The True Islamic Morals

Some people who say they are acting in the name of religion may misunderstand their religion or practice it wrongly. For this reason, it is a mistake to form any idea of that religion from the activities of these people. The best way to understand Islam is through its holy source.

The holy source of Islam is the Qur'an; and the model of morality in the Qur'an is completely different from the image of it formed in the minds of some westerners. The Qur'an is based on the concepts of morality, love, compassion, mercy, modesty, self-sacrifice, tolerance and peace, and a Muslim who truly lives according to these moral precepts is highly refined, thoughtful, tolerant, trustworthy and accommodating. To those around him he gives love, respect, peace of mind and a sense of the joy of life.

Islam Is A Religion Of Peace And Well-Being

The word Islam has the same meaning as "peace" in Arabic. Islam is a religion that came down to offer humanity a life filled with the peace and well-being in which God's eternal mercy and compassion is manifested in the world. God invites all people to accept the moral teachings of the Qur'an as a model whereby mercy, compassion, tolerance and peace may be experienced in the world. In Surat al-Baqara verse 208, this command is given:

You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan. He is an outright enemy to you.

As we see in this verse, people will experience well-being and happiness by living according to the moral teaching of the Qur'an.

God Condemns Mischief

God has commanded humanity to avoid evil; he has forbidden immorality, rebellion, cruelty, aggressiveness, murder and bloodshed. Those who do not obey this command of God are walking in the steps of Satan, as it says in the verse above, and have adopted an attitude that God has clearly declared unlawful. Of the many verses that bear on this subject, here are only two:

But as for those who break God's contract after it has been agreed and sever what God has commanded to be joined, and cause corruption in the earth, the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode. (Surat ar-Ra'd: 25)

Seek the abode of the hereafter with what God has given you, without forgetting your portion of the world. And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause mischief on earth. God does not love mischief makers.' (Surat al-Qasas: 77)

As we can see, God has forbidden every kind of mischievous acts in the religion of Islam including terrorism and violence, and condemned those who commit such deeds. A Muslim lends beauty to the world and improves it.

Islam Defends Tolerance And Freedom Of Speech

Islam is a religion which fosters freedom of life, ideas and thought. It has forbidden tension and conflict among people, calumny, suspicion and even having negative thoughts about another individual.

Islam has not only forbidden terror and violence, but also even the slightest imposition of any idea on another human being.

There is no compulsion in religion. Right guidance has become clearly distinct from error. Anyone who rejects false gods and believes in God has grasped the Firmest Handhold, which will never give way. God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. (Surat al-Baqara: 256)

So remind, you need only to remind. You cannot compel them to believe. (Surat al-Ghashiyah: 22)

To force anyone to believe in a religion or to practice it, is against the spirit and essence of Islam. Because it is necessary that faith be accepted with free will and conscience. Of course, Muslims may urge one another to keep the moral precepts taught in the Qur'an, but they never use compulsion. In any case, an individual cannot be induced to the practice of religion by either threat or offering him a worldly privilege.

Let us imagine a completely opposite model of society. For example, a world in which people are forced by law to practice religion. Such a model of society is completely contrary to Islam because faith and worship have value only when they are directed toward God. If there were a system that forced people to believe and worship, people would be religious only out of fear of the system. What is acceptable from the point of view of religion is that religion be practiced in an environment where freedom of conscience is permitted, and that it be practiced only for the approval of God.

God Has Made The Killing Of Innocent People Unlawful

According to the Qur'an, one of the greatest sins is to kill a human being who has committed no fault: ...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32) Those who do not call on any other deity together with God and do not kill anyone God has made inviolate, except with the right to do so, and do not fornicate; anyone who does that will receive an evil punishment. (Surat al-Furqan: 68)

As we can see in the verses above, those who kill innocent human beings without a cause are threatened with evil punishment. God has revealed that killing one person is as great a sin as killing all mankind. Anyone who respected the prerogatives of God would not do harm to even one individual, let alone murdering thousands of innocent people. Those who think that they will escape justice and punishment in this world will never escape the account they must give in the Presence of God on the Last Day. So, those believers who know they will give an account to God after their death, will be very careful about respecting the limits God has established.

God Commands Believers To Be Compassionate And Merciful< In this verse, Muslim morality is explained: ...To be one of those who believe and urge each other to steadfastness and urge each other to compassion. Those are the Companions of the Right. (Surat al-Balad: 17-18) As we see in this verse, one of the most important moral precepts that God has sent down to His servants so that they may receive salvation and mercy and attain Paradise, is to "urge each other to compassion".

Islam as described in the Qur'an is a modern, enlightened, progressive religion. A Muslim is above all a person of peace; he is tolerant with a democratic spirit, cultured, enlightened, honest, knowledgable about art and science and civilized. A Muslim educated in the fine moral teaching of the Qur'an, approaches everyone with the love that Islam expects. He shows respect for every idea and he values art and aesthetics. He is conciliatory in the face of every event, diminishing tension and restoring amity. In societies composed of individuals such as this, there will be a higher civilization, a higher social morality, more joy, happiness, justice, security, abundance and blessings than in the most modern nations of the world today.

God Has Commanded Tolerance And Forgiveness Surat al-A'raf, verse 199, which says "practice forgiveness", expresses the concept of forgiveness and tolerance which is one of the basic principles of the religion of Islam.

When we look at Islamic history, we can see clearly how Muslims established this important precept of the moral teaching of the Qur'an in their social life. At every point in their advance, Muslims destroyed unlawful practices and created a free and tolerant environment. In the areas of religion, language and culture, they made it possible for people totally opposite to each other to live under the same roof in freedom and peace, thereby giving to those subject to them the advantages of knowledge, wealth and position. Likewise, one of the most important reasons that the large and widespread Ottoman Empire was able to sustain its existence for so many centuries was that its way of life was directed by the tolerance and understanding brought by Islam. For centuries Muslims have been characterized by their tolerance and compassion. In every period of time they have been the most just and merciful of people. All ethnic groups within this multi-national community freely practiced the religions they have followed for years and enjoyed every opportunity to live in their own cultures and worship in their own way.

Indeed, the particular tolerance of Muslims, when practiced as commanded in the Qur'an, can alone bring peace and well-being to the whole world. The Qur'an refers to this particular kind of tolerance:

A good action and a bad action are not the same. Repel the bad with something better and, if there is enmity between you and someone else, he will be like a bosom friend. (Surat al-Fussilat: 34)

Conclusion

All this shows that the moral teaching offered to humanity by Islam is one that will bring peace, happiness and justice to the world. The barbarism that is happening in the world today under the name of "Islamic Terrorism" is completely removed from the moral teachings of the Qur'an; it is the work of ignorant, bigoted people, criminals who have nothing to do with religion. The solution which will applied against these individuals and groups who are trying to commit their deeds of savagery under the guise of Islam, will be the instruction of people in the true moral teaching of Islam.

In other words, the religion of Islam and the moral teaching of the Qur'an are not the supporters of terrorism and the terrorists, but the remedy by which the world can be saved from the scourge of terrorism.

If you really believe this, then tell your buddies in Afghanistan to cough up Bin Ladin.

But you won't because your loyalty is to them, and them alone, morals be damned.

There are portions which you have not posted, which support the obverse.

You would be best to admit and post them.

Short of that, others will --- and they will want to know why you did not.

Starting a bunch of threads won't solve the dilemma confronting you and other Muslims: How to explain away various sayings of the so-called prophet (Hadith) which specifically call for a violent jihad against infidels and the forced conversion of non-believers?

Also, please explain why you would consider a man who married a six-year old as a prophet, rather than a pedophile?

If you actually read this article, you'd know he is no buddy of anyone who supports bin Laden. That's like linking you to your "fellow Christian," Timothy McVeigh.

"Afghanistan"

the people of Aghanistan are not represented by the Taliban - our beef is with the Taliban, Osama - Al Queda and all other terrorist groups/State sponsors.

And the Taliban have already insisted that they won't give Osama up or kick him out of their territory, under any circumstances.

Bark Alert! I've seen enough quotes from the Koran over the past few weeks, and they tell a different story. I'm sure someone has referenced a few of them and can repost them here. One was a comparison between Christianity and Islam. Another was the direct quotes to kill all the infidels. And then there is the matter of bestiality. A pretty sick piece of work, if you ask me.

A man named Victor Carvis did a little impromptu investigation into the media-stated premise that Islam is a religion based upon peace. We hear respected FOX spokesman Bill O'Reilly repeat that assertion. Is that true?

Here is what Victor found in their own book of devine worship, the Koran:

Islam: Religion of Peace?

After hearing so much from the media about Islam being a peaceful religion, I took it upon myself to actually read some of the Koran and see. The Koran is the doctrinal guideline for the muslim, therefore what it says explains their beliefs. What it says to me is that a peaceful muslim hasn't read it! It is one of if not THE most violent provoking religion on this earth. This is not my opinion... read for yourself from the examples I give below. Go to this website for an online Koran: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

Violence is commanded in Sura 9:5 "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,..."

What if you resist Islam? Sura 5:33 "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned..." [Definitely a tough Christian mission field if you are caught!]

Command to Al Tawbah: Sura 9:73 "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Terrorists? Sura 8:59-60 "And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly."

Make peace and be friends with the Christian and the Jew? NOT! Sura 5:51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." [How can a peace treaty ever come when this is commanded to the muslim?]

This book made me sick to read. It was full of hypocricy. Claimed to be divine in revelation and free of error [Sura 85:21,22], AND in compliance or agreement with the Bible, it is full of contradictions. Sura 7:51 and 10:3 claim 6 days of creation... but Sura 41 claims 8 days of creation!?! Sura 32-48 disagrees with Genesis 7. There are numerous errors concerning Abraham: father's name was NOT Azar as called in 6:74; he did NOT live in Mecca (14:37); he did NOT sacrifice Ishmael (37:100-112); and he was NOT thrown into the fire by Nimrod (21:68,69).

And how about Muhammad. He was not sinless (Sura 40:55); he had 16 wives and 6 'others'. Sura 4:3 forbids more than 4 wives; he never performed a single miracle (Sura 17:91-95). And what about his love for his people? He did not die for anyone. There is no personal relationship with him... HE IS DEAD!

And to our black muslim friends, have you been deceived? Check this out in Sura 3:106, 107 "On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved. And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah's mercy; in it they shall-abide." Hey, my friends, the Arabs were enslaving black Africans long before any Westerners did. Slavery is still fluorishing in the mideast.

The Koran is an amalgam of Hinduism, Buddhism, Mythaism, Greek mystery religions, as well as elements from Judaism and Christianity. Don't be fooled about what the media says of the basic Islamic faith. It is considered for the muslim good strategy to make treaties with their enemies, then at the most opportune time to run rampant with a 'scorched earth' policy while the other party is unprepared. Those in power within its leadership intend to yield 'The Sword of Allah'.

Please pray for those muslims who do not understand what their religion and its leaders intend for the world. It is complete domination by the Islamic faith. There is NO COMPROMISE... you are either one of them or an infidel worthy only of extermination and damnation to hell. Those peaceful muslims in the western world and elsewhere are being played for the fool. If they decide when they find out the truth that this religion is not for them... their punishment is DEATH to be carried out by any other believing muslim, whether directly commanded or not. To try and leave this faith is suicide in the eyes of the mainline muslim.

Islam: the religion of peace. Yeah, right. Don't believe what I tell you (and especially not what the media tells you). Do some research and find out FIRSTHAND what you have read here. They not only want you dumb, if you are not one of them... they want you dead!

Maranatha, Yeshua!

Also, you write as though there are Muslims who follow Islam, suggesting that there are Muslims who also do not follow Islam.

But in the west, most information in the public eye is that all followers of Islam are Muslims.

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Our own Judeo-Christian scriptures have their own disgraceful parts--for example, the stuff about hating and stoning homosexuals, adulterers, etc. But the main message of all religions is the same--love God and our fellow man. We need to throw out the bad and keep the good (and most of it is good).

I thought that "Islam" meant "submission," not "peace."  Or are "submission" and "peace" synonomous in Araby?

 

5:51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

 

4:89

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them

 

4:91

You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. 

 

8:60

And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allâh and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allâh does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of Allâh shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly.

 

 

17:33

And do not kill anyone which Allâh has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [(to demand Qisâs, Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islâmic law).

 

 

Pickthall Translation

 [an-Nisa' 4:89] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

[an-Nisa' 4:91] Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

 [al-Ma'idah 5:51] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

[at-Taubah 9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

Abdullah Yusuf Ali

 

2:191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight yo u, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

 

4:89

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks (one translatios says &#8220;Christians and Jews)  until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;

 

8:60

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

 

9:5

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

Thank you, Turan. Peace and blessings be upon you. We need some love and truth in here.

Really, why don't you explain Chapter 9 of the Koran. You know where it says to kill Christians, Jews, and non-believers!

There is no compulsion in religion.

Let's look up a word called Jizya and expose an outright lie, for what it is.

The Jizya or poll tax is a personal tax levied on non-Moslems in a Moslem State, and as such it resembles the Zakat (Alms Tax) which is levied on Moslem citizens by the Moslem State. The poll tax is levied so that all the capable non-Moslem citizens of the State can contribute, each from his own money, to the general welfare of the State, and that in return for this, they can enjoy their rights as nationals of this State, including compensation from the Moslem Exchecquer when they are in need.

Valour and mercy are not forgotten here, as the poll tax is not collected from the weak and poor. In his message to the people of Hira, Khaled Ibn Al-Walid says, "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the pull tax; his sustenance is provided by the Moslem Exchequer." In his book "Al-Kharaj," Abu Yusuf says, "No Jizya is due on females or young infants."

When the dues of the poll tax are paid by these people, they have to be supported, protected, granted a freedom of faith, and treated on a footing of justice and equality with Moslems. They are called "Zimmis" (the Arabic origin, "Zimma," meaning security, protection and custody) because the said rights are guaranteed by God and His Apostle, and such was the custom the Moslem leaders followed in dealing with the Zimmins. In his book "Futooh Al-Buldan" (Conquests of Countries), Al-Balathiri comments on this saying, "Khaled Ibn Al-Walid, on entering Damascus as a conqueror, offered a guarantee of security to its people and their properties and churches, and promised that the wall of the city would not be pulled down, and none of their houses be demolished. It was a guarantee of God, he said, and of the Caliph and all believers to keep them safe and secure on condition they paid the dues of the Jizya."

The poll tax is a small sum of money indeed when compared to the services the Moslem State offers to protect the Zimmis and support the army in charge to keep them safe from others' assaults. In his book "Al-Kharaj," Abu Yusuf gives the following reports: "After getting on peaceful terms with the people of Syria and collecting the dues of the Jizya and the Kharaj, news reached Abu 'Ubeida that the Byzantines had amassed their troops to attack him. The effect of this was great on Abu 'Ubeida and the Moslesm. He sent messages to the rulers of cities with whose citizens he had made peace, asking them to return to their subjects the paid dues of the Jizya and Kharaj, with an instruction to tell these: 'We hereby return to you the money you have paid us, because of the news of the enemy troops amassed to attack us, but, if God grants us victory against the enemy, we will keep up to the promise and covenant between us.' When this was delivered to the Zimmis and their money returned to them, they told the Moslems: May God bring you back to us and grant you victory over them!"

In his book, "The Spirit of Laws," on dealing with the taxes levied by the government, Montesqieu says, "Such levied taxes were one reason for the strange facility which the Moslems faced during conquests. People, then, preferred -- instead of being subjected to an endless series of fines which entered the rich imagination of greedy rulers -- to submit to the payment of a minimal tax which can be fulfilled and paid with ease."

So, as long as you pay the extortion price (arbitrarily set by the Clerics), you can live. Refuse to pay, and you will be killed. So much for the lie of non-coersion to switch religions.

That's like linking you to your "fellow Christian," Timothy McVeigh.

You apparently missed all that stuff about Invictus. He was very humanistic and said that if it turned out there was an afterlife, he'd "adapt". Then at the last minute he called for a priest and took the Last Rites. So, what his religious beliefs were is ambiguous.

Thank you, Turan. Peace and blessings be upon you. We need some love and truth in here.

Thank you for letting us know of our faults after only two days in the forum. Last has been a member since October 2nd, 2001

Thanks for the post. There are some freepers who deplore the recent attempts to smear all Muslims. One would think that some of the Christians here would rally to your defense since they have often been the victim of similar smears and guilt through association.

I dunno about slapping on Islam on something making it peaceful or destructful. What I do know is that now is not the time to discuss but to act against those nations whose ideology allow them to terrorize against other religions and expressions within and without their own territories.

Jews prospered once at the Mecca until Muhamad destroyed them. I will believe the Middle East is peaceful and Islam is peaceful when they will allow us to build churches and commemorative Synagogues about the massacred Jews at the Mecca, just as we let them build mosque at the Vatican and in Jerusalem.

Until there is a movement of peace like this starting, developing and rationalized by the muslims, then I will agree.

For example Jews too have horrible laws, such as the stoning of a boy who is immoral by eating too much and who is arrogant toward his parents. However Rabbinical interpretations have declared that the parents are responsible and hence the boy would be punishable if he were an adult, however he is not, hence stoning him would not be legal. Secondly, if he were a man still living with his parents and abusing them, then that would be a different story. However the interpretations point that it is a parental problem, not to be confused with the problem the father or the mother may have. Both parents have to speak technicaly with the same crying voice, which is virtualy impossible.

G_d hence imposes that people think about His laws and apply them. Where are the muslim interpretative texts that would rule out the weird and violent precepts of the Qoran? They do not exist or they are not exposed, save for a bunch of liberals talking gibberish.

I thought that "Islam" meant "submission," not "peace." Or are "submission" and "peace" synonomous in Araby?

I've read that "islam" does mean both. Now, there could be other words that mean just peace or just submission, but islam means both.

Peace!

Our own Judeo-Christian scriptures have their own disgraceful parts--for example, the stuff about hating and stoning homosexuals, adulterers, etc. But the main message of all religions is the same--love God and our fellow man. We need to throw out the bad and keep the good (and most of it is good).

"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."" [29:46]

If you actually read this article, you'd know he is no buddy of anyone who supports bin Laden. That's like linking you to your "fellow Christian," Timothy McVeigh.

I don't know if McVeigh ever claimed to be a Christian, but I can take my Bible and show you that he wasn't (unless there was an unreported last-minute conversion that took place. That seems doubtful, because he was defiant right up to the end and there was very little about his final minutes that went unreported.)

And that is the problem with your point. You can't read the Bible in a reasonable manner and believe God condones what Timothy McVeigh did. But our Muslim friend who wrote this article only told half the story about his "holy" book. A person can read the Qur'an in a resonable manner and find some justification for doing what the terrorists did. That is why many Muslims throughout the world - even in the U.S. - were celebrating the attacks initially. The only reason the celebrating stopped (for the most part) and the apologists were sent out in front of the cameras is because they realized we were serious about punishing the guilty, and they wanted to get out of the line of fire.

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." [60:8]

The holy source of Islam is the Qur'an

Here we go again. Let's consult the source:

Medina Suras
The Chapter of Women
[Chapters from the Koran]
The Harvard Classics 1909–14

But if there befalls you grace from God, he would say—as though there were no friendship between you and him—‘O would that I had been with thee to attain this mighty happiness!’ Let those then fight in God’s way who sell this life of the world for the next; and whoso fights in God’s way, then, be he killed or be he victorious, we will give him a mighty hire.

What ails you that ye do not fight in God’s way, and for the weak men and women and children, who say, ‘Lord, bring us out of this town 19 of oppressive folk, and make for us from Thee a patron, and make for us from Thee a help?’

Those who believe fight in the way of God; and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Tâghût; fight ye then against the friends of Satan, verily, Satan’s tricks are weak.

Do ye not see those to whom it is said, ‘Restrain your hands, and be steadfast in prayer and give alms;’ and when it is prescribed for them to fight then a band of them fear men, as though it were the fear of God or a still stronger fear, and they say, ‘O our Lord! why hast thou prescribed for us to fight, couldst thou not let us abide till our near appointed time?’ Say, ‘The enjoyment of this world is but slight, and the next is better for him who fears;’—but they shall not be wronged a straw.

...

Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too flee in God’s way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them and kill them wheresoever ye find them, and take from them neither patron nor help,—save those who reach a people betwixt whom and you is an alliance—or who come to you while their bosoms prevent them from fighting you or fighting their own people. But had God pleased He would have given you dominion over them, and they would surely have fought you. But if they retire from you and do not fight you, and offer you peace,—then God hath given you no way against them.

Ye will find others who seek for quarter from you, and quarter from their own people; whenever they return to sedition they shall be overturned therein: but if they retire not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wheresoever ye find them;—over these we have made for you manifest power.

Thanks for your post. Turkey has been a staunch and very important ally for the US since as long as I can remember. Every religion can be twisted and perverted. I can cite hundreds of verses from the Bible that sound very bloodthirsty. Some though, are pretty good, and one is applicable to folks condemning anybody's religion.

"Before you point out the mote in your brother's eye, pluck the beam out of your own eye."

Thanks. Good post, Turan.. Most of us who have lived around Muslims know the truth.

Islam sneaks up on you, pretending to be friendly until your back is turned -

The parts of the Bible that seem so harsh to modern people are the parts that were applicable to ancient Israel. Christians from the first century onwards have said that the civil law commanded of Israel in the Old Testament simply doesn't apply today. Christianity has always held to progressive revelation, meaning God shows us things more clearly as time goes on.

You can find NO harsh commands in the New Testament--THE standard by which the Old Testament commands are judged. The Koran has no such distinctions though...even getting harsher in its later parts.

There is simply no comparison between the love of Jesus and the harsheness Mohammed.

Islam slams and smears itself.

Thanks for joining and posting to Free Republic. I hope that you will find this forum a source of valuable information and insight. That you would take time to monitor the postings here and offer your own views shows that you are concerned with issues of individual rights and liberty. I welcome your contributions and encourage you to gain as much wisdom as you can here.

The True Islamic Morals-

Sorry to have to ignore you, but we don't have too much time for academics right now.

We're busy with reality; In the actual world, Muslims either enjoy mayhem and murder, or are deaf dumb and blind.

People need to be dealt with according to what they do, not what they say.
In both cases, they need to be dealt with first.

Correction from a Muslim.

These are the verses like they should be read:

"[88] Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the Way. [89] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." [4:88&89]

Hypocrites were some people who pretended to be Muslim but were not. They were inner enemies of Islam.

The Surah goes on to talk about the same people: the hypocrites, not the Jews, not the Christians:

"[90]Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). [91] Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them." [4:90&91]

Interesting, you who you call yourself Bible Believer. The Quran says about you otherwise:

"Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." [5:82]

Indeed, your trials to make me and other Muslims hate Christians is a big failure. Where I come from, I have many close Christian friends. I celebrate Christmas with them, they celerbrate Eid with me. Even Jews; I have not made friends with a Jew who wasn't a wonderful person. They made me understand the difference between "Jewish" and "pro-Israel". A very religious group of them made a demonstration in front of the UN in June, holding banners like: "Zionism is Racism", and "Palestine Is For The Palestinians", and "Stop Killing Palestinian Children".

It's much easier to plant the good seed of love in our hearts than to try to poison our minds with hate. Visit Bethlehem and see for yourself what the word "tolerance" means.

but you can not forget the atrocities of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the vile statements of Martin Luther the founder of Protestant Christianity (please see http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

the truth is that most Muslims in Turkey are good people. I probably wouldn't be here today if a Turkish muslim didn't risk his life to save my father's ancestors

Perhaps with your expertise you could answer a couple of questions on Islam. In the chapter, or sura, of the Koran often called the Merciful", at about 55:57 to 55:77, much is made of the virgins that Allah will supply "for those who fear the majesty of their Lord".

Are these virgins real human women or something else? If real human women, where are they from?

These are hard questions, but be careful what you start--Turan might ask you to scientifically explain Jesus' Resurrection and the parting of the Red Sea.

Whoever wrote this article a) doesn't speak or understand Arabic and b) at most has read only a small part of the Quran. More likely, this is verbatim what he has been told by one or more Muslim friends.

First off, the word Islam has no relation with the word for peace (salaam / or shalom in Hebrew). It is instead the imperative form of the verb "aslama", or to "submit". In other words, the name literally is a command to submit to the will of Allah ("The God"), and more pertinently to the teachings of his supposed prophet, Mohammed. When someone starts off with a lie or at the least an accidental untruth, they are one of two things. They are a liar and/or they are ignorant. In either case, this article is garbage.

Regarding the peacefulness of Islam, the bulk of the text of the Quran and long history clearly demonstrate that it is a religion of conquest and NOT peace. If they had somehow gained the technological superiority and dominance which the west has had since around 1400, they would have used it to crush our ancestors into the dust.

Ann Coulter may have been canned for saying so out loud, but in a holy war only one side comes out alive and unconverted. Christians need to realize this. Most Jews, especially those in Israel, found it out long ago.

Just like Christianity "smears itself" because in certain parts of the Old Testament calls on Israel to exterminate its enemies including every woman and child? Watch your back your friend. The Muslim bashers will go after Christians next and then where will you be?

If I proclaimed a belief in such, it would be a valid question.

Watch your back *my* friend.

If you believe that comparing the barbaric mentality of 14th century Christians with the ignorant Muslims of today is relevant, we all agree.

But since the rest of us are no longer living in the 14th century, we no longer accept slavery, selective taxes, murder and the sword as bargaining tools.

No blowing up school buses and pizza parlors either.

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders

World Islamic Front Statement

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin

Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt

Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group

Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan

Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"(Surya 9-5); and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,

in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

>>Note that Osama uses the Kuran's Surya 9-5 as his first justification for mass murder in the name of Allah.

These are hard questions, but be careful what you start--Turan might ask you to scientifically explain Jesus' Resurrection and the parting of the Red Sea.

Since none of the planned military actions are being taken in the name of Jesus, it would be irrelevant and beside the damned point.

Please read the true Islam,I am a muslim living in Turkey.and muslims are not bunch of terrorists.I am trying to prove this by this article.

What did you think of the Ottoman Empire? By the way, I'm glad Turkey has "secularized" its state. Now why hasn't the same thing occurred in most other Islamic States?

You are wasting your time. Your one article can not compete with entire media that is owned and Run by your enemies, and is dedicated to make people fear/hate your religion.

If millions of good Moslems live under tyranny, it is not necessarily their fault. The Afghans would love for their ousted democratic government to get back into power and end their suffering. And it was said 10 years ago that most Iraqi people would have been glad to see the anti-Saddam coalition go into Baghdad and dethrone Saddam.

Doesn't the historical revisionism of Islamics just get you? I saw a news story yesterday where some Islamic states are playing a film of the Crusade to get the Islamics all hot-headed for the Jihad. They, of course, miss the 300 years of rape, pillaging, massacres perpetrated by Islam against Christians which preceded the first crusade.

You didn't answer my question on your last thread.

Why do the vast majority of terrorists practice Islam?

If millions of good Moslems live under tyranny, it is not necessarily their fault. The Afghans would love for their ousted democratic government to get back into power and end their suffering. And it was said 10 years ago that most Iraqi people would have been glad to see the anti-Saddam coalition go into Baghdad and dethrone Saddam.

Yeah, lets continue with the analogies. Those poor Germans shouldn't have been punished for those evil Nazis. Those Germans would have loved to live with a democratic...and those poor Japanese....and the Vichy regime was just an aberration...and PolPot didn't really have much help in his genocide, just a lot of disenfranchized Cambodians. Have we got more excuses for hegemony, harboring terrorism, nazism, etc.?

They don't practice Islam--they pervert it and twist it to their own hateful ends.

Since none of the planned military actions are being taken in the name of Jesus, it would be irrelevant and beside the damned point.

Islamics and their sympathizers like to play that game don't they? Everything to divert attention away from the pervasive and insidious Islamicism and the Jihad.

"According to the Qur'an, one of the greatest sins is to kill a human being who has committed no fault: ...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind."

I find this phrase fascinating. Please define "causing corruption in the earth". Would American troops in Saudi, would the existance of Israel, constitute "causing corruption"? Bin Laden would seem to be saying that spreading American Values in general should be considered "spreading corruption". If so, then this is a loophole wide enough to fly a 767 through.

Of course, Muslims may urge one another to keep the moral precepts taught in the Qur'an, but they never use compulsion. In any case, an individual cannot be induced to the practice of religion by either threat or offering him a worldly privilege.

Islam as described in the Qur'an is a modern, enlightened, progressive religion. A Muslim is above all a person of peace; he is tolerant with a democratic spirit, cultured, enlightened, honest, knowledgable about art and science and civilized.

Every time I read this stuff, I think of the story related to me from a calssmate that served in Saudi during the Gulf War. When prayer time came, there were religious police with white batons that went around making sure that everyone was in the proper position and praying. They even tried to make my classmate and his associates (American christians) bow down - even to the point of hitting them with the batons! So much for "an individual cannot be induced to the practice of religion". Not to mention that is has been documented repeatedly that suicide bombers are commonly told they get a shortcut to heaven if they blow themselves up and, for the palestinians at least, the government takes care of the remaining family.

And anywhere that Islamic law is used as the basis for national law (Iran, Afghanistan, etc) women are required to completely cover themselves, and not leave their houses without proper escort or permission, have to right to vote or have any public position at all. Just to mention one common repressive activity. I even understand the originally good concept behind those activities of trying to really protect and value women, but it's hardly considered modern and enlightened in the world today.

Actions speak louder than words.

they pervert it and twist it to their own hateful ends.

They're applying the principles of Islam consistently. The peace-loving Muslims aren't.

The whole point of his article is that if they truly practiced Islam, they wouldn't be terrorist in first place. Maybe that point is above your intellectual capability.

It is very true that people in the name of Christianity have advocated and at times pursued violent dastardly behavior. So the apologists for Islam claim what happened similarly on 9/11 in the name of Islam. However, comparing the founder(s) and the founding texts of Christianity versus Islam, there is simply no comparison.

Jesus was a man of peace, even allowing Himself to be tortured to death, nailed to a cross. His first disciples went to similar deaths. Not until the government adopted Christianity under Constantine ca. 315 AD do you find anyone doing violence even in the name of Christianity. And the founding texts in the New Testament clearly prohibit violence and even hate.

Mohommed on the other hand was a bloody general...and from the very first his followers spread Islam by the sword. The Koran, as demonstrated clearly by others above, advocates violence to those who don't follow it (its "peace" really is only SUBMISSION, with a Borg-like,"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE... " thrown in)...In its founders examples and its texts clearly shows to be a serious & committed Moslem, is, toward non-Moslems, to be a violent one.

This is an interesting thread, however I'm sure bin Laden would tell us he is practicing the true Islam.

I guess you don't have a Pope or someone who can say either way which is true and which isn't true Islam.

I am a muslim living in Turkey.and muslims are not bunch of terrorists.

To be sure NOT ALL muslims are terrorists. And I think islam in Turkey is probably more tolerant than in a lot of other places - as it is here in America. But looking around the world, it doesn't seem that the general consensus from practicing muslims, is that this is a religion of tolerance or peaceful co-existence.

Actions speak louder than words.

Thank you, Turan. You indeed are a man of peace, as are many Muslims. God wants all men to be saved, and presents Himself in all religions, and even to atheists. Those who are sincere will find Him and be saved, through the merits of the sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ. However, I think you should seriously examine all of the Quran. Like the Old Testament, it is filled with blood, violence, and fear of women. Jewish practice (the Talmud) essentially interpreted the Law of the Old Testament so that, while the ritual aspects were kept, the revelation to Moses became the important thing - what is known in English as the "Ten Commandments" are still fundamental - and they are all words of peace and justice. Christianity made this open to all mankind, not only Jews, and if you read the Gospels, you will see that Jesus told His disciples to keep the commandments (of Moses) ... but to go one step beyond. And this is the message that Christianity has spread through the world.

Have there been horrors committed by Christians? Of course. There have been many times when "believers" have not adhered to the law of Christ. But my point is that every word in the Gospels is a word of peace. The only person who suffers for the Christian faith is the Christian; he does not make others suffer. When he does, he is in error.

I am not sure that the same thing can be said for Islam. There is much, both in the Quran and the Hadith, that is not peaceful at all. I think many sincere, God-enlightened people have sorted out the peaceful words (which were absorbed from later Judaism or from what people in that part of the world knew about Christianity, which unfortunately was under seige from the Arian heresy at the time that the Prophet had his visions), and are sincerely peace-seeking people.

I have friends who are Sufis, and I understand what you are saying, because the desire for God is very clear in you and in them. That said, I think you should look to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a Byzantine Rite Catholic Christian, and I think you will find the fullness of faith in Christianty. And you will find peace.

With its Christian-dominated culture and population, the United States, that defines itself as "a nation under God", is in fact a real friend of the Muslims. In the Qur'an, God draws attention to this fact and informs us that Christians are those who are "most affectionate to those who believe". (Surat al-Ma'ida: 82) --Harun Yahya

The whole point of his article is that if they truly practiced Islam, they wouldn't be terrorist in first place.

There are millions of Islamic fundamentalists who disagree with you. They believe the bin Laden's version of Islam is the only true version of Islam.

How would you characterize a belief system that spawns millions of people willing to cheer the slaughter of 7000 innocent people?

Maybe that point is above your intellectual capability.

Save your feeble personal attacks for someone who cares, fool.

My brother in New York has been to Turkey many times. Most Muslims in Turkey have a completely different approach to Islam. They like Americans. Don't throw the Turks in with the others. They are friendly to the U.S. and let us use their country for air bases.

The people of Turkey are not part of the terrorist problem. Turkey has a secular government and they are squared away.

Excellent post...

Turan, I have to agree with the others. During your reading of the Koran, did you just pass over the parts about inserting hot rods into the unbelievers bodies? The meathooks? Cutting off alternate hands and feet? Cutting off fingers? Boiling water? Boiling oil? Or did you choose to miss them.

The whole point here is that these words DO undeniably exist in the Koran and think what you will, as long as they DO exist, people will go out of their way to misinterpret it.

Actually, that's not right. Terrorists aren't 'misinterpreting' the Koran, they're interpreting it exactly as it reads. And as long as the Koran says things like "We have prepared for the unbeliever whips and chains and blazing fires!" it will be subjected to abuse.

I've never been against any religion in my life, but Islam isn't quite like any other religions. Islam has been on a butchering rampage and has spread like a pestilence over the world in the past 1500 years or so.

I understand that the emporer Arangzeb butchered 10,000 Hindus every day for a year, just because they were kafir - like me. Islam has desecrated 10,000 Indian temples and butchered their Holy men and mocked their Gods.

Islam is ANYTHING but peaceful. Sorry, I'll never buy it.

Just for fun, my friend Nabil refers to the Afghanis as camel jockeys, and his brother Ziad is a Navy RIO. I expect Ziad is pressing full steam for the Indian Ocean, if he's not already there.

Sorry, there's a distinct difference between the Christian atrocities and the Islamic atrocities.

When Christians killed during conversion or the Holy Inquisition for instance, they killed on the orders of a man.

When Islam kills, it's on the orders of their God.

That's why we could outgrow our baser instincts. Islam can't because it's their duty to their GOD to kill.

Bump. All these articles proclaiming how peaceful Islam is, and yet they never seem willing to address certain verses headon.

patent

What is your point?

As you say, their are millions who believe in Binladen's version..., so your problem is with them, and not with true Islam. However, your anger and frustation is turning into hate, and you refuse to separate the two. That will cause you to act in a way binladen does and then he will truly win. As that was the whole purpose of his assault in first place.

For centuries Muslims have been characterized by their tolerance and compassion. In every period of time they have been the most just and merciful of people.

Could you be more specific, i.e: which centuries, which periods of time?

Most of us who have lived around Muslims know the truth.

Is that supposed to comfort us, or terrify us?

I'm interested in knowing why no fatwa has been issued against Mr. bin Laden. I understand that most Muslims are peaceful people. However, I must state that Islam is what Muslims living today are. That's the reality. Islam is what Islam "is" today. Actions speak louder than words. We would like to see a fatwa issued against Mr. bin Laden.

People in the United States can read the Quran and what it says, and there is no need to add another "version" to it.I have read the Quran and I feel that in it Osama binLaden can find the justification for his actions there. Osama can justify his actions just by calling the people who died Infidel, pagan, or kafir, for the Quran calls for their death, all done in the name-of-allah. The "allah" of the quran, is not the God of the Bible, for the God of the Bible tells what sin is and hates it, and he stays away from it, and unforgiven sinners do not go to heaven, and there is NO sin up here. The 10 commandments tells us what sin really is, and sin is defined as "transgression of the law." The Quran seemms to say that sin is okay if it is done for allah, and that fornication will go on in Paradise forever, and that the worst muslim will have at least 70 virgins. The Quran calls murderers "martyrs" and they can go straight to Paradise if they kill in the name of allah. God is the Creator of man, and we agree on that, but we differ when it comes to the cheapness of human life. The God of the Bible loves his creation, and is tender of heart, and knows even when a little bird falls to the ground, and he says that he cares much more for us all. Muslims are taught that they are better than any other person, and that the rest are infidels, pagans, or kafirs and need to be destroyed if they do not repent, and they think that allah likes arabic. Maybe allah does like Arabic, but the God that I know says he is no respector of persons. The character of the true God is defined by the 10 commandments, and if Paradise is full of murderers, haters, fornicators, who on earth would want to go there? The Muslims think that they must die for allah, and Christians know that God gave HIS only son to die for sinners, so that there sins are forgiven and paid for by his blood.The Quran teaches that Jesus never did die, and that it all was a hoax. In Islam, sin is never erradicated, for it just goes on for ever, and they even teach that sinless Jesus will come, and follow Mohammed, live 40 years and then die. But Jesus gave his life to conquer our last enemy and it is death. Jesus died once and for all, and he will never have to die again, and he has a new body right now, and he is immortal. Only God hath immortality. Mohammed lies in his grave, awaiting the coming of Jesus, and the Judgement. The Quran is all based on one simple fact, and that is that Mohammed said that an angel told him what to say, and he has no real proof that he saw an angel or that it was from God. Mohammed makes no mention that Satan (Shaitan) can appear as an angel of light. In Islamic contries, the questioning of Islam is not allowed, and blasphemy or disent carries the penalty of death. Anything that cannot be questioned is not worth believing in, and something is wrong right there.

The whole point of his article is that if they truly practiced Islam, they wouldn't be terrorist in first place.

How do you explain the fact that the terrorists are mainly products of Madrassa schools where they study the Koran 8 to 10 hours a day?

I understand that the emporer Arangzeb butchered 10,000 Hindus every day for a year, just because they were kafir - like me. Islam has desecrated 10,000 Indian temples and butchered their Holy men and mocked their Gods.

Big bump for mentioning the Jihad in India. Massacres, rapes, forced conversions, desecrations and destruction of Hindu Fire Temples, conversion of other temples into mosques. A sordid history of the Jihad. Eastern Christianity and the Hindus (as well as Buddhists which Islam almost single handely wiped out in India) experienced the worst of the Jihad and know all about (or should know) Islam.

"Please read the true Islam,I am a muslim living in Turkey.and muslims are not bunch of terrorists"

Would it not be more correct to say that Turks are not a bunch of terrorists? Turkey is certainly the most enlightened and tolerant of the Islamic states (now, at least) but your co-religionists elsewhere have brought many innocent people to grief in every quarter of the globe. Evidently you and those who think like you -- which, I believe, is the majority of Moslems in the U.S -- do not belive that the Koran's encouragement of Jihad is to be taken literally. There is a substantial minority of Moslems throughout the world, however, that do. And because of the way they have chosen to conduct this particular version of Jihad, they have left the world no practical choice but to utterly and completely annihilate them.

If and when the nations or the world decide to take such a drastic step, with whom will the peaceful Moslems stand -- with the civilised world, including "infidels", or with their misguided co-religionists?

Touche! I cannot believe the reactions this guy is getting. I want to tell him that just as some Muslims don't follow the true Islam, there are some Americans who pervert the will of most of the American people. This thread is proof of that.

Can you tell me why you believe that Mohammed was visited by an angel rather than by a demon?

Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel named Moroni who also gave him a revelation.

Why would Joseph Smith be wrong and Mohammed be right? What would we use as a basis to determine which was right, if either?

Don't worry, if Islam is victorious across the world, and all the world is forced to "submit" to "islam" (synonyms in Arabic), then all of the horrible butcheries committed in the name of Allah over the last 1400 years will simply disappear down the memory hole forever.

Islamic history will record that the population of the world eagerly "submitted" to Islam. The dead, decapitated, gang raped burned and blown up will die unrecorded, and not long remembered.

And Moslems will say that is how it should be, for to "surrender" (the other Arabic translation of "islam") means not to ask any uncomfortable questions, but only to "submit" to the teachings of the prophet.

How do you explain the fact that the terrorists are mainly products of Madrassa schools where they study the Koran 8 to 10 hours a day?

The president himself has explained this to you, but you refuse to listen.

The terrorists are NOT true followers of Islam. They are NOT true Muslims. They are fundamentalist extremists who have taken the religion and perverted it to achieve their own ends. The president has asked the American people, over and over again, to refrain from this behavior. And yet you and most of the others in this thread persist. It does a great disservice to this great nation, and it is the blatent opposite of patriotism. You are hurting this country.

"Those who do not call on any other diety together with God...will receive an evil punishment." Have not the Muslims used this very verse to justify the persecution of Christians who believe in a triune God--one God, manifested in three ways--something the great Mohammed never understood and viciously condemned as the unpardonable sin of shirk? Are there not Christian churches burning all over the Moslem world this very day? I see tolerance in America. I see tolerance in Canada. I see tolerance in Great Britain. But I see no tolerance in the predominant number of Moslem countries, and that is because there is no tolerance taught in the Koran, that is, of course, unless we Christians and Jews pay the Koran's special tolerance tax on us.

Our own Judeo-Christian scriptures have their own disgraceful parts--for example, the stuff about hating and stoning homosexuals, adulterers, etc.

The difference is that we reserve this punishment for those within our own religion not for those from other religions. islam chooses to proscribe punishment and condemnation for all who are not of moslem faith.

That's exactly what I meant. There is nothing in Christianity that justifies conversion by force, for example. It did indeed happen in the past, but it is not part of Christianity; it was always an error, because Christianity requires free will, which, obviously, eliminates coercion. On the other hand, Islam seems to regard coerced "conversion" as just fine.

Oh crap. We are not talking about a few hundred cultists in Jonestown Guyana, we are talking about MILLIONS of moslem fanatics worldwide.

Please go back and read the 1998 Fatwah by Osama and other clerics calling specifically for the killing of all Americans, military and civilian.

The very first Koranic verse he cites to justify his Fatwah is Surya 9-5: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war"

Deal with reality, not fuzzy platitudes. The jets of 9-11 were flown into buildings by Moslems screaming "Allah Akbar!"

And they were cheered by millions across the Islamic world.

Deal with reality.

It is so much easier to be a coward and to lash out at things you do not understand. . .but in doing so, little man, you betray both your county and your God, because I have a little piece of news for you: the God of Islam and Christianity are one. It's the same God.

With every quote you post out of context, with every slap of your ignorance, you are committing a treacherous act to both your country and to God. Get it?

Beak, Nice try.

The Muslim: He (Of course, women have absolutely no official voice in Islam, and precious little unoffical voice) cannot say. "I renounce Jihad as a pillar of the faith."

He cannot say, "Jews, Christians, and Pagans are free to publicly practice their religion in Muslim countries and will not be harmed for doing so."

He cannot say,"You are free to worship your God in your way."

A Muslim cannot say, "Allah Bless America." To say these things would place a Muslim dead set against the actual daily practice of his religion. In regard to this whole "Moderate Mulsim" question: nobody is saying that all Muslims are radical terrorists.

They are human. The 80/20 Rule of Pareto applies to them, too. Out of the 1.3 Billion Muslims on this planet, 80% are not a much of a problem. And of course, not here.

20% have radical sympathies. Of that 20% (200 Million +), 80% may heartily believe, yet do nothing overtly harmful. That leaves 20% of 200 Million + people who believe and will take action on those beliefs. They will receive moral, financial, and logistical support from the belief base.

Beak, do your math. That's 40 million Muslims, and more, who will do whatever they are told to bring down non-Muslim civilization, supported by 160 million more who back them up.

So even granting your hypothetical point that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, you can see we have a problem.

And so far, these peaceful Muslims, who I am do sure exist, have done very very little to curb their rambunctious co-religionists. In fact, the 80% has done little to nothing at all to rein in their bastards.

Where is their "Fair Play for the Christians of East Timor and the Sudan" committee? Where is the "League of Muslim Doctors and Nurses Against Female Circumcision?"

No Beak, this Friday in Brooklyn, New York,and every other big town in this country, a good number of Muslims will go to their mosques and positively rejoice in what their brothers have wrought at the WTC while listening to sermons of hate against the West.

Speak up moderately against that, you moderate Muslims, and I will personally buy you the non-alcoholic beverage of your choice.
May Allah Bless America. Doesn't sound that hard to say for us, does it?

What, exactly, would be a true Muslim?

Would it be a person who reads and interprets the Quran according to modern sensibilities?

Or would it be a person who reads and interprets the Quran according to the intent and life example of the man who wrote and founded it?

Did Mohammed demonstrate the "peaceful" intent of his religion by his own life? How did he deal with unbelievers, especially when they opposed him? What example did he leave for his followers?

Who truly deserves the name "Muslim"? A man who follows in the path of Mohammed's example and who interprets his writings according to Mohammed's intent, or one who interprets Mohammed's writings according to his own sensibilities?

To be fair, however, there are many calling themselves "Christians" who read and interpret the Bible according to their own twenty-first-century sensibilities rather than the intent of the author. They have taken the Book and made their own religion of it. If the Bible says something that would make God appear "judgmental," "homophobic," or "unfair" to them, they throw it away. They tell the world that the "core" of Christianity is for people to love God and one another. And they tell the world that all the major religions have the same "core." A lot of people believe them.

The core of Christianity is this: The holy and only God sent His only begotten son Jesus into the world to suffer, die, and rise again, to save sinners; of whom I am chief. And there is no other name given under heaven by which men may be saved. This is the intent of the Author. This is flatly denied by the Quran. Unfortunately, it is also denied by many who call themselves "Christian."

Hello, Turan. I wanted to write to you personally because I feel that you are a sincere believer and are called by God. My father lived in Turkey for many years and loved it. He worked for an American construction company in Ankara, and planned to retire to Turkey. Unfortunately, there was a burst of anti-Americanism in Turkey about the time he was due to retire, so he went to Athens instead (because it was as close as he could get to Turkey) and died and is buried there.

I think God calls all men to Him, and I think that there are many is Islam that have found the nuggets of truth that exist in it. But I do think that if you want the fullness of truth - that is, something that is neither ethnically connected (like Judaism) nor something that views force as the way to extend itself (like Islam) - you should look to to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Any Orthodox or Catholic priest or layman in your city (sorry, I don't know where you are) should be able to tell you this. By the way, the doctrine of Orthodox and Catholic Christians is the same; there are just historical problems separating the two. Either one of them can tell you the truth.

If you want to respond, please do. I can imagine how distressed you are, and I pray that God in His infinite mercy will bless us all and lead us to the truth.

Don't tell me... tell your buddies other there!

Sorry, all. I meant to send this privately.

Islam is not like Apple Computer, not like Catholicism. Both of these have a single source supplier, hierarchical structure, one way to do things, etc. No, islam is like Protestantism, or the PC world, in this specific way: There is a general text from which to work, but individual entities within the class produce their own 'subclass' of specific rules or interpretations on what is to be done or how it is to be done.

Thus, those looking for the 'true' meaning of islam could find as many interpretations as there are muslims.

[snipped so-called "fatwa" of bin Laden]

Travis, this is completely disingenuous. You know perfectly well that I shredded this so-called "fatwa," this bunch of lying outlawry pretending to be religion, in Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void a week or more ago, calling for the punishment of the shari'ah on anyone who pursued this so-called "fatwa" to the point of bloodshed.

I thought Seals had honor. You're just being a shill for the Anti-Islam Brigades.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

Very well said, an excellent beak-tweek! I too was wondering why I haven't heard one single sound bite like that or read a single poster with "Allah Bless America". When and if an act is so opposite of the declared intent of one's expressed faith, it would seem easy enough..... wouldn't it?

The terrorists are NOT true followers of Islam. They are NOT true Muslims.

Under what authority can you decide bin Laden or Sadam Hussein are not true followers of Islam? Bin Laden would say he IS a true follower, each of the hijackers would say that he was a true follower. The hate spewing mullahs would claim they too are true followers. There is no Vatican or Pope or ultimate authority in Islam and you aren't it either.

The terrorists are NOT true followers of Islam. They are NOT true Muslims. They are fundamentalist extremists who have taken the religion and perverted it to achieve their own ends. The president has asked the American people, over and over again, to refrain from this behavior. And yet you and most of the others in this thread persist. It does a great disservice to this great nation, and it is the blatent opposite of patriotism. You are hurting this country.

Horse hockey! If they are NOT true muslims, then why do the "true muslims" tolerate them? The truth is, when a "true muslim" is wetting his pants, that's when he screams that the terrorists have no connection with his religion. Time for the "true muslims" to realize that the terrorists are the real muslims, and that the "true muslims" are being lead down the garden path.

because I have a little piece of news for you: the God of Islam and Christianity are one. It's the same God.

They are not. In Christianity and Judaism, the Jews are God's chosen people, in Islam they are called infidels and are supposed to be killed. God is not two-faced.

That's true and there were sure many "true" Muslims ---or they sure claimed they were who were very happy to come out after the 7000 innocent people were killed to say "we" deserved it because of our ties with Israel. As far as I know there has been no excommunication of even bin Laden so he is still a "true" Muslim as I'm sure he has always claimed he is.

Actually, it all sounded reasonable until I got to this part: "Islam prohibits..rebellion."

That must explain all those corrupt shahs, kings, and princes. Got to put up with them since rebellion is wicked.

Didn't we have a rebellion about 1776? Good thing we weren't Muslims then, or we'd still be bowing down to the Shah of America.

But since the rest of us are no longer living in the 14th century, we no longer accept slavery, selective taxes,...

You know, that gave me pause. Are we not subject to selective taxes? I know I pay more than others and there are those who pay more than me.

As God is driven from our society, our religion has become wealth and possessions. We who are most "religious" are selectively taxed more than those who are not so "religious".

Just rambling.

Nice try Big Nose.

I am not quoting Surya 9-5 out of context, I am simply posting the 1998 Fatwa by Osama Bin Ladin, exactly as he published it. If you think OSAMA is taking the Surya out of context, why don't you catch a plane over to Jalalabad and tell HIM, face to face?

And please answer one more question please:

exactly what kind of religion promises its "holy warriors" an eternity of sex orgies with 72 virgins as a reward for committing mass murder and suicide in the name of its god???

How does the Bible instruct us to protect ourselves from these murderous Islamics ???

You know perfectly well that I shredded this so-called "fatwa," this bunch of lying outlawry pretending to be religion, in Text of Fatwa by Bin Laden -- False and Void a week or more ago,

Don't tell us, tell OSAMA BIN LADIN!!

"Render unto Ceasar, that which is Ceasers' and render unto God, that which is Gods'"

We don't have to be sheep :)

Speak up moderately against that, you moderate Muslims, and I will personally buy you the non-alcoholic beverage of your choice. May Allah Bless America. Doesn't sound that hard to say for us, does it?

For thirty years I have asked ALLAH to give to America what He gave to the people of Jonah. I think you'll find that in Scripture in a short, 4-chapter Book by the same name. Nineveh also included more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who did not know their right hand from their left.

Perhaps some will find it of interest that Muhammad, when he left Makkah to go to Madinah, spend three full days and three full nights in the belly of the earth, as Jesus said would be a Sign -- explicitly, three full days and three full nights constituted the Sign.

I drink coffee.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

I too was wondering why I haven't heard one single sound bite like that or read a single poster with "Allah Bless America".

Then obviously you've missed Message from the Muslim Community and it hasn't been reported in whatever "free press" you've been watching. Wonder why?

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

I hate to be a cynic, but perhaps a teeny-weeny bit of the kind effulgences of the govt over the peacefulness of Islam has something to do with the fact that Muslims own the oil, without which our economy would be stone dead. We really don't want to piss off the guys who own the spigots. Thankfully, many of them only pay lip service to Islamic radicalism and are really capitalists (Lots of Saud money in the NYSE, for instance), but they're not going to go Too Far against their own ignorant masses. Nor can we afford to get them all deposed and replaced by bin Laden's lieutenants, who would let us burn in hell before releasing a drop of oil. Admittedly, some of the Saudis are tyrants and perverts, but they are Our tyrants and perverts ;')

It's really all a very tricky balancing act.

caddie, you made a trenchant post. Don't listen to McCain. His name says it all--despised on the right, used on the left, respected by neither.

This is not about your faith.

We seek to punish the murderers and those who help them.

If they happen to be of the same faith as you, please don't take this as a condemnation of your beliefs.

We would kill them no matter what religion they subscribed to. They merit death and that right soon.

Actually, it all sounded reasonable until I got to this part: "Islam prohibits .. rebellion."

That must explain all those corrupt shahs, kings, and princes. Got to put up with them since rebellion is wicked.

Didn't we have a rebellion about 1776? Good thing we weren't Muslims then, or we'd still be bowing down to the Shah of America.

You are considerably nearer than you imagine.

The Abbasid Tyranny displaced the Umayyad Dynasty and promptly instituted a doctrinal jurisprudence that has now terminally collapsed the millennial muslim world. Their first "institutional" order of business -- after annihilating the entire family of Umayya (except one person who escaped to found Islamic Spain), and then murdering all the Shi'ah who helped them (institutionalizing "taqiyyah" or "dissimulation" among the Shi'a) -- was to prevent a second revolution, which is how they came to power.

Their device for this was to add a meaning to a word. We Americans are called upon to remove from office those who do not actually believe in democracy -- hypocrites who pretend to serve the people while lining their own pockets and giving away America to partisan and foreign "special interests" -- and there is a verse about those who rule the muslims saying "If the hypocrites take over then kill them wherever you find them."

In other words in Islam the sovereign power is entrusted to fallible humans who are recognizably faithful to the letter and the spirit of Islam, the Law and the Mercy, who are quite often surrounded by hypocrites with smiling pretense who are in it for themselves. Should those hypocrites gain the upper hand, they are to be killed wholesale by anyone who can find them, wherever they find them. When it happened that the hypocrites gained the upper hand, the Arab muslims (who knew this, since they read Arabic) didn't do it because the hypocrites were Arabs and the bulk of the muslims by that time were not Arabs -- a purely nationalistic, self-aggrandizing, racist decision that persists to this day.

The Abbasids "changed" this verse with "religious technical understanding" (i.e., by the "interpretation" of a professional priesthood) into "If the hypocrites turn back then kill them wherever you find them." The Arabic grammar does not support this gloss, but the corrupted scholarship pretends to authenticate it as what God "actually" meant although He said something quite different. This also gave them a false law that enabled them also to kill anyone who wanted to leave the muslim community -- and more particularly, the Arab ruling castes, although there is no law whatever that calls for that.

By this device the Arab Abbasids insured the continued cohesion of the Arab castes, the loyalty of the Arabs caught up in the dynastic imperialism, and the good behavior of the subjugated muslims who followed the priestly authorities. A century later, all vestige of the original Law in this particular had been erased from the annals and the minds of the muslims.

So with the addition of a priestly gloss on a single word, the Abbasid de-legitimized revolution that is clearly required by the Law. Disfranchised muslims ever since have been all but impossible to inspire to rebellion against tyrants.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

And please answer one more question please:

exactly what kind of religion promises its "holy warriors" an eternity of sex orgies with 72 virgins as a reward for committing mass murder and suicide in the name of its god???

What a hypocrite you are! I've answered this repeatedly to your mindless repetitions, that there is no such teaching in Islam, it's made up out of whole cloth. And you know that.

You merely repeat this slander because your aim is to confuse and deceive. Perfectly legal, of course, you can lie all you want -- but it certainly doesn't reflect well on your fellow American veterans and our elite SEAL forces. You should be ashamed of yourself -- and you're certainly not.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.

The president has asked the American people, over and over again, to refrain from this behavior. And yet you and most of the others in this thread persist. It does a great disservice to this great nation, and it is the blatant opposite of patriotism. You are hurting this country.

I would like to know how telling the truth about the Islam and it's bloody and violent history "hurts" my country?? How is it a "disservice" to America?? Why is celebrating a religion that advocates, no, COMMANDS, its followers to torture and kill unbelievers "patriotic"?? If the truth hurts this country, we are in worst shape than I thought!

Did you post any articles condemning the homicidal attacks by bombers and gunmen in Israel before the 9-11 attacks? If you did, please provide links, as they will increase your credibility. Lots of Muslims condemn this attack, but still view Hamas as freedom fighters. I am pretty tired of them being paraded on our TVs saying, "This attack was against Islam, and should be condemned, but hopefully the US will rethink its policies in the Mideast that caused these people to do what they did."

The terrorists are NOT true followers of Islam. They are NOT true Muslims. They are fundamentalist extremists who have taken the religion and perverted it to achieve their own ends.

Then why are we having such a hard time convincing the "moderate" Muslim countries to help us find OBL, or even let us use their airspace?

The answer may go even farther than religion. I think race and nationality play a big part. I use this analogy: The way OBL and his people follow a perverted form of Islam, can be loosely compared to the KKK claiming to be "Christian." Suppose the KKK launched an attack on a large African city. They were hiding out here in America and the African nation told us to hand them over. Of course, we most probably would. BUT - if we didn't, how many Americans would allow that nation to send armed troops into our land to find the KKK? Not many.

I addressed the question (which turns you to a rage of jelly) to EagleBeak, not to you.

You seem mighty intent to accuse me of slander, lies etc etc etc ad nauseum. Yawn.

But you never answer the questions.

Exactly what makes ANKABOOT'S interpretation of the Koran more valid than Osama Bin Ladin's? He uses Surya 9-5 from your common Koran to order moslems to kill Americans. Why is he wrong and you right? Is there a "moslem pope" who can settle the issue? Or are you both right? Or both wrong? How exactly is an observer to tell?

It would seem he has millions more devoted followers than you do.

So why are you wasting your time on THIS forum, when you should be busy on the Arabic forums convincing the millions of misguided fanatic death-cult moslems of the error of their ways?

All I know for certain is that the 19 mad dog mass murderers of 9-11 went to their suicide-murder deaths screaming "ALLAH AKBAR!!!!"

And millions of moslems worldwide were delerious with joy at the acts.

How is a non-moslem to interpret this?

Islam has been co-opted by Wahhabism

Saudi Arabia and Islamic Fanatacism
Author: Stephen Schwartz
Ground Zero and the Saudi connection

The first thing to do when trying to understand 'Islamic suicide bombers' is to forget the clichés about the Muslim taste for martyrdom. It does exist, of course, but the desire for paradise is not a safe guide to what motivated the appalling suicide attacks on New York and Washington last week. Throughout history, political extremists of all faiths have willingly given up their lives simply in the belief that by doing so, whether in bombings or in other forms of terror, they would change the course of history, or at least win an advantage for their cause. Tamils are not Muslims, but they blow themselves up in their war on the government of Sri Lanka; Japanese kamikaze pilots in the second world war were not Muslims, but they flew their fighters into US aircraft carriers.

The Islamofascist ideology of Osama bin Laden and those closest to him, such as the Egyptian and Algerian 'Islamic Groups', is no more intrinsically linked to Islam or Islamic civilisation than Pearl Harbor was to Buddhism, or Ulster terrorists ? whatever they may profess ? are to Christianity. Serious Christians don't go around killing and maiming the innocent; devout Muslims do not prepare for paradise by hanging out in strip bars and getting drunk, as one of last week's terrorist pilots was reported to have done.

The attacks of 11 September are simply not compatible with orthodox Muslim theology, which cautions soldiers 'in the way of Allah' to fight their enemies face-to-face, without harming non-combatants, women or children. Most Muslims, not only in America and Britain, but in the world, are clearly law-abiding citizens of their countries ? a point stressed by President Bush and other American leaders, much to their credit. Nobody on this side of the water wants a repeat of the lamented 1941 internment of Japanese Americans.

Still, the numerical preponderance of Muslims as perpetrators of these ghastly incidents is no coincidence. So we have to ask ourselves what has made these men into the monsters they are? What has so galvanised violent tendencies in the world's second-largest religion (and, in America, the fastest growing faith)? Can it really flow from a quarrel over a bit of land in the Middle East?

For Westerners, it seems natural to look for answers in the distant past, beginning with the Crusades. But if you ask educated, pious, traditional but forward-looking Muslims what has driven their umma, or global community, in this direction, many of them will answer you with one word: Wahhabism. This is a strain of Islam that emerged not at the time of the Crusades, nor even at the time of the anti-Turkish wars of the 17th century, but less than two centuries ago. It is violent, it is intolerant, and it is fanatical beyond measure. It originated in Arabia, and it is the official theology of the Gulf states. Wahhabism is the most extreme form of Islamic fundamentalism, and its followers are called Wahhabis.

Not all Muslims are suicide bombers, but all Muslim suicide bombers are Wahhabis ? except, perhaps, for some disciples of atheist leftists posing as Muslims in the interests of personal power, such as Yasser Arafat or Saddam Hussein. Wahhabism is the Islamic equivalent of the most extreme Protestant sectarianism. It is puritan, demanding punishment for those who enjoy any form of music except the drum, and severe punishment up to death for drinking or sexual transgressions. It condemns as unbelievers those who do not pray, a view that never previously existed in mainstream Islam.

It is stripped-down Islam, calling for simple, short prayers, undecorated mosques, and the uprooting of gravestones (since decorated mosques and graveyards lend themselves to veneration, which is idolatry in the Wahhabi mind). Wahhabis do not even permit the name of the Prophet Mohammed to be inscribed in mosques, nor do they allow his birthday to be celebrated. Above all, they hate ostentatious spirituality, much as Protestants detest the veneration of miracles and saints in the Roman Church.

Ibn Abdul Wahhab (1703?92), the founder of this totalitarian Islamism, was born in Uyaynah, in the part of Arabia known as Nejd, where Riyadh is today, and which the Prophet himself notably warned would be a source of corruption and confusion. (Anti-Wahhabi Muslims refer to Wahhabism as fitna an Najdiyyah or 'the trouble out of Nejd'.) From the beginning of Wahhab's dispensation, in the late 18th century, his cult was associated with the mass murder of all who opposed it. For example, the Wahhabis fell upon the city of Qarbala in 1801 and killed 2,000 ordinary citizens in the streets and markets.

In the 19th century, Wahhabism took the form of Arab nationalism v. the Turks. The founder of the Saudi kingdom, Ibn Saud, established Wahhabism as its official creed. Much has been made of the role of the US in 'creating' Osama bin Laden through subsidies to the Afghan mujahedin, but as much or more could be said in reproach of Britain which, three generations before, supported the Wahhabi Arabs in their revolt against the Ottomans. Arab hatred of the Turks fused with Wahhabi ranting against the 'decadence' of Ottoman Islam. The truth is that the Ottoman khalifa reigned over a multinational Islamic umma in which vast differences in local culture and tradition were tolerated. No such tolerance exists in Wahhabism, which is why the concept of US troops on Saudi soil so inflames bin Laden.

Bin Laden is a Wahhabi. So are the suicide bombers in Israel. So are his Egyptian allies, who exulted as they stabbed foreign tourists to death at Luxor not many years ago, bathing in blood up to their elbows and emitting blasphemous cries of ecstasy. So are the Algerian Islamist terrorists whose contribution to the purification of the world consisted of murdering people for such sins as running a movie projector or reading secular newspapers. So are the Taleban-style guerrillas in Kashmir who murder Hindus. The Iranians are not Wahhabis, which partially explains their slow but undeniable movement towards moderation and normality after a period of utopian and puritan revivalism. But the Taleban practise a variant of Wahhabism. In the Wahhabi fashion they employ ancient punishments ? such as execution for moral offences ? and they have a primitive and fearful view of women. The same is true of Saudi Arabia's rulers. None of this extremism has been inspired by American fumblings in the world, and it has little to do with the tragedies that have beset Israelis and Palestinians.

But the Wahhabis have two weaknesses of which the West is largely unaware; an Achilles' heel on each foot, so to speak. The first is that the vast majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful people who would prefer the installation of Western democracy in their own countries. They loathe Wahhabism for the same reason any patriarchal culture rejects a violent break with tradition. And that is the point that must be understood: bin Laden and other Wahhabis are not defending Islamic tradition; they represent an ultra-radical break in the direction of a sectarian utopia. Thus, they are best described as Islamofascists, although they have much in common with Bolsheviks.

The Bengali Sufi writer Zeeshan Ali has described the situation touchingly: 'Muslims from Bangladesh in the US, just like any other place in the world, uphold the traditional beliefs of Islam but, due to lack of instruction, keep quiet when their beliefs are attacked by Wahhabis in the US who all of a sudden become "better" Muslims than others. These Wahhabis go even further and accuse their own fathers of heresy, sin and unbelief. And the young children of the immigrants, when they grow up in this country, get exposed only to this one-sided version of Islam and are led to think that this is the only Islam. Naturally a big gap is being created every day that silence is only widening.' The young, divided between tradition and the call of the new, opt for 'Islamic revolution' and commit themselves to their self-destruction, combined with mass murder.

The same influences are brought to bear throughout the ten-million-strong Muslim community in America, as well as those in Europe. In the US, 80 per cent of mosques are estimated by the Sufi Hisham al-Kabbani, born in Lebanon and now living in the US, to be under the control of Wahhabi imams, who preach extremism, and this leads to the other point of vulnerability: Wahhabism is subsidised by Saudi Arabia, even though bin Laden has sworn to destroy the Saudi royal family. The Saudis have played a double game for years, more or less as Stalin did with the West during the second world war. They pretended to be allies in a common struggle against Saddam Hussein while they spread Wahhabi ideology everywhere Muslims are to be found, just as Stalin promoted an 'antifascist' coalition with the US while carrying out espionage and subversion on American territory. The motive was the same: the belief that the West was or is decadent and doomed.

One major question is never asked in American discussions of Arab terrorism: what is the role of Saudi Arabia? The question cannot be asked because American companies depend too much on the continued flow of Saudi oil, while American politicians have become too cosy with the Saudi rulers.

Another reason it is not asked is that to expose the extent of Saudi and Wahhabi influence on American Muslims would deeply compromise many Islamic clerics in the US. But it is the most significant question Americans should be asking themselves today. If we get rid of bin Laden, who do we then have to deal with? The answer was eloquently put by Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr, professor of political science at the University of California at San Diego, and author of an authoritative volume on Islamic extremism in Pakistan, when he said: 'If the US wants to do something about radical Islam, it has to deal with Saudi Arabia. The "rogue states" [Iraq, Libya, etc.] are less important in the radicalisation of Islam than Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the single most important cause and supporter of radicalisation, ideologisation, and the general fanaticisation of Islam.'

From what we now know, it appears not a single one of the suicide pilots in New York and Washington was Palestinian. They all seem to have been Saudis, citizens of the Gulf states, Egyptian or Algerian. Two are reported to have been the sons of the former second secretary of the Saudi embassy in Washington. They were planted in America long before the outbreak of the latest Palestinian intifada; in fact, they seem to have begun their conspiracy while the Middle East peace process was in full, if short, bloom. Anti-terror experts and politicians in the West must now consider the Saudi connection. Stephen Schwartz is the author of Intellectuals and Assassins, published by Anthem Press.

1 Posted on 10/04/2001 04:42:13 PDT by NY Catholic [ Reply | Private Reply | Top | Last ] To: NY Catholic This is only half the picture. Read Yossef Bodansky's new book BIN LADEN: THE MAN WHO DECLARED WAR ON AMERICA as well as his TARGET: AMERICA where he documents the rise of Islamism. While Saudi interests finance Islamism and there are many leaders in the terrorist network who are sons of the current Saudi government, the theological and political foundation of Islamism is NOT Saudi.

I'm not sure of the authenticity of this, and maybe you can confirm. Apparently, there is more than virgins and rivers of wine awaiting those who die for allah:

Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

The relevant verses from the Koran are:

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

I found this HERE.

I would like to know how telling the truth about the Islam and it's bloody and violent history "hurts" my country??

I agree completely! If we can warn our fellow patriots of the dangers of Islam, maybe our culture and civilization will survive, unlike so many in the past who stood in front of bloody, bloody Islam.

Godspeed

Thanks. Good post, Turan.. Most of us who have lived around Muslims know the truth.

I have lived in the Middle East too, and I don't agree with a single word you say about it.

dear pocat the article that you found is on a website run by Hindu extremists..and I dont suppose that they can make an objective analysis.

thanks Turan

So why are you wasting your time on THIS forum, when you should be busy on the Arabic forums convincing the millions of misguided fanatic death-cult moslems of the error of their ways?

Probably because he doesn't want to die a bloody, violent death at the hands of his fellow muslims, I'd guess.

Hindu extremists

And what do you suppose made them so extreme? Could it be the 10,000+ temples, priesthoods and gods that were mocked and destroyed by Islam since the 800's and their temples replaced by mosques??

Could it be the tens of millions of Hindus that were butchered in the worst possible ways imaginable?

Islam is literally at war with EVERY other religion in the world that they have come in contact with. They are also at war with every major world power.

Exactly how do you think muslims got into Chechnya in Russia? That's nowhere near Arabia. It'll tell you how they got there. They butchered there way there over hundreds of years.

They are not. In Christianity and Judaism, the Jews are God's chosen people, in Islam they are called infidels and are supposed to be killed. God is not two-faced.

I agree, Fitz, Allah is a false, non existent god.

It is interestig to make a few comparisons, useful to learn the relative confidence of religions in their own truth.

Islam may be freely practiced in the West, there are no Christian or Hebrew churches permitted in the home of Mohammed, Saudi Arabia.

Moslems are free to buy radio stations, buy TV time, sell newspapers on every corner announcing the glories of Islam in the West. In Saudi Arabia.....

A Christian or Jew is free to convert to Islam any day of his choosing, no questions asked, no hard feelings. If a Moslem, even one "converted" at sword point (Indonesia, Sudan etc) tries to convert from Islam to another religions, he is an apostate, and the penalty is death.

It would seem that Moslems are terrified of "the free market of ideas".

Why?

Hindu extremists

Hindus are so peaceful, they won't even kill animals, and I believe Hindus get along with people of all religions except Muslims.

You might be a very good person, and ankaboot might also be a very good person, there might be very many good individuals who are Muslim but there seems to be something in the Koran that quite a number are finding that brings out a lot of hatred and unexplainable rage.

as Jesus said would be a Sign -- explicitly, three full days and three full nights constituted the Sign. Posted by ankaboot Uh, please share with me in which biblical text passages you found that. Thank you ... we could use the chapter and verse where Jesus said the quote you claim.

Hey Travis . . . ya wanna borrow some of my 72 virgins for a few nights ??? :-))

It would seem that Moslems are terrified of "the free market of ideas".

Why?

They seem very intolerant of other religions, almost like a cult.

They are not. In Christianity and Judaism, the Jews are God's chosen people, in Islam they are called infidels and are supposed to be killed. God is not two-faced.

No, in Judaism, the belief was that Jews were God's chosen people--and even in Judaism there are fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists (c.f. orthodox/non-orthodox). That belief has been challenged in scholarly Jewish circles--and if you would would like proof of that, look up some information on a rabbi named Richard Rubenstein, for starters. Jesus was killed by some ignorant Romans. But I'm not out to berate Roman Catholicism because I know too many fine Roman Catholics whom I love and respect. I love and respect their ideals, their minds, and their hearts. But I can say the same about Jews and Muslims too. So those who revile me for not being "Christian" enough in this forum ought to do some hard thinking, because I figure they are missing out on some wonderful people who are precious to God; but they are missing out because they don't know any better.

Under what authority can you decide bin Laden or Sadam Hussein are not true followers of Islam? Bin Laden would say he IS a true follower, each of the hijackers would say that he was a true follower. The hate spewing mullahs would claim they too are true followers. There is no Vatican or Pope or ultimate authority in Islam and you aren't it either.

Do you also insult Jews and Protestants because they don't have this "authority"?

But the main message of all religions is the same--love God and our fellow man

That is NOT the main message of Christianity. I cannot speak for other religions.

The main message of Christianity is the resurrection. If we believe in it and the Lordship of the risen Christ, then we are saved. That is the main message of Christianity. In fact, Christianity sees the sacrifice-based resurrection as the central point of all HISTORY.

Hah! Jesus was killed by some ignorant Romans. Posted by eaglebeak Amazing! The Jews seem to claim they were responsible for the death of Yeshua since they said emphatically, "Let his blood be upon our heads ..." You are in way over your head, dude! Step away and let the big dogs run. Step up here on the porch with me and enjoy the race. Baruch HaShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach</font color=red>

How do you explain the fact that the terrorists are mainly products of Madrassa schools where they study the Koran 8 to 10 hours a day?

The president himself has explained this to you, but you refuse to listen.

With all due respect to the president, he is not a theologian. How many muslims, upon hearing president Bush proclaim their religion a peaceful one, will renounce all violence? How many look to him to define their faith? Heck, I don’t even look to him to define the Christian faith, and at least he is one of those. Get real here, the president no more can define Islam then you or I can.

The terrorists are NOT true followers of Islam. They are NOT true Muslims. They are fundamentalist extremists who have taken the religion and perverted it to achieve their own ends.

Then why aren’t they roundly denounced by the true Islamics? Why aren’t they driven out of their midst? Why can’t these true Muslims explain what all these rather frightening passages in the Koran really mean?

The president has asked the American people, over and over again, to refrain from this behavior. And yet you and most of the others in this thread persist. It does a great disservice to this great nation, and it is the blatent opposite of patriotism. You are hurting this country.

Your being a bit hysterical here.

patent  +AMDG

I'm just asking you who excommunicated bin Laden and the terrorists from Islam, you are claiming they are not "true" Muslims because true Muslims don't believe in violence. If a Southern Baptist minister starts claiming all Catholics will go to hell, maybe he stays in that religion, but if he steps further and tells his congregation to kill all Catholics, the Southern Baptists would throw him out. The Lutherans have a way to disown Lutherans who overstep, the Catholics have excommunication. I don't think anyone has excommunicated a single terrorist from Islam.

I agree that individual Muslims could be very good moral people. But I also happen to know atheists who lead good moral lives and never hurt anyone. Even Muslims seem to believe that the terrorists are Muslims who got too involved in their religion, that doesn't seem to be a problem in other faiths.

Then why are we having such a hard time convincing the "moderate" Muslim countries to help us find OBL, or even let us use their airspace?

Pakistan was the first in line. That says a lot.Many others are "with" them. Still others are coming along. I think we'll see some real revelations (pardon the pun) as time goes on. There is a natural fear that this pretension to the true Islam on the part of the terrorists will fuel an enormous war, a war mistakenly taken for a "holy" one. The answer may go even farther than religion. I think race and nationality play a big part. I use this analogy: The way OBL and his people follow a perverted form of Islam, can be loosely compared to the KKK claiming to be "Christian."

I like your analogy! Suppose the KKK launched an attack on a large African city. They were hiding out here in America and the African nation told us to hand them over. Of course, we most probably would. BUT - if we didn't, how many Americans would allow that nation to send armed troops into our land to find the KKK? Not many.

True. But also remember that we have offered certain incentives--for instance, to Pakistan--to do so. Pakistan is taking a big risk. Diplomacy has never been so important. Understanding between nations has never been so important. It's a HUGE challenge. Thanks for your interesting thoughts and commentary, pocat.

Words of wisdom:

The barbarism that is happening in the world today under the name of "Islamic Terrorism" is completely removed from the moral teachings of the Qur'an; it is the work of ignorant, bigoted people, criminals who have nothing to do with religion. The solution which will applied against these individuals and groups who are trying to commit their deeds of savagery under the guise of Islam, will be the instruction of people in the true moral teaching of Islam.

I would like to know how telling the truth about the Islam and it's bloody and violent history "hurts" my country??

Because "the truth" in this frenzied state is very distorted, that's how. How is it a "disservice" to America?? Why is celebrating a religion that advocates, no, COMMANDS, its followers to torture and kill unbelievers "patriotic"?? If the truth hurts this country, we are in worst shape than I thought!

Islam does not command any such thing. And nobody asked you to celebrate it. The President of the United States only asked you to avoid persecuting muslims. If you are not up to the task, if you are full of fear, admit it. But don't add to hysteria, don't give the terrorists credence by lashing out at Islam. You are aiding and abetting the terrorists indirectly by doing so.

Hindus are so peaceful, they won't even kill animals, and I believe Hindus get along with people of all religions except Muslims.

Genocide of Christians

You were on the money with your historical precis of the Wahabi, who are the bad boys of the Sunni tradition in Islam. However, your author ignores the fact that the Shiites also have a long history of martyrdom, suicide, and reveling in death and gore. They and the Wahabi have a mutual antipathy which goes back to the grandsons of Mohammed. Although like all Muslims, they never met a Jihad they didn't like, so for that, they'll get together.

The Saudis are a very recent historical phenomenon, only finally unifying the country in the 1930's after a series of wars and slick diplomacy that lasted from 1915 onward. Mecca, Medina and the Asir(last to be conquered) were the Kingdoms of the Hashemites. After losing Mecca and Medina to the Saudis, they received Jordan and Iraq from Britain. Jordan of course, is still a Hashemite Kingdom, Iraq's king having been overthrown by Saddam Hussein's predecessors in a Baathist military coup supported bt Syria.

Saudi Arabia is the personal property of the Saud dynasty.Not wildly popular in many regions of the country, they are sitting on a volcano. They have a wildly exploding population that will not work, and which can no longer be supported on the lavish dole to which Saudi nationals had become accustomed. The overwhelming majority of the country's enterprises, large and small, are run by a huge corps of expatriate workers from around the globe (and of which I was one.)So the Saudis have to pay the ex-pats to get any (and I do mean any) work done and at the same time, still keep up a very expensive fast-fading welfare state for their nationals. I know this sounds silly, but the Saudi government is often strapped for cash!

The Saudi royals are deathly afraid ObL is going to oust them, and it ain't gonna be pretty. Many wealthy Saudis are hedging their bets by supporting ObL and his causes.

One solution the Saudis are considering: a grandstand play to reclaim Arab leadership by defusing the Israeli situation, and getting rid of Saddam Hussein at the same time. They want to give the Palestinians part of Iraq ... a part with oil. It's not a real country anyway, having been invented by the British Foreign Office in 1916. Give the Kurds the Northeast Corner and some oil. Split the rest between Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan(Jordan is desperate for an oil well or two.) Restore Mesopotamia as the land between the rivers and forget about it until the next time. (Well, at least it's a plan.)

Saudis figure it would give them something to do with their restless youth besides watching them follow ObL around: get them out of Dodge and homesteading, i.e. working.

You tell us why Turkey continues to evade the truth about the slaughter and genocide against the Christian Armenians. Is this a governmental policy, this ongoing lie, rather than one of Islam and which was the genocide itself? After all Armenia existed for hundreds of years alongside Turkey but suddenly, in the century just passed, there was the genocide and now the false representation that it did not happen. Was this a product of Attaturk's secular state or of Islam? Americans, who know many Armenians ans well as many Turks, both of whom are now American, would like to know.

It's really all a very tricky balancing act.

It is, Jim, but I'm not so cynical that I think this is "all about oil." I admit to being a political moderate, and cynical myself sometimes, but I don't think that the lives of seven thousand people can be discounted, and I don't think that our ideals of freedom and values of humanity all around the globe can be discounted either. Just think of how many people from so many different countries were present here and killed during this massacre! Our belief in that kind of freedom has been challenged, to say the least. We are such a large country, made up of this idealistic belief that people of the world can live here and work here and play here together.

Just tonight my daughter, whom we're nickel-and-diming through college (she's working, too) said that she wanted to major in American Studies. That's not a major I've heard of too often, and when I asked her why she might choose that, ONE of the things she said was: "And besides, I want to learn about what the immigrants did for fun! I read that they went to Coney Island." ?? She went on: "The rich people didn't have to work as much, and the immigrants at one point in the east could only get to Coney Island."

Sorry to babble. Your post makes sense, but I'm not quite that cynical yet!

Horse hockey! If they are NOT true muslims, then why do the "true muslims" tolerate them? The truth is, when a "true muslim" is wetting his pants, that's when he screams that the terrorists have no connection with his religion. Time for the "true muslims" to realize that the terrorists are the real muslims, and that the "true muslims" are being lead down the garden path.

Well it's not the "true muslim's" fault that these people are using Islam to manipulate ignorant people to kill other people, is it? As far as tolerance goes, I think we're about to see a sea-change about that--Turan is evidence of that.

Francohio, your post is an excellent example of the burrs and nettles that plague us when we begin to merge fundamentalist religion and politics.

Then why aren’t they roundly denounced by the true Islamics? Why aren’t they driven out of their midst? Why can’t these true Muslims explain what all these rather frightening passages in the Koran really mean?

Are you aware that there are passages in Psalms that refer to people bashing other's heads against rocks? And this is just the beginning. As for being roundly denounced, that is what Turan is attempting to do here. You can't understand that?

I'm just asking you who excommunicated bin Laden and the terrorists from Islam, you are claiming they are not "true" Muslims because true Muslims don't believe in violence. If a Southern Baptist minister starts claiming all Catholics will go to hell, maybe he stays in that religion, but if he steps further and tells his congregation to kill all Catholics, the Southern Baptists would throw him out. The Lutherans have a way to disown Lutherans who overstep, the Catholics have excommunication. I don't think anyone has excommunicated a single terrorist from Islam.

That's not what your post conveyed to me, Fitz. And I never said that muslims don't believe in violence. I don't think there's any culture or religion on this good earth that hasn't participated in violence, unfortunately. I don't know that Islam has any notion of "excommunication" as we know it, of a tossing out. Maybe that's a question for Turan. I think that he was attempting to do something like that with his post, but all he got was criticism. In any case, these fundamentalist, phony followers of Islam are about to be castigated in a way they never dreamed of, I am thinking, because people like Turan who are good and faithful muslims with a knowledge of that scripture are about it. Wait and see.

Why did you tell yourself to watch your own back?

In any case, these fundamentalist, phony followers of Islam are about to be castigated in a way they never dreamed of, I am thinking, because people like Turan who are good and faithful muslims with a knowledge of that scripture are about it. Wait and see.

I hope you're right. Maybe the religion needs to make a couple of reforms so they have a way to excommunicate certain types like other religions have. I know there are good people who call themselves Muslims but if they don't have a way right now to cut off the other kind, they need to find a way.

It is possible to search the Qur'an online for certain words. Since a search for the word "gospel" brings up many references to the Gospel and it is obvious that the Qur'an is referring to the Gospel as being from Allah, why is the Gospel contradicted in so many points by the Qur'an? Would God contradict Himself so much? If Muslims believe the Gospel has somehow been corrupted and changed over time, how would they think that Allah, who surely they consider to be all powerful, would allow his words to be corrupted and changed? And if Muslims believe Allah allowed corruption or change in one communication from him, would they similarly believe Allah had allowed corruption and change to occur in the Qur'an since they also believe it to be from him? Can it be logical to think corruption and changes could occur in one and not the other? And if there were not corruption, how then can the contradictions [between the Gospel and the Qur'an] be explained?

Sorry, I found just one more link that seemed interesting and pertinent to the topic at hand.

Hindus are so peaceful, they won't even kill animals, and I believe Hindus get along with people of all religions except Muslims.

You clearly have not been following what has been going on in India lately, and the efforts of the BJP against Christian missionaries.

Poor Turan, he doesn't mean any harm, doesn't have anything against any of us. He just wants to let people know that in his own view, his religion is one of peace. Really, any one of us could have quotes from the Bible, or various theologians, fathers, rabbis thrown at us that we'd find it hard to justify. I did on an earlier occasion post some Bible quotes that Christians and Jews would find it hard to defend, and others have done the same. I'm not going to do it again. With a minimal amount of digging people could find them. They could also compare the behavior of the first Christian crusaders to take Jerusalem, with that of Saladin, the Muslim who reconquered the city. Some people get a lot of mileage out of the Christianity and Judaism versus Islam schema. In history, you would have found very deep enmity at various points between Christians and Jews. It would have been surprising to some of our ancestors how effortlessly the phrase Judeao-Christian tradition trips off our tongues. My point isn't that Islam is better, just that virtually all religions -- certainly all monotheistic religions, and many others besides -- have had their persecutions and episodes of violence. I don't know about Buddhism. It may escape this curse by turning its back on this world entirely. If one wants to argue that today's Islam is more violent than Christianity one may have a good case for it, but the next step wouldn't be cursing the religion, but trying to overcome its negative side, either within the religion or outside of it. Even if people want to proselytize, there are better ways of doing it than tearing down everything the man believes in, as some have done.

as Jesus said would be a Sign -- explicitly, three full days and three full nights constituted the Sign. Posted by ankaboot

Uh, please share with me in which biblical text passages you found that. Thank you ... we could use the chapter and verse where Jesus said the quote you claim.

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Scofield Reference Bible)

"For as Jonah was in the whale's belly three days and three nights, so the son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Peshitta, Lamsa translation)

"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Kingdom Interlinear -- Jehovah's Witnesses)

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Revised Standard Version)

"For as Jonah was in the belly of the sea-monster for three days and three nights, so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights." (Jerusalem Bible)

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Authorized (King James) Version)

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (New International Version)

I'll refrain from doing a fresh translation from the Arabic, which says the same thing: three days and three nights. Did I miss any?

In any case, three days and three nights, not two nights and parts of three days. Muhammad spent three days and three nights in a cave south of Makkah, during the flight (Hijrah) mentioned in Isaiah.

Let me see now ... Friday afternoon, plus the night between Friday and Saturday, plus Saturday, plus the night between Saturday and Sunday, plus Sunday morning ... doesn't seem to add up to three days and three nights to me. Of course, the "son of man" is a specific individual in Hebrew Scripture, very thoroughly identified as to what he does, and Jesus did none of it, that's what he's expected to do when he returns -- all the things that the son of man is said to do in Hebrew Scripture.

That Muhammad did.

was-salaam,
ankaboot
--
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.