes,indeed,and with good cause.I wish more people felt that way here.

If you notice, all the economies of countries that have an Islamic takeover of the government go way down.

Do you believe the theory that Bin Laden's game plan is to see Saudia Arabia, Egypt and Jordan turn to Fundamental Islamic cleric rulers? I hear he is eager to become the new ruler of Saudia Arabia.

Bump

I'm Middle Eastern but I'm not Arabic nor Muslim.

Sounds like you then orginally from either from Isreal or Iran..

No my parents are from Syria and Turkey.

I suppose you are an Armenian and most likely from Lebanon,how'd I do?

I only hope that every word you posted is TRUE. Havn't been here in ages, but we must hang together now. This is the fight for civilization. I know all right thinking people want to be in on that civilization thing. God Bless America

It's true, whenever I see opinion polls from Islamic communities, there seems to be an almost comical (if it weren't so serious) pairanoia about "the Jews" and "Zionists." You'd think it was a bunch of White Power militas trading ZOG conspiracies.

Here's a few examples:

IslamiCity Poll - 65% think an FBI raid of a Muslim ISP was due to "zionists at work"

45% agree with suicide bombers in the Palestinian territories

Arabia.com - 33% think Israel was behind the 9/11 attack (13% think it was Arab groups)

You get an A+ :-) Now how did you guess?

Do you believe the theory that Bin Laden's game plan is to see Saudia Arabia, Egypt and Jordan turn to Fundamental Islamic cleric rulers? I hear he is eager to become the new ruler of Saudia Arabia.

If we go to war with those countries, they'll fall apart, which is exactly what Usama wants.

Then we have two options: To put in a repressive military dictator, or to allow Usama's buddies to take over, which is exactly what Usama wants.

If we do put in the military dictator, we'll have to defend him for decades in the UN. If we don't, we'll have permanent terrorist states where people are extremely poor and care about nothing other than the Jihad, which is exactly what Usama wants.

The only way we can win is to convince them to join us in our campaign against terror. But they won't really join us, at best they'll give us lukewarm support, arrest a few terrorists but give the rest a free hand. Then we're back to square one.

We've already lost this "war on terrorism," the only way we can "win" is to let loose the nukes and just eliminate all of them. Genocide is the only simple solution to this. (I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying it's the only solution. I think we'll just have to live with the problem, and beef up our own intelligence)

Then what will happen? No more grand-scale attacks, but leaderless resistance, where an American Muslim one day picks up a shotgun and guns down eight people before turning it on himself. If we take all the guns away, he'll drive a car into a crowded bus stop.

He won't be taking orders from the terrorist leaders--he'll be taking inspiration. Short of stopping radical muslims from getting their message out at all (which would mean heavily monitoring mosques and ripping up the 1st amendment), these attacks would continue. They will terrorize us like Israel is being terrorized. Any hate crimes against Muslims will only turn the majority of them against the rest of us.

Then we will have to decide whether or not to expel/intern all Muslims for the crimes of a few. This will put us at odds with the Muslim world, which is exactly what Usama wants.

sorry to post such a pessimistic message, but that's my assessment.

Intuition and I have had friends,acquantices of your background.Good people.

Oh cool, but I think Turkey is half in Europe and half in Asia..... , but I think Syria is a Arab nation.....

A lot of what you say seems to have merit. Bin Laden didn't enter this without a long range game plan. I only hope we have theleadership in our country that is needed at this very testing time.

I'm afraid we're on the verge of WWIII. I'm also concerned about the Russian, Chinese elements in all this. My meager understanding is that almost all countries in the world, have major concerns about their radical Islamic populations. This is getting eerie.

He's been booted. He threatened my life, literally.

Yikes. I was wondering what got him booted off 'terminally.'

My father, born in Syria, preached constantly about the USA and what a wonderful country we live in with freedoms not known elsewhere in the world, etc.

He constantly reminded us that we should not take this country for granted. He believed our way of life was a RARE achievement for mankind.

Thanks for your kind words. :-)

sounds like you are 1/3 european, 1/3 Asian and 1/3 Arab , Syria+turkey.

I'm afraid we're on the verge of WWIII. I'm also concerned about the Russian, Chinese elements in all this. My meager understanding is that almost all countries in the world, have major concerns about their radical Islamic populations. This is getting eerie.

Russia has a problem mostly with the separatists, not Muslims in Russia proper, although that population is growing, I believe. China has only a small problem with them, I think they'll easily be able to keep it under control in the short run. They might even support Muslims abroad, to 1)get them to leave China alone and 2)make trouble for the rest of us. My greatest fear is that China will weaken, and Islamism will fill the vacuum left by Communism as it collapses. As China collapsed, it would attempt to rally its people in an atheist holy war against Islam, which could be incredibly bloody.

Thanks goodness it's only my heritage for I consider myself 100% American, USA brand.

However, I learned to speak Armenian and Turkish before I spoke English. I find the "older" Middle Easterners and Moslems are not the problem. As Camrod stated, the ones that are hate filled are the neo brand of Fundamental Islamicism.(sp)

No European.

lol. well technically turkey is considered ASIA + europe, but as you said who cares,,,,because bottom line you are a red blooded american

Turkey is split between both lands, your correct. My mother was from the Asian side. However, there's been a green eyed, light haired child here and there so maybe some European milkman factored into the equation :-)

your = you're

Is KQQL a local radio station or????

lol..................

Bump.

Thank you for this well thought out analysis of modern Islam. I mean I'd like to believe they're all nonviolent, but even the Muslim that Bush has speak at the National Cathedreal had sponsored a rally supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. Either that's a string of bad luck, or radical extremism is far more common/accepted than we've been led to believe.

Let's see, we've use Arab, Muslim, Middle Eastern. Does anyone understand the difference in all these terms? I'm Middle Eastern but I'm not Arabic nor Muslim.

Persian?

"My greatest fear is that China will weaken, and Islamism will fill the vacuum left by Communism as it collapses. As China collapsed, it would attempt to rally its people in an atheist holy war against Islam, which could be incredibly bloody."

If China collapses, I expect Russia to move in, possibly in partnership with the US. I would also not be surprised if they (Russia) took an active part in China's collapse.

Are There Any Muslim Freepers?

I'm harboring serious doubts.

"Be like the better son of Adam."

What does that mean? I've read that some Islamics believe that they are descended from Abel, but the Jews and others were descended from Cain, who was literally (according to their belief) the spawn of the devil. (Or serpent.)

Islam is to religion, as Nazism is to politics.

Same thing the Muslims say about Judaism.

Part of the problem is there are so many desperate people trying to "take over Islam" for one purpose or the other.

It's long overdue for Moslems to come to the conclusion Europeans did regarding Christianity - and that is to just leave the other guys alone - if they are gong to mangle the religion, that's between them and God!

BTW, there are Moslems who both post here and lurk here. Most of them use pretty common names. I get Emails from a number of them from time to time.

BTW, that's just my handle - not my name. My folks have been here since/before Columbus, and I do not tan well at all!

They believe they are descended from Ishmael, son of Abraham. I had a frat bro who was a Lebanese Christian. He swore the Jews and Muslims were cut from the same cloth(literally). He reasoned that was why they fight so much.

Regarding those "conspiracy theories" folks come up with - a friend of mine whose inlaws are died-in-the-wool union people from Pittsburgh says they are convinced the government takes truckloads of money out of Pittsburgh every day to ship to Oil Companies abroad!

Maybe that's the money others report being loaded onto ships to go to America? (ROTFLMAO).

LOL

Same thing the Muslims say about Judaism.

Well then, I guess Rodney King will never get his wish.

Wahhabism,strict 'unitarian' sunni sect is the version in Saudi Arabia.

Put to power over there by our British friends. And being exported to Chechnya and other places. Thank you Brits.

But what is your take on the large Muslim communities in our cities??? Do they also hate America??? Seems as tho a lot of Muslims in America had some knowledge about the events on 9/11...

Would seem that there would be large rallies in American Muslim communities publicly denouncing these terrorists and their leaders...Yet, I hear stories of thousands of Muslims in Detroit rejoicing and waving Middle Eastern Flags over the WTC murders...

I have personally boycotted anything "Eastern" as many have done...Until I can see something positive, I'd rather be safe than sorry...

A+Bert threatened to kill you? How, by lighting a match in front of his moth as he blew at you for a Wild Turkey flamethrower?

Its fun to pick on the banned....

Celine is a Taliban Mulla.

Celine is a Taliban Mulla.

Naaaah, really? He seems like such nice friendly folk, LOL!

"I think Islam has been hijacked just like those planes, but no one is doing anything to take the religion back. "

Exactly my take on the subject.
Religion is a good way to control people.
It works VERY well when the people are dirt poor and don't have anything
including opportunity to change their circumstances.
IMHO, the "leaders" that promote the "hate" version of Islam are the ones that have to be attacked.
I'm not talking about physically attacking them, rather Islam itself should be used to discredit their teachings.
(It really doesn't look as though it should be that difficult.)
Convince practicing Muslims that these "leaders" have been misinterpreting the Word to enhance
their power and control and there wouldn't NEED to be a military operation to clean them out...

"Be like the better son of Adam."

What does that mean?

"Relate to them of the two sons of Adam with truth: how each offered, and it was accepted from one and not accepted from the other, who said 'I'll kill you.' He answered 'God accepts from the responsible. Even if you stretch out your hand to kill me, I will not stretch out my hand to kill you, surely I fear God, the Lord of the worlds. Really I would rather you bear the burden of sin on me and your own sin and become an owner of the Fire. That is the return of aggression.'" [Q5:27-29]

So Abel died and Cain took on whatever burden of sin Abel had had. Abel was the better son of Adam.

I've read that some Islamics believe that they are descended from Abel, but the Jews and others were descended from Cain, who was literally (according to their belief) the spawn of the devil. (Or serpent.)

You can throw that book away, it's trash. No muslim has any such notions. The Children of Israel and the children of Ishmael descended from Abraham who descended from Adam. We are all children of Adam, the devil is not a creature of flesh and blood and no muslim believes what you read.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

"I could use some more help in countering the agenda-driven demonization of American muslims that has suddenly come to Free Republic. This is one aim of the terrorists that I intend to fight, no matter how many jingoists help them with their Anti-Islam Brigades."

There are a few of us swinging away out here.
Seeing people on FR use the same arguments that the radical Muslims
are using to promote the same kind of hate goes a long way toward
explaining how people can buy into a "hate them all" philosophy.
If educated affluent (relatively) Freepers can buy into it, it's
easier to understand how someone who is ragged, poor, uneducated and
without a hope of ever changing their life can buy into the same thing.
I have to admit that I have had some good dialog with most of those
that I've debated with. If a thread can be kept from degenerating into
a hate fest then most will avoid slamming their minds shut.
You might check out some of Storm Orphan's posts.
He/She does a good job of pointing out the fallicy of
painting all Muslims with the same brush.

I'm not Muslim and all I know of Islam is what I have picked up over the years.
I've had several direct questions put to me that I havn't been able to find answers for.
If you happen to know of any good websites on the subject, please let me know.

Isn't A+ Bert in Hamas?
Nah, he and Cultural Jihad started their own terrorist group called Dumbas.

LMAO!!! I'll join, as long as we're terrorizing moral wuss-itude like Susan Sontag's brand of patriotism... And as long as there's a keg...

You are brave to post your reply. I have known other Muslims like yourself from Iran, and a number of others from places like Bosnia. They have said much the same thing as you. I would be interested to know how many in Iran support the current regime and how many are like you, only unable to have left.

thanks ankaboot. serious question: do you believe as the qaran teaches that Jesus was a prophet of God? thanks for your response. keep it brief if you would kindly, yes or no suffices.

thanks camrad. (i hate to literally take anyone at their word on this anonymous board, with all the propagandists that pump their bull into this board for their own jollies or foreign governments' aims) maybe this is for you or for someone else, but it is strong on my heart to make a plea that you would strongly consider your eternal condition, as everyone should, and here in america right now particularly, i suppose. religion is dead, just like the icons they point to. a relationship with Jesus Christ, our Creator, who lives and reigns from Heaven, is eternal life and peace. try asking Him to come into your life and making Himself real to you, then once you've admitted you aren't perfect, and that you know He knows the deeds and thoughts of your life, ask Him to make you the person that our Father wants you us to be (i'm a work in progress). God's speed. after a long, hard and complicated life, i reflect now quite a bit and know now that if even a sinner like i was could receive grace and mercy to begin to contribute to the kingdom, then i must share however i can. the longsuffering will end the Word says, and that's a boat not to be missed. eternity is not a joke, we don't blink off, we either live and reign with God or we suffer endlessly (worse than your worst moments on earth perpetually and forever) without Him, and without ANY hope. it's strong on my heart that america will cease as we know it even today long before the Holy Spirit and disnpensation of grace is removed from the earth. end preaching.

Good insight. thanks.

After looking over the Koran I've realised that the terrorists are faithfull . Then there are the propaganda spreaders, then there are those who obviously don't take the Korans teachings to heart . The Koran is taught to be without error, to be read as if every word means what it means .

The Koran is like KKK propaganda, in that it teaches that killing those who don't follow it's teachings are below followers and meant to be struck against in all manners of war . The warriors are those who we've deemed terrorists, the propaganda spreaders are those who try to hide Islams message . There are those which consider theirselves moderates who try to spread that Islam is closely related to Christianity and Jewish beliefs . All in all it's a crock fed with a sugar coating of "peace" with the violent ones bypassing the propaganda and doing their duty of slaying and being slain .

Hi camrad.

Cheese .

I think Muslim, Middle eastern ,ect...freepers could help by giving insight. I have Arab friend who married into Jewish family and adopted Asian child.They never have both sets of inlaws to visit at the same time. They do not practice either religion. They tell me there is no way to deal with this issue. Also have friend who just barely made it out of Iran and he says forget it. I hope they are wrong.

You are to be commended for going against the grain and telling the truth about Islam! If everybody was as honest as you, I think that we would have already started to take care of this problem.

I for one welcome your presence and your perspective here as many of us struggle to come to terms with our understanding of Islam. I also would most welcome any other Muslim patriots to join us here.

Few, very few Muslims will speak out against other Moslims. Doesn't matter if millions of Americans are blown up. Doesn't matter if every American city is bombed. Muslims believe Christians and Jews are sinners and are destined to be destroyed. Don't believe me? Check out the Koran, their "holy" book...chapter 9 verses 29-31. chapt 17 verse 16. chapt 47 vs. 8-10...many other verses describe similar destruction for unbelievers of Islam. Muslims will die fighting for the Koran and its instructions to kill unbelievers. They will not speak out against other Muslims who are following it.

I remember your first tour here and that we had enjoyed a few 'conversations'. When anyone posted a "Whatever happened to?" thread.... I thought of you. On 9/11, I really thought of you and wished for your insight.

Looks like I got my wish. : )

I seem to remember lovely poems and tales, many of your own creation. (One about Noah stands out)

So pleased to see you again.

"They believe they are descended from Ishmael, son of Abraham. I had a frat bro who was a Lebanese Christian. He swore the Jews and Muslims were cut from the same cloth(literally). He reasoned that was why they fight so much."

There was a sturdy a couple of years ago that discovered that Arabs and Jews had near-identical DNA. They are much closer to each other than either group is to any other group. It's the ultimate Hattfields and McCoys feud.

There's a passage in Isiah (Chapter 24 or 25 IIRC) that says that at some point, they will finally be at peace, and form something of a union.

That said, I do find the "Jews are descended from Satan" tripe -- which they share (knowingly or not) with Christian Identity and other neo-nazis -- to be more than slightly troubling.

PS: if anyone thinks I'm making that DNA study up, it got a lot of coverage at the time, and a web search will bring up lots of documentation on it.

Also, I wanted to say that I feel that modern Islam in the Middle-East is Anti-American despite what Bush says. Have you heard of a major Islamic leader in the Middle-East say that Islam should not preach Anti-American hate messages, brainwashing children to aspire to martyrdom in a holy war with the U.S.? I have not.

Thanks for relating your experiences to us. This has been a real learning experience for most Americans. Prior to 9/11 I never imagined that Anti-American sentiment was so extensive and deep in the Middle East. I erroneously believed it was just bottled up in places like Iraq, Syria and Iran.

You can best fight the terrorists' agenda by uniting with your American brothers and sisters and condemning the monsters who did this.

He's been booted. He threatened my life, literally.

Gosh darn it, Laz. I was wondering what happened to 'Bert.
Please don't tell me that you're the silly woose who became emotionally traumatized by one of Bert's cantankerous rants. Surely you've been around here long enough to know that the old coot is harmless.

"You can throw that book away, it's trash. No muslim has any such notions. The Children of Israel and the children of Ishmael descended from Abraham who descended from Adam. We are all children of Adam, the devil is not a creature of flesh and blood and no muslim believes what you read."

I agree with everything you said except for the last part, unfortunately. Some really do seem to believe it.

BTW, are you familiar with Isaiah 19:18-25?

From http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=isa+19:23&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1 (emphasis added):

18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the Lord of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. 19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border. 20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. 21 Then the Lord will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. 22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the Lord, and He will be entreated by them and heal them. 23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. 24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria--a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."

You take the cheesecake! Your briellent observation slices through the propaganda war like a sharp knife through a block of Velveeta(tm).

Long live Cheese Whiz(tm) and AmericanCheeseFood.

"Surely you've been around here long enough to know that the old coot is harmless."

The problem with knowing if someone is truly harmless is that it's at heart an issue of "proving a negative."

+B was strange in that he'd often seem bright, cogent (and coherent), with a wry sense of humor and a working brain. Then without warning he'd hiss, wave his forked tongue, and flex his venom pits.

I always wondered if some of that depended on blood alcohol levels.

Then without warning he'd hiss, wave his forked tongue, and flex his venom pits.

Nah, I wouldn't say that it was "without warning".

'Bert had his hot buttons on a variety of issues.
And certain posters would intentionally push them.

The American Spectator: June 2001

"Natural Conservatives"

By Grover Norquist

George W. Bush was elected President of the United States of America because of the Muslim vote.

The what?

That's right, the Muslim vote.
read entire article at link

but I think Syria is a Arab nation.....

Think again, I believe Syria is about 50% Arab.

Incidentally, President Assad of Syria is NOT a Moslem

Life is more complicated than you think.

"Are There Any Muslim Freepers?

I'm harboring serious doubts."

I am not a Moslem, but my son has Moslem ancestry.

However, none of his relatives go to the mosque
except for weddings and funerals.

You might check out some of Storm Orphan's posts. He/She does a good job of pointing out the fallicy of painting all Muslims with the same brush.

Storm Orphan and some others -- ET(end tyranny) and Non-Sequitur immediately come to mind -- have been doing a tremendous job, and others are asking good questions. I came to Free Republic because people here tend to think for themselves, although of course there are still the peanut galleries of yahoos.

I'm not Muslim and all I know of Islam is what I have picked up over the years. I've had several direct questions put to me that I havn't been able to find answers for. If you happen to know of any good websites on the subject, please let me know.

Every partisan sect has a website, some quite elaborate, and altogether labyrinthine -- in four years on the Web I have not found any organizational websites to recommend. Here is a footnote from A Political Process for Muslim America that I did not include in the Thread:

By definition, the muslims are one community. This is so in the minds and hearts of muslims, if not in the world, to a greater degree than in any comparable group. There are several commonly accepted ritual foundations within the community, grounds of belief and practice, which distinguish without dividing; and broad tolerance of differences in political ideation, judicial policy, and conduct of public affairs. The result in the re-emergent historical muslim world is a complex diversity of regimes and contending parties; in America, the result is a party to match each regime and party abroad, and a corresponding multiplicity of approaches to participation in the political process. Many may be represented in a mosque community.

But at the same time, "He is not of us from whose tongue and hand his neighbor is not safe." We do cast off and forsake outlaws. When they are the government, and have been armed to the teeth by the U.S. government or the Soviets, and trained in secret police procedures by the Mossad, it's a bit more difficult.

The result is that most -- virtually all -- articulations of Islam that you will find on the Web are "colored" with the partisan view of the writers, and except in some writings from indigenous American muslims, the corrupted jurisprudence of the Abbasid Tyranny remains as a gloss over the preserved texts, producing the disfranchising view of Islam "understood" by the muslims that renders them powerless against imposed tyranny. In America, Islam is coming down like fresh rain, into a population accustomed to freedom and political participation -- which is partly why America is under deadly attack -- to eliminate us. Another footnote:

... This ideal is frustrated in practice, however, by several factors influential in the various social sectors.

First, the historical preponderance of muslims in America has been among immigrant groups, many of whom are multi-generational and well-situated, assimilated into American society from their immigrant forebears. As these communities have, for the most part, only recently established mosques and centers, and lack experience as a broader political religious community, they reflect the multiplicity of issues and approaches of the historical muslim world, together with the difficulties of conjoining matters of faith to the success they have attained on the more pragmatic basis of local constituency. There is a general relegation of any broader political leadership to muslim clerics and scholars, whose influence is circumscribed by a de facto separation of faith and politics both in the experience of the immediate community and in the more recent history of the traditional millennial muslim world. Thus the clerics and scholars have the means for discerning the issues and positions of concern to muslims, while the tools they have to effect public policy pertain to the religious legitimacy of muslim government and are thus inapplicable in the American political environment. Meanwhile, the multiplicity of approaches and issues arising from the diverse historical origins of their communities makes unification of effort on even one such issue virtually unattainable.

Second, the development of Islam among the indigenous American population, with a very few notable exceptions, has been hampered by the process of sorting out the many schismatic representations of Islam that have been imported. These communities, arising among the perennially disfranchised black populations of the industrial cities, have largely been led by fore-runners whose experience in the American political process has been either opportunistic or shaped by radical nationalism of one kind or another. Simultaneously, their experience with historically established muslims has been influenced both by prejudice and dismissal and by the activities of opportunists whose ambitions require "token" Americans, expendable fanatics, or a group receptive to their imported or experimental formulations of political Islam. Indigenous Islam is not situated like the many groups of assimilated immigrants, and the differences are profound and alienating.

Third, the growth of Islam in America is following a course that is unique in the history of Islam, which last experienced significant territorial spread centuries ago. The political fabric of America contains religious threads from every native and immigrant sector, which shaped the political environment and continue to influence it. Muslim in America may enter the political process directly, rather than after generations of slow growth and increasing organization and influence, and the resultant political expression reflects the nascent nature of the community as well as its manifold internal division, along with the disabilities of each.

Fourth, the banner of Islam in America is nothing if not contested. Political community is explicitly the nature of the muslim community, and is given at least lip service throughout the spectrum of diversity. Claims to the allegiance of the muslims are implicit in every rallying cry, and historically have precluded unity as a result of their conflicting ambitions and sectarian origins. There is no universally perceived community of interests and internecine struggle is the norm.

Finally, most Americans who have accepted Islam (as contrasted with those born to it) have done so for reasons of faith, without realization of the included political responsibility, or for reasons of politics, without realization of the absolutely religious character of muslim political activity. Thus the very population of muslims targeted by good manners for political leadership is more often either unprepared politically or unprepared religiously for the responsibility.

Muslim America disseminated this paper in 1992 to all the leaderships of muslim organizations in the United States, and received not one letter acknowledging that it had even been received. However, since then, there have been substantial changes in the political participation of muslims in America, and the 70% bloc vote for Bush is indicative that at least some muslims have applied themselves to resolving the dilemmas faced by muslims in a participatory democracy.

As to the websites mounted by parties from the millennial muslim world, here is another 1992 footnote:

The entirety of what is today set forth by muslims as Islam rests on a presumed but unrecorded universal agreement among muslims as to the meaning of the Qur'an; the words of the Prophet sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam; analogies drawn from the acts of the first generations; and unanimity of the earlier generations of muslims. These four sources of all contemporary muslim law were themselves each validated by the authority of 'Ijmaa', a thoroughly democratic ratification by universal agreement, alleged to have occurred, but not recorded, in the second muslim century.

This process reached its culmination in the third muslim century with the establishment of distinct systems of jurisprudence. By the fourth century the muslims had been effectively divorced from the conduct of their political affairs, their earlier active participation reserved to "the fore-runners" of the first three generations of muslims and to the rulers and clerics thereafter; and by the end of the fifth century, the voice of dissent had been stilled and its argument reduced to the hostile accounts of the new priestly classes.

What we see in the millennial muslim world is a thousand more years of this collapse, with imported radicalist ideologies injected wholesale throughout the colonialized regions. What we are doing -- have been doing for a couple of generations or more -- in America involves scraping off the historical accretions and returning to the fundamental texts, considered in the context of their revelation and articulation as the initiation of the Millennial Kingdom, a period of half a century. From the text (not a footnote):

Islamic Fundamentalism, a recurrent thread in muslim society since the beginning 1400 years ago, addresses this accretion and seeks to retain the Islam that existed from the beginning of the Revelation through the lives of the first four successors, a period of half a century.

This period is recorded and re-recorded in more extensive detail than any half-century before or since, the present notwithstanding; and it has been discussed and re-examined exhaustively throughout fourteen centuries of dedicated scholarship, of which is has been the central focus. It is safe to say that not all conclusions have been drawn that may be drawn from this historical cataclysm, which became suzerain in the space of the following century over most of the world now considered to have been civilized at the time, and persisted for a millennium as suzerain in successively degraded forms. Pax Islamica, however, was merely a by-product.

It is somewhat comparable to the first few picoseconds of nuclear detonation, which is over and done with prior to the expansion of the fireball: from this incandescent moment in history came also an academic imperative that directly produced those mathematical, physical, medical, astronomical and social sciences that underlie the entirety of modern civilization, with all of its social and technological achievement. And every community of faith has been rejuvenated by Islam.

It is this core of human liberation that is the nucleus of Islamic Fundamentalism.

Note that the Millennial Kingdom was known from Scripture to persist for a thousand years, transforming the entirety of the Holy Land and ushering in an era of peace, and then would collapse -- this all happened, we're faced with the enemies of truth that have slithered into and then up from the ruins.

We were told fourteen hundred years ago that the millennial muslim world would degenerate into ignorant worshippers and corrupt scholars. The best source of knowledge about Islam, however, is to go meet some of those "ignorant worshippers." Americans all over the country are doing exactly that. And the text of the Qur'an, and the knowledge that was revealed during that first half century, is known to most muslims for the most part -- it's the "sophisticated understanding" that has kept the muslims under the heels of their rulers for ages -- the sophistries of the Abbasid Tyranny -- that don't quite fit in a reasonable mind.

Tyranny doesn't make sense to Americans, either.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Bump for Camrad

serious question: do you believe as the qur'an teaches that Jesus was a prophet of God? thanks for your response. keep it brief if you would kindly, yes or no suffices.

We call him Kalimullah, The Word of God. We're expecting to see him back any day now.

Specifically, Jesus is God's Word that He cast into the virgin Mary in an immaculate conception untouched by the efforts of Satan, the Messiah of Israel accompanied by the Holy Spirit wherever he went, the only person ever to walk the earth without sin or error. He called the Children of Israel to fulfill their Covenant by announcing to the gentiles the Good News that He would next send the Messenger of the Eternal Covenant, known in Scripture as Shiloh, in Tema and Kedar as detailed in Scripture. Many of the Children of Israel responded to his call, and he sent seventy-two disciples to the nations who reached their destinations able to speak the language of the people to whom they were sent. The Temple hierarchy, however, conspired to discredit him by crucifying him -- for talking about those very portions of Scripture they had made it a capital crime to mention -- and thereafter by corrupting what remained of his message.

We read Scripture, too.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Seventy percent of America's muslims voted for Bush

How do you explain the ~ million African-American Muslim voters? Why are so many "relief agencies" tied to Muslim causes promoted and sponsored by the left? I see too many similarities in the hate and fear-mongering of "black leaders" in the inner cities (and Florida post 2000 election), the blame and lack of personal responsibility and the revenge mentality and method of recruitment of militant Muslims and groups like The Nation of Islam.

I remember your first tour here and that we had enjoyed a few 'conversations'. When anyone posted a "Whatever happened to?" thread.... I thought of you. On 9/11, I really thought of you and wished for your insight.

Last month -- August -- those behind the Red Worm took control of over a hundred thousand Windows 2000 machines running the Microsoft Internet Information Server, then left the remainder of five million machines for the script kiddies and the patchworks. Just after the Tuesday attack, the nimda worm purged the Win2K/IIS base of terrorists' zombies, eliminating the weaknesses in their army of hosts, by searching out every vulnerability known to those machines. I'm still waiting to see how this huge store of remotely-controlled machines on high-speed connections fits into the terror war. That's why it took me five days after the attacks to get back here.

I would not forget the warm welcome I received, as a complete stranger with stranger ideas, at Free Republic.

Looks like I got my wish. : )

I seem to remember lovely poems and tales, many of your own creation. (One about Noah stands out)

I don't recall writing about Noah, although that is a fascinating story of a mist-covered planet of long-lived hunters and gatherers, murderous among themselves, washed clean by a bit of rain. Maybe you're thinking of "Adam Our Father" -- which I should perhaps post again.

So pleased to see you again.

All I bring is a burden of responsibility. It is you and all of us at Free Republic who must keep America's hands clean of any more innocent blood.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Maybe you're thinking of "Adam Our Father"

Yes....I think there was 'mist' in that story as well...
(Which may explain my confusion)

-- which I should perhaps post again.

I would love to see it again.

You can best fight the terrorists' agenda by uniting with your American brothers and sisters and condemning the monsters who did this.

And how many million times does every muslim on the planet have to do this before our "free press" starts admitting to you that we've been doing precisely that for years? There are sure a lot of hypocrites in the woodwork.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Maybe you're thinking of "Adam Our Father"

Yes....I think there was 'mist' in that story as well... (Which may explain my confusion)

-- which I should perhaps post again.

I would love to see it again.

Adam Our Father

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Thank you very much for your post.

I'm glad you are on Free Republic. I've been reading a lot about Mohammed's teachings and the religion of Islam. I also went back and read what Jesus said.

I saw CNN's "Beneath The Veil" for the first time today and was shocked at the atrocities of the Taliban to the Afghan people. PBS has a 1995 special that talks about the Jihad roots in America.

A friend's friend is a Moslem student from Pakistan who converted to Christianity. His family disowned him. His mother said she should have killed him in her womb. His friends threatened to kill him. He is in hiding now.

The majority of Arabs in Michigan are Christian. I never knew that.

yes or no.

Yes or no

I've already answered your question quite clearly. You and I agree completely that when Jesus left, a Message from God remained. I believe you call it "The New Testament" or perhaps you read the red-letter edition and believe that the Message is there. Or do you deny this?

I believe Jesus will be along presently to inform us about that wherein we might differ. I'll wait for him, what you believe is entirely your choice.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

"Squares pretty well with the German experience. Hitler tried to hijack Christianity"

Big difference, Hitler never really liked Christianity or religion in general. That wasn't a holy war

Norquist's article was a damn interesting read. I wonder about the overwhelming figure of Muslim voters for Bush, considering the number of black Muslims.

I don't particularly care about whether "Muslims around the world," as you put it, stand by us. Truthfully, I don't exect them to. They despise us, and many of them even have a legitimate beef.

I feel differently about American Muslims, though. I expect more of them.

I think his handle was Anklechain. If that's not it, it's appropriate anyway.

I don't particularly care about whether "Muslims around the world," as you put it, stand by us.

I didn't say that. Here's the entire post:

You can best fight the terrorists' agenda by uniting with your American brothers and sisters and condemning the monsters who did this.

And how many million times does every muslim on the planet have to do this before our "free press" starts admitting to you that we've been doing precisely that for years? There are sure a lot of hypocrites in the woodwork.

Muslims all over the world have condemned all terrorism consistently. The internationally recognized authorities on Islamic Law have condemned the suicides in absolute terms, from the Law, repeatedly. There is not a grain of truth to either assertion, that "Islam supports suicide terrorism" or that "muslims have been silent" about it. It simply does not suit the agenda of our "free press" to tell us about the denunciations.

Go here to see some factual reporting about the Middle East. "The Washington Report is published by the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, DC by retired U.S. foreign service officers to provide the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states."

Truthfully, I don't expect them to. They despise us, and many of them even have a legitimate beef.

Many have been whipped into a frenzy by facts in Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, the Sudan, and elsewhere that are ignored by our "free press" -- and by radicals who have brought Marxist anti-colonialism to the disfranchised millennial muslim world from rather obviously non-muslim sources. Many imagine that the American people know what their government has been doing, and approve of it. No "legitimate beef" justifies the slaughter of innocents or attacks on non-combatants, and no teaching of Islam or belief of the muslims does either -- contrary to what our "free press" constantly drums into the American consciousness.

I feel differently about American Muslims, though. I expect more of them.

So do I. But I don't expect American muslims to be "apologetic" or "remorseful" over something muslims do not do, did not do, and reject completely, nor do I expect American muslims to recite some "loyalty oath" every time some suspicious paranoid ignoramus demands one.

Why are Americans so ignorant about a thousand years of recorded history that we call "The Dark Ages" and the beliefs and cultures of one fifth of the human race? Where is a claim of faith regarded as valid in our public education system (there is one such claim)? What could possibly create this huge gap in what we know as an educated and literate people? That's what Americans should be asking themselves, not "why don't muslims condemn this" when we all do and our "free press" is systematically suppressing that little fact.

[rant: off]

Yes, I expect a lot more of American muslims, and I expect a lot more American muslims. I would not be a bit surprised to learn that the number of American muslims had doubled since 9/11, the mosques are overwhelmed with visitors and the curious and interested, from coast to coast. The backlash intended by the terrorists has backfired. That says some pretty terrific things about the American people. Wonder why our "free press" isn't talking about that?

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Bloop, bloop, huhhhhhh? Nope.

Yes, I expect a lot more of American muslims, and I expect a lot more American muslims. I would not be a bit surprised to learn that the number of American muslims had doubled since 9/11, the mosques are overwhelmed with visitors and the curious and interested, from coast to coast. The backlash intended by the terrorists has backfired. That says some pretty terrific things about the American people.

Precisely. It has been amazing to see how many inquiries from seekers of light that have been coming in. The pathetic and frightened racists and religious bigots we see spewing on the various threads are a distinct minority in our nation and especially in the GOP. Even stratfor.com has noted the Americans of the Islamic faith contribution to the Bush victory in 2000. Americans of the Islamic faith are NATURAL CONSERVATIVES.
The American Spectator: June 2001

"Natural Conservatives"

By Grover Norquist

George W. Bush was elected President of the United States of America because of the Muslim vote.

The what?

That's right, the Muslim vote.
read entire article at link

Precisely. It has been amazing to see how many inquiries from seekers of light that have been coming in. The pathetic and frightened racists and religious bigots we see spewing on the various threads are a distinct minority in our nation and especially in the GOP.

LOL! But poor 'Abdul-Hameed really got cut up by all those "noble Freepers" who turn out to be crypto-[censored].

Here's a bit from A Political Process for Muslim America:

Neither does America qualify as an object of universal muslim animosity.

Americans are not the cynical, drunken, amoral libertines portrayed by the American media. Neither do they comprehend, nor are they complicit in, the foreign policies promoted against muslims by the Israeli Lobby and its associated freemasonry.

The priorities of Americans are nearly identical with those of muslims: stability, family, productivity, opportunity and toleration merely begin the list of truly shared values. The actual privileged class in America and in the muslim world is children, whose prospect for a better future is paramount. Unlike the Israeli Occupation of the Holy Land, neither Americans nor muslims attack their opponents' children, as an object lesson to expel parents or for any other reason.

Cooperation across lines of personal differences is also a hallmark of American society, which has united the energies of an eclectic populace in enhancing the quality of life for friend and foe alike. Feud, vendetta, and other perpetual animosities are abhorrent to Americans, who with rare exception remain prepared to resolve disputes and end conflict in favor of amity and a more profitable cooperation. This also is required of muslims by their faith, in explicit terms, and the muslims respond religiously.

Looks a touch conservative to me. Maybe that's why the Anti-Islam Brigades are so worried that Americans not read the Qur'an, but only their misquotes and mistranslations out of context. Let's see -- where did I put that paper that talked about "poisoning the body politic with liberal fantasies"?

The terrorists were attacking Americans as we are "portrayed by the American media." Maybe we should take a look at who's been portraying us that way around the world. Sure has misled a bunch of nutcases.

LOL! When light comes, darkness disappears.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

But I don't expect American muslims to be "apologetic" or "remorseful" over something muslims do not do, did not do, and reject completely, nor do I expect American muslims to recite some "loyalty oath" every time some suspicious paranoid ignoramus demands one.

Care to clarify this remark? If people of my faith had done such a dastardly deed, I would be denouncing them from the rooftops for having perverted the tenants of my faith--if that indeed were the case.

But I don't expect American muslims to be "apologetic" or "remorseful" over something muslims do not do, did not do, and reject completely, nor do I expect American muslims to recite some "loyalty oath" every time some suspicious paranoid ignoramus demands one.

Care to clarify this remark? If people of my faith had done such a dastardly deed, I would be denouncing them from the rooftops for having perverted the tenants of my faith--if that indeed were the case.

Muslims and muslim leaders all over the world have been denouncing the perpetrators of the Tuesday Terror from Day One. Our "free press" ignores this, it's "not-news" -- a special category of information that you and I need to be "protected" from to save our time for more important matters like Joyce's fling with Harry.

Muslim leaders denouncing terrorist atrocities doesn't sell newspapers.

And reporting it would cut off advertising revenues.

Were you shouting denunciations of Timothy McVeigh from the rooftops? Or are you not Christian?

There's a new jingle out there saying McVeigh was not Christian. That's bogus. I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest where the right-wing wackos make pilgrimages to Ruby Ridge, where the FBI murdered a man's son and wife and got clean away with it. These right-wing wackos say that they are the true inheritors of Israel, they are the true followers of Jesus Christ, and that you're all apostates and dupes of the mud people. That's their line, that's their belief, that's what they think.

So when you denounce them as "not Christians" should muslims return to you what you are now returning to me, that they are indeed Christians and you should be apologizing for what they do?

The terrorists were not muslims. Period. End of story. Find'em and kill'em all you want, please make sure we have the right people, I have enough innocent blood on my hands as a result of being born an American. The Afghanis, the Taliban (who are Afghanis, contrary to what you're being told), the muslims did not do that.

There's nothing to clarify other than the lies you're being told by our "free press." Systematically.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

If you notice, all the economies of countries that have an Islamic takeover of the government go way down.

any government based strickly on religion is going to be oppressive and is going to fail.

Were you shouting denunciations of Timothy McVeigh from the rooftops? Or are you not Christian? There's a new jingle out there saying McVeigh was not Christian. That's bogus. I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest where the right-wing wackos make pilgrimages to Ruby Ridge, where the FBI murdered a man's son and wife and got clean away with it. These right-wing wackos say that they are the true inheritors of Israel, they are the true followers of Jesus Christ, and that you're all apostates and dupes of the mud people. That's their line, that's their belief, that's what they think.

Let us stick to McVeigh, shall we? He was raised Roman Catholic but renounced his faith, and what he did was not motivated by Christianity. In fact, not until the morning of his death did he finally try to clean his slate by submiting to the sacraments. Nothing he said and did before that time indicates anything but a totally secular hatred of his government and a total indifference to the sufferings of his victims.

Thank you for your extensive reply.
You do a good job of explaining why I have had little luck at finding
online info about Islam that matches up with what I have read.
I hadn't thought about the possibility that an American Islam
community would pose a threat to the religious status quo and,
subsequently, be reason for a "cool" attitude toward American values.
Everything that I have read indicates that Islam is supposed to actually
encourage debate about the interpretation/application of the word.
It appears that the current state of the religion is similar to
what was/is going on with the Catholic church (for instance) which, particularly
in the past, did not encourage people to do more than follow their religious leaders.
(I'm NOT picking on the Catholics, most religions did not care much for the sheep
to question the shepherds...fortunatly that has been changing over the centuries.)

"In America, Islam is coming down like fresh rain, into a population accustomed to freedom
and political participation -- which is partly why America is under deadly attack -- to eliminate us.

As I have been given to understand, Islam is not supposed to HAVE
religous "leaders" -specifically to prevent this from happening.
Unfortunatly circumstances have created a tiny community of "haves"
and a large community of "have nots" in many of the predominantly
Muslim countries around the world.
That situation is taken advantage of by the "haves" as well as
the alphabet agencies and we end up with what we have now.

I've mentioned more than once that I would think that Islam itself
provides a way to deal with the current problems:
Show and convince the people that their religious leaders have been
deliberatly leading them astray and the problem would "resolve" itself.

All it takes is honesty and education.
Unfortunatly both are in short supply on both sides of the issue.

I have to go.
Will continue later.
Thank you again.

bump

I hadn't thought about the possibility that an American Islam community would pose a threat to the religious status quo and, subsequently, be reason for a "cool" attitude toward American values.

Social stability rests on presumptions, and a few of the presumptions underlying the terminally collapsed millennial muslim world arose as religious tyranny over a thousand years ago. In America, we received the fundamental ritual practices and the Arabic Qur'an, and struggled to learn enough Arabic to reach a sufficient understanding to form communities, and only later began to acquire the Hadith (incredibly voluminous and largely reliable reports of the words and actions of the Prophet and his companions), and then the scholastic glosses that imparted the tyranny to the institutions of empire. We did not start out with those malfeasances as presumptions.

There are, of course, plenty of American muslims who imbibed the tyrannical predispositions along with everything else, uncritically, written between the lines of the incredible flood of populist literature intended to "colonize" Muslim America to one or another foreign party. They have formed/joined the identical parties of contention found in the millennial muslim world, with -- of course -- uniquely American ingenuity adding further contentions. Although they become marginalized into seige mentalities and alienation from the surrounding society, it still all forms a bewildering intellectual environment much prone to emotional sensationalism and live social drama.

Everything that I have read indicates that Islam is supposed to actually encourage debate about the interpretation/application of the word.

The recited Book continually refers us to the "book" consisting of the natural world and the works -- and foibles -- of people.

It appears that the current state of the religion is similar to what was/is going on with the Catholic church (for instance) which, particularly in the past, did not encourage people to do more than follow their religious leaders.

The classical muslim world reached a conclusion several centuries ago that all possible questions had already been answered, and that any future determination would involve finding the appropriate precedent. Stare decisis and binding judicial precedent rang down the curtain on all forms of inquisitive approach to the received Message and its scholarly discussions, much darker than anything that the Dark Ages Catholic Church ever imposed on Europe. The "door to ijtihaad" -- independent judgment based on the source materials -- was only recently re-opened, somewhere in the last three centuries, but the heavy hand of history still weighs down the minds that would seek a fresh look.

And yes, in America we're taking that fresh look. This is certainly a factor in the choice of the terrorists to inspire a backlash against Muslim America, the privileged classes in the millennial muslim world have a heavily vested interest in the status quo of the calcified tyranny. Sovereign institutions do not look favorably upon their liberating replacements.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.