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Civilization Envy

News/Current Events News
Source: National Review Online
Posted on 09/28/2001 14:01:52 PDT by VinnyTex

Civilization Envy
On Muslims, Israel, and McDonald’s.

September 28, 2001 4:15 p.m.

 

Someone once noted that a "gaffe" in Washington is when a politician accidentally tells the truth. Thanks to globalization, this is a worldwide phenomenon.

A Reuters story this morning begins, "Muslims around the world today demanded an apology from Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and the European Union recoiled with horror after the Italian asserted that Western Civilization was superior to Islam."

The Arab League demanded an apology or an explicit denial that the Italian could have even said such a thing. The European Union, led by Belgium (stop laughing), acted as if someone had used his fingers to eat caviar. "I can hardly believe Mr. Berlusconi made such remarks," gasped Guy Verhofstadt, the Belgian prime minister.

Mr. Berlusconi told reporters in Berlin, "We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilization, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion."

"This respect certainly does not exist in Islamic countries," he asserted.

While critics have called his remarks "unacceptable," "barbaric," "silly," and — of course — "racist," I am at a loss to find a single untrue word in his remarks (meanwhile, how his comments can be "racist" is beyond me, since all "races" can be found within the Islamic world).

Now of course, this hasn't always been so. There was a time when the Muslim world was out in front in the race for human advancement, and there was an even longer period when the leader in that race was too close to call between the Islamic, European, and Chinese civilizations. But for right now, and for the foreseeable future, members and fans of Western Civilization have every right to wave the big foam "We're Number 1" finger as high as we want.

There's not a single category of enlightened governance in which the West broadly speaking isn't superior to the Islamic world — again, broadly speaking. Religious freedom, social mobility, and tolerance, the guarantee of rights and liberties in law, prosperity — you name it, and we beat the robes off them (though in family cohesion, they probably have the edge on us).

To disagree with this assessment would require us to throw out the very standards by which we judge our own society's shortcomings. For example, you can't say (as Jesse Jackson does all of the time) that the United States is racist or authoritarian or a police-state, and hold that Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, et al., aren't far worse, without being intellectually dishonest. You can't say that it's a crime that America "lets" so many of its people live in poverty, and then think that Saddam Hussein, with his dozens of palaces, is in some way a more enlightened leader. The same holds even for our "allies" Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

Even in the historical arena, the argument is not so cut-and-dried as the anti-Westerners would have us believe. After all, the Arabs are just as culpable for their participation in the slave trade as the West. What makes the West unique was not our involvement in slavery, but our insistence upon ending the institution, both at home and abroad.

Envious Islam

No, I'm beginning to believe that the central source of animus from the Arab world is, quite simply, envy.

Indeed, I've been reading a lot of books and articles about the Middle East lately (what? I do research sometimes), and I'm coming to the conclusion that this really doesn't have much to do with Israel after all. At first, like everybody else, I could hardly avoid the conclusion that the World Trade Center was related in some significant way to Israel. I never agreed with the folks who are always looking to peg any of these sorts of things on our support of Israel, but it seemed naïve to think that the Jewish state didn't have something to do with it (even though bin Laden's biggest gripe is the presence of our "crusader" armies on the Arabian peninsula — and they aren't there because of Israel, they're there to protect the flow of oil from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia).

Of course, even if the attack did result from our support for Israel, I wouldn't have agreed with those who say September 11th proves we should abandon Israel. After all, you can make enemies by having the right policies just as easily as you can from having the wrong ones — just ask all the cops who are hated just for being cops. We supported Afghani freedom fighters in order to defeat the Soviet Empire, and just because the Taliban is a harsh unintended consequence of that support, doesn't mean we should have held the door open for Soviet expansionism. Does it?

Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it (thanks to Andrew Sullivan for calling it to my attention).

Lewis shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe. Consider that when the Soviet Union was a bigger supporter of Israel than the U.S., the Arab world didn't turn their enmity upon the Russians for it. Nor did they praise America when we stood aloof from Israel's plight. The United States has no imperialist or colonial record that even compares to Britain's, France's, or Germany's, and yet we are denounced for our "imperialism" more than any other country. Indeed, the Russians ruled millions of Muslims, while the U.S. ruled virtually none. And yet the United States remains the bad guy above all others. Lewis suggests, with professional restraint, that this is because the Muslim world is jealous and resentful. Pure and simple.

Islamic culture, politics, and religion — which are far more conjoined than they are in the West — cannot reconcile with the fact that the West, led by America, is the lead dog on the sled of humanity. Israel may serve as a painful reminder of this superiority, but they will find something else to gripe about no matter what you do.

The Islamic world has a self-esteem problem.

Lewis gives a wonderful example. In 1979, a group of Muslim dissidents seized the Great Mosque in Mecca — "an event in which there was no American involvement whatsoever," Lewis writes — and an angry crowd in Islamabad, Pakistan, attacked and burned the American embassy in response.

This is the sort of thing individuals and even whole societies do when they feel they aren't getting the respect they deserve. Personally, it reminds me of our domestic race-mongers who are convinced that every American action or event has to do with race. It's an attempt to elevate your own status by picking an "opponent" of greater stature — even if that "opponent" doesn't spend a minute out of his year thinking about you. The deeper your sense of victimhood, and the more unfair the world is to you, the greater your claim to moral superiority.

Indeed, after September 11, claims to social martyrdom were invoked by Arab-American activists far more quickly than any denunciations of the assault. In that corner of the national conversation, the shrieks of outrage about discrimination against Muslims came fast and furious, while the fatwas against mass murder remained in their holsters.

But this attitude also reminds me, oddly enough, of the global assault on McDonald's, about which I've written a bunch. Around the world, McDonald's is attacked for all sorts of bizarre reasons, including ones that don't technically qualify as "anti-American." Depending where you go, Mickey D's haters may invoke the environment or animal rights, economics or religion. Indeed, protestors often prefer attacking McDonald's to attacking the local American Embassy.

While ideologues of all kinds see McDonald's as an enemy, McDonald's sees them only as potential customers. This conflict of visions alone may explain a lot of the problem. But from a broader perspective, the anger may be explained by the fact that McDonald's is a tangible signal that the world is going in a direction these people don't like. McDonald's is carried on the same wind as consumer culture generally, women's rights, economic freedom, and all sorts of other stuff, good and bad.

But one thing is certain: That wind blows from America. This arouses jealousies, inflates grievances, and fans resentments not based in fact. The problem is that even if you get rid of McDonald's, you do nothing to stop the wind. In this sense, Israel may just be like a giant McDonald's franchise in the Middle East — an infuriating reminder of the fact the Islamic world won't be calling the shots for a long time to come.

In fact, as Lewis argues better than I, this poses a real problem for both sides in the conflict of civilizations. If America is going to be resented for its success no matter what, there isn't much we can or should do to make them like us. All we can do is protect our own interests as best we can. And then wait for them to grow up.

Minor Memos
The decker (as we call the teasers for upcoming material) for this column said I would deal with Bill Maher as well as with the new Star Trek series, Enterprise. Well, like a Castro speech, I went too long again. So, I've posted my syndicated column on Bill Maher here on the site, in part because both www.townhall.com and the print edition of the Washington Times curiously chose not to run it. As for Enterprise, I've decided to write a full review for next week's National Review Weekend.




1 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:01:52 PDT by VinnyTex
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To: VinnyTex

Bump

2 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:12:33 PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VinnyTex

Bump!

3 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:12:56 PDT by SarahW
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To: VinnyTex

BUMP!!! Great truth in this article!!!

4 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:16:37 PDT by AgThorn
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To: VinnyTex

Thanks, this is a really good piece.

5 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:31:06 PDT by TheFilter
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To: VinnyTex

Another bump.

6 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:41:03 PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VinnyTex

Islamic culture, politics, and religion — which are far more conjoined than they are in the West — cannot reconcile with the fact that the West, led by America, is the lead dog on the sled of humanity.

The demons claim that they are fighting "Western decadence".

Perhaps we should oblige them after the bombs fall, and not infect their sacred culture with such decadent, materialist items like bandages and antibiotics, created in the Sewer of Capitalism.

7 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:47:53 PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: sinkspur

.

8 Posted on 09/28/2001 14:48:33 PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: VinnyTex

Excellent. Another bump

9 Posted on 09/28/2001 15:22:18 PDT by Bob Burnett
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To: VinnyTex

....the central source of animus from the Arab world is, quite simply, envy.

Yup. I've believed this for a long time. As one of the mechanics at the local Harley shop said, they hate us because "We're big, we're powerful, we're rich, we're good looking and we get all the girls"

It's the equivalent of the highschool freshman mascot slashing the tires of the varsity quarterback's car. That is, same motivation, just as childish but of course deadly.

10 Posted on 09/28/2001 15:48:47 PDT by A1/92FA'68
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To: Senator Pardek Askel5

Yea.

I see where Bush just released aid money for Afghan refugees.

We're a decadent bunch, we are.

11 Posted on 09/28/2001 15:59:02 PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur

I'd be interested to know how our aid money for refugees stacks up against the monies we invested in Osama during the Soviet invasion.

12 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:07:05 PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5

I'd be interested to know how our aid money for refugees stacks up against the monies we invested in Osama during the Soviet invasion.

Who cares?

Osama's going to be just as dead as the Soviet Union, in very short order.

13 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:11:56 PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur

Yeah right.

We'll see about that.

14 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:16:23 PDT by Askel5
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To: sinkspur

as dead as the Soviet Union

That dead, eh?

God help us.

15 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:16:56 PDT by Askel5
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To: VinnyTex

The Islamic world has a self-esteem problem... This is the sort of thing individuals and even whole societies do when they feel they aren't getting the respect they deserve.

What is this? Oprah does foreign affairs analysis?

Depicting the terrorist supporters in the Islamic world as children in need of self-esteem classes may make for good war propaganda in this therapeutic age, but we'd be fools to believe it.

16 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:20:35 PDT by Dumb_Ox
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To: Askel5

Not nearly as much as we "invested" in the Soviets in the early '40s, and look what we got from that.

Oh yeah, don't tell me - WWII was an "Unjust War".

My favorite mixed metaphor is as follows: "Monday morning quaterbacks always have 20/20 vision".

17 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:27:35 PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: VinnyTex

We also get to enjoy all those delicious pork products.

A decadent woof.


18 Posted on 09/28/2001 16:41:05 PDT by MrBambaLaMamba (L.D.M.I.W.S. cavaliers@dare_to_speak.com)
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To: Senator Pardek

Not nearly as much as we "invested" in the Soviets in the early '40s, and look what we got from that

What did we get from that? I'm curious.

19 Posted on 09/28/2001 17:21:07 PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5

Well, we teamed up with those who we knew were bad guys (USSR/Bin Laden) to fight a more immediate threat (Nazis/USSR).

No serious person claims that we should not have fought with the Soviets against Germany because it made the Soviets, in the long run, stronger.

20 Posted on 09/28/2001 17:29:36 PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: VinnyTex

Supposedly the diners at a McDonald's in Lebanon cheered on the terrorists. I don't know if it's true, or just another wild rumor of war, but it should give Jonah something to think about.

We are a great country. Just between you and me, the Western Culture of today is better than the current Near Eastern culture and Christianity is better than Islam. But keep that under your hat for now. There's no point in needlessly antagonizing or embarassing people.

What troubles me about Jonah is the desire to reduce everything to sameness. Maybe it's not so evident in this particular piece, but it seems to be an undercurrent in his work and in the new National Review. Everything is to be levelled down and forced into the form of McDonald's, Star Trek and the Goldberg File. I find things to like about all three, but I certainly wouldn't like it if everyone had the same tastes, desires, or beliefs.

Just between you and me again: that world of mass consumption, mass culture and global corporations has as little use for Christian Middle America has it does for any minority that wants to preserve its own culture. That brave new world has already detached itself from roots in America or loyalty to it. The global market has become too big and too autonomous.

When people go to war to remake or reform or save the world, often it's not their own values that triumph, but rather those of the managerial apparatus or the elites that call the shots. Get the terrorists and make them pay. Make them suffer. But be wary of trying to remake the world. You may be surprised at what that will mean.

21 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:04:18 PDT by x
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To: x

Just between you and me again: that world of mass consumption, mass culture and global corporations has as little use for Christian Middle America has it does for any minority that wants to preserve its own culture. That brave new world has already detached itself from roots in America or loyalty to it. The global market has become too big and too autonomous.

I hope every Christian realizes this.

22 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:08:03 PDT by independentmind
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To: x

I don't think anyone wants to remake the world. But markets are here and can't be stopped... The internet is the great satan to these people..

23 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:18:55 PDT by VinnyTex
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To: VinnyTex

Bang on. Of course, envy makes the world go around. Envy accounts for almost everything. Any attempt to explain human relationships, society, morality and politics which fails to take that into account is doomed at the outset.

24 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:20:53 PDT by Clinton's a rapist
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To: VinnyTex

I think the problem is that with the levelling of secular mass culture, PC ideology, liberalism, the hastening decline of Christianity, and near universal bad taste , many Americans have forgotten that there is a distinction between civilized Christians and pirates and barbarians. To get technical about it, Bill Clinton, Bill Maher, Geraldo, and the others are already in the barbaric dimension of that comparison.

All you have to do is look at the pictures of the hijackers. If you don't feel an immediate visceral aversion, well...

25 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:27:59 PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: VinnyTex

A great deal of the motivation of the terrorists and of the "jihad" Muslims in general is self-loathing. They know Western civilization is better, cleaner, more hygienic,more sophisticated, etc. They hate themselves and they hate us for making them see their inferiority and barbarism. It's a little in the order of a Mark David Chapman type, the John Lennon psycho-killer. He envied Lennon and hated that he could not be his pop ideal. So he lashed out at the source of his own problem - the image causing his self-loathing and discomfort. All of these guys were losers, most likely with homosexual tendencies, and deep personal anxiety.

26 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:35:50 PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

The Arabs remind me of a bunch of spoiled children kicking and screaming in rage at Big Daddy - US --- because we get to whip their ass when they misbehave. And our size and power infuriates them to the point of frenzy and makes them hate us even more. I don't think any one doubts religion is a factor but I think the real answer is these people have a state of arrested development and when they look at how far we have come and compare their lot with ours they can't figure out what the secret of our success is. Its obvious for every one to see but for the Arabs rather than try to work hard to get to where we are they have this attitude of entitlement like they expect everything to be handed to them on a platter with no questions asked. When they don't get what they demand they lash out in a fit of deadly rage. Simple. The people over there need to grow up and become responsible adults.

27 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:46:24 PDT by goldstategop
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To: VinnyTex ankaboot English Rose

When I was shopping in the blast furnace called the UAE, I noticed a lot of people driving white Chevy Surburbans. I asked why, and a local man told me they have 2 Air Conditioners.

He said, "America makes these things, but they did it on the sweat of our backs!"

OK.

28 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:46:59 PDT by SkyPilot
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To: VinnyTex

thanks for your article i agree with the italian premier,look at any muslim country all you find is corruption poverty and poor treatment of women,mike

29 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:53:41 PDT by mike2246
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To: Senator Pardek

They are all afraid of women, any women. Why else would they mutilate, castrate, and hid the faces of their wives, children and mothers?

30 Posted on 09/28/2001 18:58:02 PDT by Podkayne
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To: VinnyTex

The Islamic world has a self-esteem problem.

Man, DO they EVER.

While they have had a glorious and productive past, delivering wonderful science to the west 1000 years ago, their best invention for the last 100 years is largely strapping TNT all over themselves and blowing themselves up with the nearest person they have a quarrel with. THAT'LL show them!

And the lead sled dog analogy is perfect. The game of "king of the mountain" is an institutionalized part of the religion in the ME. And I think that's what this all boils down to. They just can't stand ANYONE else leading the global pack. Otherwise, they'd use all that cultural intellegence to partner in with us and take up their share of the world, rather than kill themselves just because they cant claw themselves to the lead of a 21st century world with a fifth century culture.


31 Posted on 09/28/2001 19:10:15 PDT by Coyote
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To: goldstategop

Yeah. There is an Oedipal aspect not just to terrorism but to other forms of political behavior and ideological radicalism, gnosticism, etc. The U.S. represents "authority." It is the "bad father" in psychological terms. Just as many criminals grew up fatherless, it should come as no surprise that the Taliban grew out of orphan refugee camps in Pakistan. Charles Manson was a similar type. I recommend the book Faith of the Fatherless. We're dealing with a psycho criminal element among low castes in Islamic countries. The absurd 7th-century theology is just a veneer for other pathologies.

32 Posted on 09/28/2001 19:13:31 PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: x

What troubles me about Jonah is the desire to reduce everything to sameness.

The word "decultured" comes to mind. Most disingenuous about Mr. Goldberg's article is his representation that the Atlantic article makes the case for "envy" when in fact it does not. A quote:

What is truly evil and unacceptable is the domination of infidels over true believers. For true believers to rule misbelievers is proper and natural, since this provides for the maintenance of the holy law, and gives the misbelievers both the opportunity and the incentive to embrace the true faith. But for misbelievers to rule over true believers is blasphemous and unnatural, since it leads to the corruption of religion and morality in society, and to the flouting or even the abrogation of God's law.
For certain forms of Islam, Jihad is a way to protect its culture from the seductive American Pimp, and restore true Islam to secularized or occupied areas of the Islamic world. There's no need to adduce questionable psychological motives, when one can more easily claim that these people are simply acting out of self-defense and self-conviction.
33 Posted on 09/29/2001 00:05:08 PDT by Dumb_Ox
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To: SkyPilot

When I was shopping in the blast furnace called the UAE, I noticed a lot of people driving white Chevy Surburbans. I asked why, and a local man told me they have 2 Air Conditioners.

He said, "America makes these things, but they did it on the sweat of our backs!"

Well sure, why else would a running dog imperialist capitalist swine send two air conditioners to a rag-head sand nigger male chauvinist pig, but to get rid of all that smelly sweat off his back?

OK.

I don't know, I sort of envy them the Empty Quarter -- miles and miles of empty sand and not one idiot anywhere in sight all day long. Besides, I'm driving a dark steel grey Camry with only one air conditioner. Obviously I'm culturally deprived.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.


34 Posted on 09/29/2001 00:51:47 PDT by ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
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To: VinnyTex

A good find, and one that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for posting.

35 Posted on 09/29/2001 08:26:28 PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: VinnyTex

An apropos joke.

First some background. There is an old Russian saying that an unwelcome guest is worse than a Tartar. The Tartars demanded a change, so the saying now should read "An unwelcome guest is better than a Tartar".

36 Posted on 09/29/2001 09:14:57 PDT by madrussian
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To: ankaboot

Hey ... where have you been?

Are you familiar with "Reading the Muslim Mind" by Hassan Hathout?

I'm going to make some posts from it and would love your input.


37 Posted on 09/30/2001 21:35:14 PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5

Hey ... where have you been?

Heh heh ...

Waiting for the Antichrist
Islam the Straight Path to God
Guide to Events
Message from the Muslim Community
A Political Process for Muslim America
"What I expect from American Muslims"
"Here may be our problem with Islam"
Position of US National Muslim Organizations
Taliban Leader summons religious scholars
US Rejects Afghan Clerics' Ruling on Bin Laden
FBI Obtains Terrorist E-Mails
Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon
A Principled Opponent
A Serious Islam Question
Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void
"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East
China's Role in Osama Bin Laden's "Holy War"
A Moment For Truth
Mr. Sharon's obduracy endangers Israel
Islam 610 AD - Present: The Endless Jihad
One nation, under Islam
five-page handwritten document found
Taliban asks bin Laden to leave country
Delusions Of Grandeur
The Sanitation of Islam
Confusion over FBI's hijacker list
The plight of Muslims
"Extreme" CAIR?
ODIGO Says Workers Warned
Far Gone In 30 Seconds
Arab Ministers Denounce "Attacks," Anti-Arab Campaign
What Muslim Would Write: 'The time of fun ...
Are There Any Muslim Freepers?
Adam Our Father

Just couldn't resist the opportunity.

Are you familiar with "Reading the Muslim Mind" by Hassan Hathout?

I wasn't aware that he had permission to do that, actually. I think some restrictions apply. I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what people think, certainly not when what they say is ample indication that I don't want to know more.

I'm going to make some posts from it and would love your input.

I don't know, I'm suffering from civilization envy. The Spokane Indian Tribe just south of here is ready to get snowed in for the winter and not have to pay any attention to the long knives and their forked tongues from November until April. Meanwhile, I'm stuck here with my PIII/500 horses dragging me all over creation on this Web full of critters made of smokeless fire ("electricity" as it's known to the locals who certainly don't understand it) and my aluminum foil fez. I'd much rather be in a teepee stocked with food and wood for the winter.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.


38 Posted on 09/30/2001 23:35:53 PDT by ankaboot
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To: Askel5

You've found a soul-mate, at last. How charming.

39 Posted on 09/30/2001 23:39:38 PDT by Clinton's a rapist
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To: Clinton's a rapist

Listen, more than a few are of the opinion you ought to be yanked for what you said last night. I myself hate to ruin a good thread by having Jim pull it just because a moron like yourself couldn't resist displaying for all what a hateful person you are.

However, if you're going to follow me around making stupid comments, I may have to rethink that and perhaps alert the moderators to the fact you've finally shown your true colors and really have no business posting here.

Your choice.


40 Posted on 10/01/2001 06:56:04 PDT by Askel5
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To: ankaboot

Lol ... fair enough. I guess I've been in my own world, as usual, and just hadn't seen you show up there.

(It's a bear trying to wade through latest posts or latest articles, anymore. I'll just add you to my home page, then.)

Granted, there's plenty on which we disagree but the book is written in love and is very illuminating in many respects ... both as to Islam and as to those points at which "radical Islam" could be tapped by those with an agenda they can fulfill USING Muslims ... just as they are mighty good at USING Christians to fulfill same in places like Latin America or Catholic Universities.

I'll flag you when I post so you can weigh in. Way back in "Limbo" days, I always found you both thoughtful and thought-provoking.

Best regards.


41 Posted on 10/01/2001 07:00:35 PDT by Askel5
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To: ankaboot

P.S. I also plan to make some pro-life posts using the Muslim arguments as set forth by Hathout in an effort to help those around here who are hopelessly confused by scientific semantics and the meaning of "IS".

42 Posted on 10/01/2001 07:02:37 PDT by Askel5
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To: VinnyTex

I love this article!

43 Posted on 10/01/2001 07:02:53 PDT by Howlin
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To: Dumb_Ox

Would you have even heard of the Atlantic Magazine article if it weren't for Jonah's piece in NRO? I wouldn't have.

FWIW, I printed the Atlantic piece out and have saved it as a reference work to compare against current and future events. I think one can make a case that the article posits, amongst other reasons, that "envy" is a driving factor in Muslim rage.


44 Posted on 10/01/2001 07:20:37 PDT by borkrules
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To: VinnyTex

The author speaks like a typical Westerner. There was never at time when Islam was at the forefront of social or cultural development. The vaunted Islamic culture of the middle ages was stolen from the Roman Empire (during the Christian phase Westerners like to call the "Byzantine Empire" to deny its continuity with the Roman Empire). Until it was extinguished by Islam, the Empire and its capital Constantinople, The City, it was usually called, were the beacon of social and cultural development for the whole world.

Barbarous folk, Vikings, as-yet-unChristianized Bulgars, Avars, Crusaders and Muslims all flocked to Constantinople as moths to a candle, until weakened by the Crusaders it fell to the Ottoman Turks. The City was a haven to Saxon exiles from the Norman conquest, had tolerant policies toward religious minorities more generous than the dhimmitude offered by Islam, had hospitals, a university, homes for the aged, the poor, and for reformed prostitutes. The arts flourished, for contrary to what Western art historian taught, classical knowledge of perspective and form were preserved in the secular art of the Empire. Indeed, the stylized forms of iconography could not exist without a knowledge of perspective, and the deliberate choice to send a spiritual message by reversing perspective so that the viewer is the vanishing point, and that which is beyond the icon, visually the background, but noetically the spiritual realm to which the icon points is larger. It is from the Empire that both the Muslims and the Western rennaisance derived their knowledge of classical antiquity. The Muslims did not preserve classical antiquity, rather they destroyed its last outpost.

The only significant contributions Islamic culture gave to the world are some poetry (mostly by authors whose sect of Islam was persecuted by the main body of Islam), some non-representational art and algebra. Even the latter is simply the result of having a very smart man who saw how to put the numeration system stolen from the Hindus together with the knowledge of Diophantine equations lifted from the Christian Roman Empire.


45 Posted on 10/01/2001 09:04:11 PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David

The Muslims did not preserve classical antiquity, rather they destroyed its last outpost.

Nonsense. Heraclius' successors threw the legions at the muslims, who chewed them up and spit them out, until there was no Byzantium -- no slave trade, no trade routes, only the Dark Ages, into which soap, glass, plumbing, reading, pharmacy, and a few other amenities gradually made their way from Muslim Spain and along with returning Crusaders.

Excerpted from The Miracle of Islamic Science by Dr. K. Ajram, ©1992

The concept that the sciences are exclusively the products of Western minds remains unquestioned by most individuals. A review of any of the standard texts or encyclopedias regarding the history of science would support this view. As these books are perused, it becomes evident that the only contributors given significant mention are Europeans and/or Americans. It is hardly necessary to repeat the oft-mentioned names: Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Da Vinci, Benjamin Franklin, etc. The unavoidable conclusion is that major contributions to the development of the modern sciences by other cultures is minimal. Most texts give little or no mention of the advancements made by ancient Indian, Chinese or, particularly, Muslim scholars.

Western civilization has made invaluable contributions to the development of the sciences. However, so have numerous other cultures. Unfortunately, Westerners have long been credited with discoveries made many centuries before by Islamic scholars. Thus, many of the basic sciences were invented by non-Europeans. For instance, George Sarton states that modern Western medicine did not originate from Europe and that it actually arose from the (Islamic) orient.

The data in this section concerning dates, names and topics of Western advances has been derived from three main sources: World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopaedia Britannica and Isaac Asimov's 700 page book, Chronology of Science and Discovery. Supportive data for the accomplishments of Islamic scholars is derived from the miscellaneous references listed in the bibliography of this book.

What is Taught: The first mention of man in flight was by Roger Bacon, who drew a flying apparatus. Leonardo da Vinci also conceived of airborne transport and drew several prototypes.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain invented, constructed and tested a flying machine in the 800's A.D. Roger Bacon learned of flying machines from Arabic references to Ibn Firnas' machine. The latter's invention antedates Bacon by 500 years and Da Vinci by some 700 years.

What is Taught: Glass mirrors were first produced in 1291 in Venice.

What Should be Taught: Glass mirrors were in use in Islamic Spain as early as the 11th century. The Venetians learned of the art of fine glass production from Syrian artisans during the 9th and 10th centuries.

What is Taught: Until the 14th century, the only type of clock available was the water clock. In 1335, a large mechanical clock was erected in Milan, Italy. This was possibly the first weight-driven clock.

What Should be Taught: A variety of mechanical clocks were produced by Spanish Muslim engineers, both large and small, and this knowledge was transmitted to Europe through Latin translations of Islamic books on mechanics. These clocks were weight-driven. Designs and illustrations of epi-cyclic and segmental gears were provided. One such clock included a mercury escapement. The latter type was directly copied by Europeans during the 15th century. In addition, during the 9th century, Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain, according to Will Durant, invented a watch-like device which kept accurate time. The Muslims also constructed a variety of highly accurate astronomical clocks for use in their observatories.

What is Taught: In the 17th century, the pendulum was developed by Galileo during his teenage years. He noticed a chandelier swaying as it was being blown by the wind. As a result, he went home and invented the pendulum.

What Should be Taught: The pendulum was discovered by Ibn Yunus al-Masri during the 10th century, who was the first to study and document its oscillatory motion. Its value for use in clocks was introduced by Muslim physicists during the 15th century.

What is Taught: Movable type and the printing press was invented in the West by Johannes Gutenberg of Germany during the 15th century.

What Should be Taught: In 1454, Gutenberg developed the most sophisticated printing press of the Middle Ages. However, movable brass type was in use in Islamic Spain 100 years prior, and that is where the West's first printing devices were made.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton's 17th century study of lenses, light and prisms forms the foundation of the modern science of optics.

What Should be Taught: In the 1lth century al-Haytham determined virtually everything that Newton advanced regarding optics centuries prior and is regarded by numerous authorities as the "founder of optics. " There is little doubt that Newton was influenced by him. Al-Haytham was the most quoted physicist of the Middle Ages. His works were utilized and quoted by a greater number of European scholars during the 16th and 17th centuries than those of Newton and Galileo combined.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, discovered that white light consists of various rays of colored light.

What Should be Taught: This discovery was made in its entirety by al-Haytham (1lth century) and Kamal ad-Din (14th century). Newton did make original discoveries, but this was not one of them.

What is Taught: The concept of the finite nature of matter was first introduced by Antione Lavoisier during the 18th century. He discovered that, although matter may change its form or shape, its mass always remains the same. Thus, for instance, if water is heated to steam, if salt is dissolved in water or if a piece of wood is burned to ashes, the total mass remains unchanged.

What Should be Taught: The principles of this discovery were elaborated centuries before by Islamic Persia's great scholar, al-Biruni (d. 1050). Lavoisier was a disciple of the Muslim chemists and physicists and referred to their books frequently.

What is Taught: The Greeks were the developers of trigonometry.

What Should be Taught: Trigonometry remained largely a theoretical science among the Greeks. It was developed to a level of modern perfection by Muslim scholars, although the weight of the credit must be given to al-Battani. The words describing the basic functions of this science, sine, cosine and tangent, are all derived from Arabic terms. Thus, original contributions by the Greeks in trigonometry were minimal.

What is Taught: The use of decimal fractions in mathematics was first developed by a Dutchman, Simon Stevin, in 1589. He helped advance the mathematical sciences by replacing the cumbersome fractions, for instance, 1/2, with decimal fractions, for example, 0.5.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians were the first to utilize decimals instead of fractions on a large scale. Al-Kashi's book, Key to Arithmetic, was written at the beginning of the 15th century and was the stimulus for the systematic application of decimals to whole numbers and fractions thereof. It is highly probably that Stevin imported the idea to Europe from al-Kashi's work.

What is Taught: The first man to utilize algebraic symbols was the French mathematician, Francois Vieta. In 1591, he wrote an algebra book describing equations with letters such as the now familiar x and y's. Asimov says that this discovery had an impact similar to the progression from Roman numerals to Arabic numbers.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians, the inventors of algebra, introduced the concept of using letters for unknown variables in equations as early as the 9th century A.D. Through this system, they solved a variety of complex equations, including quadratic and cubic equations. They used symbols to develop and perfect the binomial theorem.

What is Taught: The difficult cubic equations (x to the third power) remained unsolved until the 16th century when Niccolo Tartaglia, an Italian mathematician, solved them.

What Should be Taught: Cubic equations as well as numerous equations of even higher degrees were solved with ease by Muslim mathematicians as early as the 10th century.

What is Taught: The concept that numbers could be less than zero, that is negative numbers, was unknown until 1545 when Geronimo Cardano introduced the idea.

What Should he Taught: Muslim mathematicians introduced negative numbers for use in a variety of arithmetic functions at least 400 years prior to Cardano.

What is Taught: In 1614, John Napier invented logarithms and logarithmic tables.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians invented logarithms and produced logarithmic tables several centuries prior. Such tables were common in the Islamic world as early as the 13th century.

What is Taught: During the 17th century Rene Descartes made the discovery that algebra could be used to solve geometrical problems. By this, he greatly advanced the science of geometry.

What Should be Taught: Mathematicians of the Islamic Empire accomplished precisely this as early as the 9th century A.D. Thabit bin Qurrah was the first to do so, and he was followed by Abu'l Wafa, whose 10th century book utilized algebra to advance geometry into an exact and simplified science.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, developed the binomial theorem, which is a crucial component for the study of algebra.

What Should be Taught: Hundreds of Muslim mathematicians utilized and perfected the binomial theorem. They initiated its use for the systematic solution of algebraic problems during the 10th century (or prior).

What is Taught: No improvement had been made in the astronomy of the ancients during the Middle Ages regarding the motion of planets until the 13th century. Then Alphonso the Wise of Castile (Middle Spain) invented the Aphonsine Tables, which were more accurate than Ptolemy's.

What Should be Taught: Muslim astronomers made numerous improvements upon Ptolemy's findings as early as the 9th century. They were the first astronomers to dispute his archaic ideas. In their critic of the Greeks, they synthesized proof that the sun is the center of the solar system and that the orbits of the earth and other planets might be elliptical. They produced hundreds of highly accurate astronomical tables and star charts. Many of their calculations are so precise that they are regarded as contemporary. The Alphonsine Tables are little more than copies of works on astronomy transmitted to Europe via Islamic Spain, i.e. the Toledo Tables.

What is Taught: The English scholar Roger Bacon (d. 1292) first mentioned glass lenses for improving vision. At nearly the same time, eyeglasses could be found in use both in China and Europe.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain invented eyeglasses during the 9th century, and they were manufactured and sold throughout Spain for over two centuries. Any mention of eyeglasses by Roger Bacon was simply a regurgitation of the work of al-Haytham (d. 1039), whose research Bacon frequently referred to.

What is Taught: Gunpowder was developed in the Western world as a result of Roger Bacon's work in 1242. The first usage of gunpowder in weapons was when the Chinese fired it from bamboo shoots in attempt to frighten Mongol conquerors. They produced it by adding sulfur and charcoal to saltpeter.

What Should be Taught: The Chinese developed saltpeter for use in fireworks and knew of no tactical military use for gunpowder, nor did they invent its formula. Research by Reinuad and Fave have clearly shown that gunpowder was formulated initially by Muslim chemists. Further, these historians claim that the Muslims developed the first fire-arms. Notably, Muslim armies used grenades and other weapons in their defence of Algericus against the Franks during the 14th century. Jean Mathes indicates that the Muslim rulers had stock-piles of grenades, rifles, crude cannons, incendiary devices, sulfur bombs and pistols decades before such devices were used in Europe. The first mention of a cannon was in an Arabic text around 1300 A.D. Roger Bacon learned of the formula for gunpowder from Latin translations of Arabic books. He brought forth nothing original in this regard.

What is Taught: The compass was invented by the Chinese who may have been the first to use it for navigational purposes sometime between 1000 and 1100 A.D. The earliest reference to its use in navigation was by the Englishman, Alexander Neckam (1157-1217).

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers and navigators learned of the magnetic needle, possibly from the Chinese, and were the first to use magnetic needles in navigation. They invented the compass and passed the knowledge of its use in navigation to the West. European navigators relied on Muslim pilots and their instruments when exploring unknown territories. Gustav Le Bon claims that the magnetic needle and compass were entirely invented by the Muslims and that the Chinese had little to do with it. Neckam, as well as the Chinese, probably learned of it from Muslim traders. It is noteworthy that the Chinese improved their navigational expertise after they began interacting with the Muslims during the 8th century.

What is Taught: The first man to classify the races was the German Johann F. Blumenbach, who divided mankind into white, yellow, brown, black and red peoples.

What Should be Taught: Muslim scholars of the 9th through 14th centuries invented the science of ethnography. A number of Muslim geographers classified the races, writing detailed explanations of their unique cultural habits and physical appearances. They wrote thousands of pages on this subject. Blumenbach's works were insignificant in comparison.

What is Taught: The science of geography was revived during the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries when the ancient works of Ptolemy were discovered. The Crusades and the Portuguese/Spanish expeditions also contributed to this reawakening. The first scientifically-based treatise on geography were produced during this period by Europe's scholars.

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers produced untold volumes of books on the geography of Africa, Asia, India, China and the Indies during the 8th through 15th centuries. These writings included the world's first geographical encyclopedias, almanacs and road maps. Ibn Battutah's 14th century masterpieces provide a detailed view of the geography of the ancient world. The Muslim geographers of the 10th through 15th centuries far exceeded the output by Europeans regarding the geography of these regions well into the 18th century. The Crusades led to the destruction of educational institutions, their scholars and books. They brought nothing substantive regarding geography to the Western world.

What is Taught: Robert Boyle, in the 17th century, originated the science of chemistry.

What Should be Taught: A variety of Muslim chemists, including ar-Razi, al-Jabr, al-Biruni and al-Kindi, performed scientific experiments in chemistry some 700 years prior to Boyle. Durant writes that the Muslims introduced the experimental method to this science. Humboldt regards the Muslims as the founders of chemistry.

What is Taught: Leonardo da Vinci (16th century) fathered the science of geology when he noted that fossils found on mountains indicated a watery origin of the earth.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (1lth century) made precisely this observation and added much to it, including a huge book on geology, hundreds of years before Da Vinci was born. Ibn Sina noted this as well (see pages 100-101). it is probable that Da Vinci first learned of this concept from Latin translations of Islamic books. He added nothing original to their findings.

What is Taught: The first mention of the geological formation of valleys was in 1756, when Nicolas Desmarest proposed that they were formed over a long periods of time by streams.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Sina and al-Biruni made precisely this discovery during the 11th century (see pages 102 and 103), fully 700 years prior to Desmarest.

What is Taught: Galileo (17th century) was the world's first great experimenter.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (d. 1050) was the world's first great experimenter. He wrote over 200 books, many of which discuss his precise experiments. His literary output in the sciences amounts to some 13,000 pages, far exceeding that written by Galileo or, for that matter, Galileo and Newton combined.

What is Taught: The Italian Giovanni Morgagni is regarded as the father of pathology because he was the first to correctly describe the nature of disease.

What Should be Taught: Islam's surgeons were the first pathologists. They fully realized the nature of disease and described a variety of diseases to modern detail. Ibn Zuhr correctly described the nature of pleurisy, tuberculosis and pericarditis. Az-Zahrawi accurately documented the pathology of hydrocephalus (water on the brain) and other congenital diseases. Ibn al-Quff and Ibn an-Nafs gave perfect descriptions of the diseases of circulation. Other Muslim surgeons gave the first accurate descriptions of certain malignancies, including cancer of the stomach, bowel and esophagus. These surgeons were the originators of pathology, not Giovanni Morgagni.

What is Taught: Paul Ehrlich (19th century) is the originator of drug chemotherapy, that is the use of specific drugs to kill microbes.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians used a variety of specific substances to destroy microbes. They applied sulfur topically specifically to kill the scabies mite. Ar-Razi (10th century) used mercurial compounds as topical antiseptics.

What is Taught: Purified alcohol, made through distillation, was first produced by Arnau de Villanova, a Spanish alchemist, in 1300 A.D.

What Should be Taught: Numerous Muslim chemists produced medicinal-grade alcohol through distillation as early as the 10th century and manufactured on a large scale the first distillation devices for use in chemistry. They used alcohol as a solvent and antiseptic.

What is Taught: The first surgery performed under inhalation anesthesia was conducted by C.W. Long, an American, in 1845.

What Should be Taught: Six hundred years prior to Long, Islamic Spain's Az-Zahrawi and Ibn Zuhr, among other Muslim surgeons, performed hundreds of surgeries under inhalation anesthesia with the use of narcotic-soaked sponges which were placed over the face.

What is Taught: During the 16th century Paracelsus invented the use of opium extracts for anesthesia.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians introduced the anesthetic value of opium derivatives during the Middle Ages. Opium was originally used as an anesthetic agent by the Greeks. Paracelus was a student of Ibn Sina's works from which it is almost assured that he derived this idea.

What is Taught: Modern anesthesia was invented in the 19th century by Humphrey Davy and Horace Wells.

What Should be Taught: Modern anesthesia was discovered, mastered and perfected by Muslim anesthetists 900 years before the advent of Davy and Wells. They utilized oral as well as inhalant anesthetics.

What is Taught: The concept of quarantine was first developed in 1403. In Venice, a law was passed preventing strangers from entering the city until a certain waiting period had passed. If, by then, no sign of illness could be found, they were allowed in.

What Should be Taught: The concept of quarantine was first introduced in the 7th century A.D. by the prophet Muhammad, who wisely warned against entering or leaving a region suffering from plague. As early as the 10th century, Muslim physicians innovated the use of isolation wards for individuals suffering with communicable diseases.

What is Taught: The scientific use of antiseptics in surgery was discovered by the British surgeon Joseph Lister in 1865.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 10th century, Muslim physicians and surgeons were applying purified alcohol to wounds as an antiseptic agent. Surgeons in Islamic Spain utilized special methods for maintaining antisepsis prior to and during surgery. They also originated specific protocols for maintaining hygiene during the post-operative period. Their success rate was so high that dignitaries throughout Europe came to Cordova, Spain, to be treated at what was comparably the "Mayo Clinic" of the Middle Ages.

What is Taught: In 1545, the scientific use of surgery was advanced by the French surgeon Ambroise Pare. Prior to him, surgeons attempted to stop bleeding through the gruesome procedure of searing the wound with boiling oil. Pare stopped the use of boiling oils and began ligating arteries. He is considered the "father of rational surgery." Pare was also one of the first Europeans to condemn such grotesque "surgical" procedures as trepanning (see reference #6, pg. 110).

What Should be Taught: Islamic Spain's illustrious surgeon, az-Zahrawi (d. 1013), began ligating arteries with fine sutures over 500 years prior to Pare. He perfected the use of Catgut, that is suture made from animal intestines. Additionally, he instituted the use of cotton plus wax to plug bleeding wounds. The full details of his works were made available to Europeans through Latin translations.

Despite this, barbers and herdsmen continued be the primary individuals practicing the "art" of surgery for nearly six centuries after az-Zahrawi's death. Pare himself was a barber, albeit more skilled and conscientious than the average ones.

Included in az-Zahrawi's legacy are dozens of books. His most famous work is a 30 volume treatise on medicine and surgery. His books contain sections on preventive medicine, nutrition, cosmetics, drug therapy, surgical technique, anesthesia, pre and post-operative care as well as drawings of some 200 surgical devices, many of which he invented. The refined and scholarly az-Zahrawi must be regarded as the father and founder of rational surgery, not the uneducated Pare.

What is Taught: William Harvey, during the early 17th century, discovered that blood circulates. He was the first to correctly describe the function of the heart, arteries and veins. Rome's Galen had presented erroneous ideas regarding the circulatory system, and Harvey was the first to determine that blood is pumped throughout the body via the action of the heart and the venous valves. Therefore, he is regarded as the founder of human physiology.

What Should be Taught: In the 10th century, Islam's ar-Razi wrote an in-depth treatise on the venous system, accurately describing the function of the veins and their valves. Ibn an-Nafs and Ibn al-Quff (13th century) provided full documentation that the blood circulates and correctly described the physiology of the heart and the function of its valves 300 years before Harvey. William Harvey was a graduate of Italy's famous Padua University at a time when the majority of its curriculum was based upon Ibn Sina's and ar-Razi's textbooks.

What is Taught: The first pharmacopeia (book of medicines) was published by a German scholar in 1542. According to World Book Encyclopedia, the science of pharmacology was begun in the 1900's as an off-shoot of chemistry due to the analysis of crude plant materials. Chemists, after isolating the active ingredients from plants, realized their medicinal value.

What Should be Taught: According to the eminent scholar of Arab history, Phillip Hitti, the Muslims, not the Greeks or Europeans, wrote the first "modern" pharmacopeia. The science of pharmacology was originated by Muslim physicians during the 9th century. They developed it into a highly refined and exact science. Muslim chemists, pharmacists and physicians produced thousands of drugs and/or crude herbal extracts one thousand years prior to the supposed birth of pharmacology. During the 14th century Ibn Baytar wrote a monumental pharmacopeia listing some 1400 different drugs. Hundreds of other pharmacopeias were published during the Islamic Era. It is likely that the German work is an offshoot of that by Ibn Baytar, which was widely circulated in Europe.

What is Taught: The discovery of the scientific use of drugs in the treatment of specific diseases was made by Paracelsus, the Swiss-born physician, during the 16th century. He is also credited with being the first to use practical experience as a determining factor in the treatment of patients rather than relying exclusively on the works of the ancients.

What Should be Taught: Ar-Razi, Ibn Sina, al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd, az-Zahrawi, Ibn Zuhr, Ibn Baytar, Ibn al-Jazzar, Ibn Juljul, Ibn al-Quff, Ibn an-Nafs, al-Biruni, Ibn Sahl and hundreds of other Muslim physicians mastered the science of drug therapy for the treatment of specific symptoms and diseases. In fact, this concept was entirely their invention. The word "drug" is derived from Arabic. Their use of practical experience and careful observation was extensive.

Muslim physicians were the first to criticize ancient medical theories and practices. Ar-Razi devoted an entire book as a critique of Galen's anatomy. The works of Paracelsus are insignificant compared to the vast volumes of medical writings and original findings accomplished by the medical giants of Islam.

What is Taught: The first sound approach to the treatment of disease was made by a German, Johann Weger, in the 1500's.

What Should be Taught: Harvard's George Sarton says that modern medicine is entirely an Islamic development and that Setting the Record Straight the Muslim physicians of the 9th through 12th centuries were precise, scientific, rational and sound in their approach. Johann Weger was among thousands of Europeans physicians during the 15th through 17th centuries who were taught the medicine of ar-Razi and Ibn Sina. He contributed nothing original.

What is Taught: Medical treatment for the insane was modernized by Philippe Pinel when in 1793 he operated France's first insane asylum.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 1lth century, Islamic hospitals maintained special wards for the insane. They treated them kindly and presumed their disease was real at a time when the insane were routinely burned alive in Europe as witches and sorcerers. A curative approach was taken for mental illness and, for the first time in history, the mentally ill were treated with supportive care, drugs and psychotherapy. Every major Islamic city maintained an insane asylum where patients were treated at no charge. In fact, the Islamic system for the treatment of the insane excels in comparison to the current model, as it was more humane and was highly effective as well.

What is Taught: Kerosine was first produced by the an Englishman, Abraham Gesner, in 1853. He distilled it from asphalt.

What Should be Taught: Muslim chemists produced kerosine as a distillate from petroleum products over 1,000 years prior to Gesner (see Encyclopaedia Britannica under the heading, Petroleum).

For biographies of Muslim Scholars mentioned in this article, visit the Web Site: Muslim Scientists and Islamic Civilization.

So explain again, please, why textbooks in America completely ignore a thousand years of civilization and scientific advancement we know only as "The Dark Ages"? Notice that the material above hardly touches on federalism, the constitutional republic, universal suffrage, surveying, astral navigation, all of which came with Islam ... and the list goes on.

Byzantium indeed.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.


46 Posted on 10/01/2001 12:19:31 PDT by ankaboot
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To: VinnyTex

While critics have called his remarks "unacceptable," "barbaric," "silly," and — of course — "racist," I am at a loss to find a single untrue word in his remarks

Yep.
We all thought that Brave New World and 1984 addressed western civilization, right?
I have never seen better examples of "doublespeak" than this...

And yes, I also am waiting for the Muslims to point out which part of those statements is not true.


47 Posted on 10/01/2001 12:39:27 PDT by Publius6961
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To: sinkspur

We're a decadent bunch, we are.

No we are a stupid bunch.
Adding 20 million Afghanis to our welfare rolls will freeze terrorism in its tracks.

Yep, works for me.


48 Posted on 10/01/2001 12:41:54 PDT by Publius6961
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To: VinnyTex

"[A]nd just because the Taliban is a harsh unintended consequence of that support, doesn't mean we should have held the door open for Soviet expansionism. Does it?"

Yes, it does. Russia has always been at war with Islam. Just because there happened to be Communists in the Kremlin does not alter the justice of Russia's cause. They also imprisoned murderers and rapists in the USSR. Should we have sided with common felons just because they were enemies of the Soviet government?

The West has been engaged in a life and death struggle with aggressive Islam since Mohammed's psychopathic homicidal vermin galloped out of their desert to destroy Christian civilisation in North Africa. Until now, America has been spared the tender mercies of Islam because we do not have a significant indigenous Islamic community, nor do we border any Islamic states. Now, after 9/11, we Americans have been fully initiated into The West. We have joined the same club as the Byzantine Empire, Russia, Hungary, Austria, Serbia, Greece, Spain, Italy, and France. They have all, at some time, been targeted by Jihad. Their lands were invaded, their citizens massacred, their churches desecrated, and their children sold into slavery.

Russia has know this at first hand. The U.S., blinded by ideological and geo-political categories, simply assumed that the war in Afganistan and the rebellion in Chechnya were purely political struggles. They are not; they are part of an ongoing agenda of world domination that will not end until the last Jihadist is safely planted.


49 Posted on 10/01/2001 13:00:22 PDT by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: Publius6961

Adding 20 million Afghanis to our welfare rolls will freeze terrorism in its tracks.

No doubt you'd rather nuke 'em.

I'm all for an all-out assault on bin Laden and sympathetic groups and nations.

But, preventing mass starvation is simply the right thing to do. These Afghanis won't be so amenable to helping the Taliban, either.


50 Posted on 10/01/2001 13:08:41 PDT by sinkspur
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To: VinnyTex

Thanks for posting. NRO has done a bang up job in making much sense out of many of the events since 09/11/01.

51 Posted on 10/01/2001 14:02:12 PDT by Fury
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To: ankaboot

To all of which I will simply reply by pointing out that the reciprocating steam engine was invented at Constantinople, but the only use to which it was put was to shake a building to evict some odious tenants.

A list of discoveries whose utitility was not exploited due to social conditions of the civilization in which they were made does not put a civilization at the forefront of culture or social development. The most humane and cultured society of the middle ages was the Christian Roman Empire, which Islam destroyed and pillaged for the basis on which what you have cited was built.


52 Posted on 10/01/2001 15:50:10 PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David

The most humane and cultured society of the middle ages was the Christian Roman Empire, which Islam destroyed and pillaged for the basis on which what you have cited was built.

Apparently you have difficulty reading calendars and maps.

The pagan Roman Empire -- Rome, by the way, is in Italy, not in the Holy Land -- massacred Christians of all varieties for three centuries and then reconstituted itself as the trinitarian Holy Roman Empire and massacred Unitarian Torah-observant Christians for three more centuries. Then it squandered the Roman legions and fleets, losing its North African sources of slaves and trade routes, by attacking the muslims in the Holy Land until it collapsed into the Dark Ages of Roman Catholicism.

Then the development of the sciences, and of Islamic Spain, laid the foundations for the later Middle Ages of Christian Europe, and Constantinople became Istanbul.

I don't have any problems with your desire to preserve some apparently ethnic self-esteem, or whatever it is that makes you confuse the clearly recorded history, but it's all unnecessary in my opinion. So Europe learned astral navigation, leading to the age of colonialism, from muslims, and so Ibn Sina ("Avicenna") was a muslim who wrote the text that was used for 800 years as the basis of European pharmacology -- so what? How does that diminish the accomplishments of Europeans who came later?

But do yourself a favor -- find out why our vaunted American public education left completely out of our sight and knowledge a thousand years of history, so that our "history" skips from Sumeria and Greece to Rome to the Dark Ages to the Reformation and the Constitution. Where in that piecemeal history do we find the federal constitutional democratic republic, which was revealed as Islam precisely where Scripture said it would be sent down, in the Holy Land?

You can confuse the calendars all you like, for your own satisfaction, I don't think a lot of people will be fooled. But how is it that we have this incredible gap in our knowledge that entirely misses the history and beliefs and culture of one fifth of the human race? We know more about China than we do about Islam. Why is that? Answer me that.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.


53 Posted on 10/01/2001 17:47:37 PDT by ankaboot
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