Treason-Murder-on USS LIBERTY

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Topic: White Water

Treason-Murder-on USS LIBERTY

Anerican Legion

On June 8, 1967 the USS Liberty while operating in international waters was deliberatelly attacked by Israel war planes and torpedo boats killing 34 US Navy Personal while using bombs, naphalm, torpedoes and other US Taxpayer supplied materials.An, urgent "May Day" call for help was issued to the fleet but someone had the planes called back (who was that traitor?)The attack continued for another hour. The life rafts were machine-gunned (A War Crime) a deflated life raft was taken back to their base. The Israels claimed they thought this was an Egyptian ship. This is refuted by all the evidence, which can be read in "The Assult on the Liberty" by Janes M. Ennes Jr. a US Navy Officer survivor aboard the ship.

To: Common Cents

The truth about what happened in the attack on the Liberty came out several years ago and is nothing like the story told by the U.S. or the Israelis originally. Here it is:

The Liberty had been detached from Navy command and put under the command of the NSA and CIA. The Navy no longer had control over it. Hebrew language specialists were put on board when it left for the Middle East. It was off El Arish monitoring the radio communication of the Israeli units in the Sinai. The reason for it being there is unclear. Nevertheless, it was relaying its materials to the British Middle East listening post on Cyprus. The British, apparently with U.S. approval, were sending the information to the Egytians, who were losing badly. The great powers, at the insistence of oil interests friendly to the Arabs and to Lyndon Johnson, were giving the Egyptians the material to temper their losses. This occurred at the point at which the Israelis were stripping there units out of the Sinai to mount an attack on the Golan Heights against Syria, leaving their battle line with big holes. The information being collected was telling the Egyptians where the holes were, so they could counterattack.

The Israelis had a spy in the Egyptian high command who told them of the information coming in and the Israelis confirmed with overflights that it was being gathered by the Liberty. They asked the U.S. to withdraw the Liberty. The State department contacted the Navy, but they no longer had control of the ship, and along the way, the order to withdraw never reached the Liberty. The Israelis attacked the Liberty to prevent the Egyptians from gaining the information necessary to counterattack through the now large holes the Israeli Sinai defense lines.

Even though completely beaten militarily, the Egyptians were resisting U.N. calls for a cease fire. When the Liberty was attacked and forced to withdraw, the Egyptians sued for peace within hours.

Draw your own conclusions.

From: Magician
5 06/08/1999 15:15:54 PDT

To: Magician
During our brief stopover in Rota, Spain, however, we had taken aboard several technicians and linguists sent by the National Security Agency especially for this mission. These men had been specially briefed on their assignment. They were trained in Russian and Arab languages; not a Hebrew linguist among them. And while the assignment remained a vague and general one, their primary interest was not the Israelis or even the Arab side of this war. The primary concern of these men was to learn more about several Soviet TU-95 bombers that had been stationed in Egypt by the Soviet government. The assignment: find out whether the aircraft were controlled by Egypt, as both governments claimed, or were in reality merely Soviet long range bombers stationed on Arab soil and under Soviet control. Jim Ennes
From: rubbertramp
21 06/08/1999 16:33:33 PDT

To: Magician
Horse manure all around! The captain and crew of the Liberty were regular Navy and have protested the attack on the ship for years after.

There is no evidence I have ever seen (please post sources) that the Liberty was a CIA or NSA ship. If so, why was there a regular Navy Captain in command who, I believe, received a Navy Cross or Medal of Honor for his heroism?

EVEN IF the ship was a CIA plant, it is TOTALLY ILLEGAL for the Israeli's to attack the ship whether it is emitting or not! That was a United States Ship under a United States flag and the Israeli's attacked it on purpose with knowledge that it was one of our ships.

Make no mistake about it, the Israeli's have a long history of taking our tax payers money (something like $10,000 per year per Israeli) and using some of it against us. Talk to the Marines who served in Beirut and you will find that the Israeli's were as big an enemy as the Palestinian guerillas. There was the case of an Israeli tank trying to force its way through Marine lines until a Marine Captain climbed atop the tank with his sidearm drawn and told the crew that if they went one forward one more foot, the Marines would take the tank out.

I know other American officers who did UN tours in Israel and told stories about lying in their cots listening to the screams of Palestinians being tortured by the Israelis. The Israeli government routinely uses torture to obtain information from Palestinians (this is accepted procedure).

Anyone who thinks that Israel has some special loyalty to the US other than the huge amounts of foreign aid we send needs to reexamine the situation.

Bottom line, the Israeli's had ZERO right in international or military law to attack a US ship operating in international waters no matter what that ship was doing. And the whole story that this ship was a CIA/NSA plant is just more propaganda from a nation that attacked our ship.
From: psbowen (psbowen@sangreal-group.com)
23 06/08/1999 16:40:24 PDT

To: rubbertramp
I can't challenge directly the account of Jim Ennes in his book.

However, the the war started the morning of June 5, and by 10 AM almost every aircraft on the Egyptian Air Force fields was scrap metal. Bcause of their ability to reach Iraeli cities, the bombers were high priority targets. Israeli command of the air was absolute afterwards, and the few aircraft that survivied the initial June 5 morning attack were also destroyed.

Invewi of the above, Ennes' account of NSA trying to monitor the bombers doesn't hold water because the Liberty didn't arrive off of the Sinai coast until June 8. Furthermore, If the Liberty was monitoring the airfields near Cairo, what was it doing off El Arish, where the only thing to monitor closely was the fighting in the desert.

From: Magician
27 06/08/1999 16:51:37 PDT

To: psbowen
If it is not a combatant engaged in the conflict

Ahem, there's the rub. International Waters are not a "safe haven" for neutrals if they are actively aiding either of the belligerents. You are only entitled to the protections of neutrality if you act like a neutral. I could be wrong, but I believe that active and intentional gathering of battlefield intelligence and provision of said to a belligerent is giving aid and comfort to that belligerent, and is a violation of neutrality. In that case, the opposing belligerent has a right to seek to eliminate the provision of aid and comfort.

If (I certainly do say if) it were proven that the Liberty was giving aid and comfort to the Egyptian military in the form of battlefield intel, the Israeli attack might have some justification.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
36 06/08/1999 17:51:17 PDT

To: Magician
We are supposed to believe that the US was aiding and abetting the Egyptians (who were at the time under the full support of the Soviet Union and received nothing from us) by sending them information via the British (the nation humiliated by Nassar and the Egyptians just 11 years prior at Suez) because the Israelis were winning the war too easily? And we were doing this because we were trying to get on the good side of the oil producing nations--many of whom were attacked by the Israeli's in the 1967 war?

This is an ENORMOUS stretch of the imagination. This requires us to turn our understanding of mid-east history and politics upside down to create a very feeble justification for an Israeli attack on the Liberty.

From: psbowen (psbowen@sangreal-group.com)
46 06/08/1999 18:11:54 PDT

To: Shropster

I did read the posts

Read the history of my posts before you assume a hostile attitude on my part toward the US or Americans.

No nation is obliged to add to the risks faced by its soldiers by tolerating hostile behaviour of a foreign ship, no matter what flag it flies.

You would not accept such behaviour if it was a fofreign ship risking US lives.

I an unrepentent. An elint feeding information to your enemy is a legitimate target during hostilities. Once you take sides, you cannot claim the status of a neutral

The only concession I might make is that Isreal ought to have, TIME PERMITTING AND WITH DUE REGARD TO THE SAFETY OF ITS OWN PERSONNEL, transmitted a "stop transmitting" demand, but it is too easy to sit here in peace and second guess decisions made during war.

I repeat. If Isreal shot up lifeboats, it is guilty of an offence. It is not guilty for shooting up Liberty itself.

Ad hominum attacks do not further the course of a debate.

From: Clive (chdove@home.com)
47 06/08/1999 18:12:47 PDT

To: Magician
What's it like on your planet? Even the former soviet collectors stayed out beyond the 12 mile limit. Liberty was also in these international waters. Most importantly the US would NEVER have admitted they had the capaability to listen too or worse yet break Israeli comms to the Egyptians. Hell we still won't hardly admit it to CNN and Ted Turner. The Israelis killed those people because they did not want the US to know what they were doing in a real live hot war. They knew they were bullet proof because of the huge Jewish presence/lobby in this country. No SARAH I am not anti-semetic so don't break out your customary canned flames. By the way the CO of LIBERTY was awarded the CMH for his actions that day. That's right a US Navy officer awarded the nations highest honor for action against Israel. (one of the requirements for the CMH is a hostile force can you say Jonathan Pollard).
From: bwana
48 06/08/1999 18:14:06 PDT

To: HurryingHoofbeats
Hoofbeats wrote "Kinda like when the British bombed the French fleet in port, during WWII. War is hell buddy boy, and you do what you have to do. Just what the U.S. would do to an ally, if it was perceived they were on the wrong side. Take the Serbs, for example."

No. The Israeli attack on the Liberty is not at all like the British bombing of the French fleet in WWII. The Israeli's attacked an allied ship supposedly to prevent intelligence from being disseminated while the British attacked the French fleet to prevent it from falling into Nazi hands. How are these events are similar?

And since when have the Serbs been our ally?

And how does the "War is hell, buddyboy" statement play into anything? Do you mean to say that anything goes in war? If so, then you are absolutely mistaken.
From: psbowen (psbowen@sangreal-group.com)
50 06/08/1999 18:17:47 PDT

To: bwana
While you are correct that non-superheterodyne ELINT receivers can not be detected, when a collecting ship reports via radio it can be detected. Also, you can infer that someone is collecting on you if they take action based on information they should not know, otherwise.

Believe it or not, this has actually happened to US forces, and we took actions to degrade the value of the information being collected against us.

However, you should be aware that if members of a certain intelligence agency were to drive by your house with some of their special equipment, they could tell you what TV channels you were watching, what game your kid was playing on his Nintendo, and what you were typing in your reply to a post.
From: SubMareener (landerso@ricochet.net)
63 06/08/1999 18:45:29 PDT

To: Gandalf_The_Gray, Magician, ALL
Just to give some background for the discussion, I looked up the International Law on the Subject. From Hague Conference XIII, 1907 - On The Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers in Naval War:

Article 6: The supply, in any manner, directly or indirectly, by a neutral Power to a belligerent Power, of war-ships, ammunition, or war material of any kind whatever, is forbidden.

The standard of neutrality is absolute. A Neutral vessel loses all protections of Neutrality if it supplies any war material (including active gathering and provision of material battlefield intelligence) to a Belligerent Power.

Article 8: A neutral Government is bound to employ the means at its disposal to prevent the fitting out or arming of any vessel within its jurisdiction which it has reason to believe is intended to cruise, or engage in hostile operations, against a Power with which that Government is at peace. It is also bound to display the same vigilance to prevent the departure from its jurisdiction of any vessel intended to cruise, or engage in hostile operations, which had been adapted entirely or partly within the said jurisdiction for use in war.

Espionage, by definition, is a hostile operation. Why else would we be holding Johnathon Pollard unless espionage is hostile by nature? If the Liberty were "fitted out" for espionage purposes, and did undertake espionage operations against the Israelis while under way, then the Liberty sacrificed all protections of neutrality.

This is not to say that Magician has proven his case that the Liberty was, in fact, engaged in espionage operations. Frankly, any substantiation he could provide for his claims would be welcome, and necessary, in order to elevate his allegations above the level of rumor.

However, his premise, by itself, appears to be legally correct. If the Liberty was engaged in espionage operations benfitting one Belligerent (Egypt) at the expense of another (Israel), then the Liberty, quite simply, was not at that point a Neutral ship. If the story is true (big "if"), then the Liberty, at that point and in that capacity, was a Belligerent ship. And Belligerent ships may be attacked by opposing Belligerents in any waters in the world in times of war.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
65 06/08/1999 18:47:00 PDT

To: Magician
I see another attempt by liberals to deny the truth. The facts were that it was monitoring the entire conflict, both sides and had not communications with Arabs whatsoever.

The TRRSCOM system used to relay all their data back to NSA prevented anyone within hundreds of miles radius of ever picking or receiving the signal. You see, this system was a Special Radar that transmitted a signal to the Moon and was bounced off to the East Coast and received by NSA. They only had a few hours each day when the moon was in a specific region of the sky to conduct this communication link.

How could they relay data to Egypt under these conditions. Also, that would require Egypt to have the same cryptographic equipment and keys for the ship to transmitt the data to them. Otherwise if it was in the clear, everyone would know.

The plain facts are they did not want anyone what so ever to know they were going to conduct their attack against the arabs. Even a friendly country as us.

So I suggest you regroup and redesign your smoke screen magic on the issue.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
67 06/08/1999 18:50:13 PDT

To: Magician
"If you spy during a war, you better figure that, if he can, the guy you're spying on is going to kill you". From: Magician
And the answer is: Bomb Israel like we do the Serbs????????????????
From: BilLies
69 06/08/1999 18:55:51 PDT

To: All
Perhaps I am being too cynical but maybe when they saw the name of the ship, "Liberty" they just couldn't help themselves..
From: Heavy (halfirish@crosswinds.net)
70 06/08/1999 18:56:12 PDT

To: spook
Spook,
Sometimes you can lead em to water but you can't ...... hee hee hee
By your name, we could probably have some good input
but then we would have to kill em all, and ourselves.
hee hee
Dit Dah, dit dah dit, dit dit dit dah, dit dah.
Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
71 06/08/1999 18:56:21 PDT

To: uncbob, bwana, CommonCents

(uncbob) The Israelis asked the State Department to have the ship withdrawn. The order was sent out but either never reached the ship or was sent by the Navy, who no longer had command of the ship, and was therefore ignored. When after many hours there was no sign of its withdrawl, and it continued to transmit, the decision to attack it was made. By the way, it was difficult to get pilots willing to attack the ship.

(bwana) Elint is indeed passive but becomes detectable when rebroadcast from the ship to a shore station.

(CommonCents) I agree with your patriotic spirit, but did it ever occur to you that maybe that crew shouldn't have been sent into harms way in that fashion? The same people who sent that crew out then made the decision to not defend them. It was much easier and less embarrassing to bury the incident in the pack of lies about it that persists until today.

Churchill once said that in wartime the truth is so precious that it must be protected by surrounding it entirely with lies.

From: Magician
72 06/08/1999 18:59:16 PDT

To: Magician
Bold off
From: Heavy (halfirish@crosswinds.net)
73 06/08/1999 19:02:48 PDT

To: Magician
Magican: You have put a bunch of bull on the screen regarding the U.S.S. Liberty.
I had been on board this ship only a few weeks prior to this incident regarding problems with one of their LPA antenna systems. This was a WWII Liberty ship with a max speed down hill with a heavy tail wind of roughly 10-12 knots.
The first attack was against the forward cargo compartment which had been converted into a operational center. This was to silence or prevent any attempt in radio for assistance. All subsequent attacks focused on the bridge and forward. Never was the engineering spaces hit. Any pilot or naval officer will tell you that you focus on the engineering, steerage and bridge if you intend to sink a ship.
The ship was able to reach Malta a distance of 700 miles by steaming in reverse. It was only because of the seamanship and skill of the skipper and the crew that it ever was able to reach port.
I suggest you obtain a copy of the book that was eventually published which also includes many photos that the crew simply refused to turn over upon reaching port.
I suggest you post factual data and not allegations. You see, I was a member of the cryptologic community at the time and know far more then you about the facts. However, there is still far more facts available in the public arena that support my position on the incident then could remotely support yours. Your friends committed cold blooded murder of my shipmates.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
74 06/08/1999 19:04:19 PDT

To: HurryingHoofbeats
The 6th Fleet (based in the Med) should have responded, but didn't.
It is an act of war to attack a ship in international waters.
From: Citizen Tom Paine (twolfo19@idt.net)
75 06/08/1999 19:04:23 PDT

To: Magician
Magician,
I'm almost afraid to ask you about the U.S.S. Pueblo. This was another
FUBAR!!!

Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
76 06/08/1999 19:06:10 PDT

To: Magician
Magician: Not everyone has been lying. Only those trying to conceal what they did to American sailors in international waters in cold blood.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
77 06/08/1999 19:06:32 PDT

To: spook
Spook,
Tell it like it is buddy! Were you a CTM? Just wondering here in Phoenix.

Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
78 06/08/1999 19:09:56 PDT

To: spook - What are you smoking?
The plain facts are they did not want anyone what so ever to know they were going to conduct their attack against the arabs. Even a friendly country as us.
What a load of happy Crap!
The Liberty attack occurred on June 8 --- the third day of the Six Day War. You honestly expect us to believe that the Israelis attacked the Liberty to keep us from finding out about a war that was already half over?
Now that's a creative interpretation of "plain fact"!
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
79 06/08/1999 19:10:14 PDT

To: CTRC
Chief, if you go to the National Cryptologic Museum (open to the public), located just off the entrance to Fort Meade from MD rt 32, you will find a complete list of the ship's crew who were killed in action. The Israelis STILL have a lot to answer for the sinking of the USS Liberty.
I was sitting in a bar in Saigon when I first heard of this enemy action.
From: Ax
80 06/08/1999 19:11:55 PDT

To: Magician
Magician: Your post on the torpedo and etc is all bullshit. For factual evidence, the attack continued for over two hours. First by torpedo boats launching torpedos which struck the forward hold, cannon fire and machine gun fire against those topside.
Planes flew over and attacked and only after two hours of receiving cannon and machine gun fire, torpedo attacks from both ship and aircraft did they finally stop.
What the skipper told them when they wanted to know if they needed assistance was GO TO HELL.
Sorry Magician your case is full of hot air, bovine droppings and wishful dreams.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
81 06/08/1999 19:12:00 PDT

To: SubMareener
another Warren Zevon fan. I knew I read this thread for a reason.
'Detox Mansion'
From: Boyd
82 06/08/1999 19:14:52 PDT

To: Magician
The magician takes the stage, before him
Truth
He speaks the words, "Presto Chango!"
POOF!
Lies
I ain't buying it!
From: Heavy (halfirish@crosswinds.net)
83 06/08/1999 19:15:25 PDT

To: Clive
CLive:
God help us if your idea of being on the high seas making use of electrical signals that come you way as justification for being attacked. This is why they have such concepts as 12 mile limits for state or country control and the high seas free to everyone else.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
84 06/08/1999 19:17:27 PDT

To: Citizen Tom Paine
Not if the ship is already a Belligerent. Provision of battlefield intel is a belligerent act. The question does not hinge on International Waters --- Belligerents may be attacked in International Waters. The question is: what precisely was the Liberty doing 100 miles away from the Sixth Fleet, sitting off the coast of the Israeli-Egyptian border? Was there, in fact, espionage benefitting the Egyptians, as Magician claims?
If there was, if, then the Liberty was not a Neutral ship - she was a Belligerent. And Belligerents may certainly be attacked in times of war.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
85 06/08/1999 19:17:49 PDT

To: Boyd
After "Roland", my favorites are "Lawyers, Guns and Money", followed closely by "The Envoy". Maybe the bold will go off, but this thread will go on and on!
From: SubMareener (landerso@ricochet.net)
86 06/08/1999 19:19:19 PDT

To: Ax
Ax,
I was sitting a posit at NSGA Torii Station, Okinawa. As I said in an earlier
post, I knew two of the dead. What really gripes my a**
is that there is so much B.S. about this!!!
Oh well, I lived in Meade Heights(government slums)
in Odenton, MD., but still on Ft. Meade proper while
stationed there. Saw the moon walk(giant step for man, etc) in Command
center at NSA.
Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
87 06/08/1999 19:21:03 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Uriel, with all due respect, THIS WAS A DELIBERATE ATTACK! The Israeli lobby in this country has squelched it for years. As a fellow Christian, I have long respected your opinions, but so many Christians feel compelled (Biblically) to defend Israel on every issue. I'm sorry, but this never has washed with me. Israel has been a corrupt Socialist nation for years (kinda like the United States!)
From: Northpaw (angry@GOP.com)
88 06/08/1999 19:28:28 PDT

To: All
And just in case you think this was a "fluke", you might want to check another incident that occured less than two years later. This also involved a companion ship to Liberty - the Pueblo - AGER-2
For those that don't remember, Pueblo was attacked by North Korea while in international waters - doing much the same as Liberty. Crew was captured and held for almost a year. Ship was captured - lots of comm equipment, etc. lost to the other side.
Source: CMDR Lloyd M. Boucher, USN - Captain, USS Pueblo
From: jambe
89 06/08/1999 19:29:40 PDT

To: Clive
Clive:
your remarks about ELINT reveal your total lack of intelligence on the subject. Between you and Magician arguments reveal your confuse factual events and capability with your wish or hatred of the U.S.
You say they arrived on the 8th and was attacked on the 8th. The reality of this is it takes time to collect information in a passive mode that will make sense and can be confirmed. NOw suppose you are correct, how could they assimulate all this data, relay the information back to the States and they in turn submit to the arabs and this spy get this news back to Isreal for them to plan the attack. Just the time element makes this senairo impossible.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
90 06/08/1999 19:29:52 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Uriel:
Your logic is very selective and changes position constantly.
First in regard to Pollard, he was an American Citizen conducting this activity on home soil. MOst other countries that would result in the firing squad, not life in prison.
Intelligence collected on other nations is not what you argue it is. That is unless this raw data is delivered to one of the nations in the conflict. However, collecting this information for our own internal use is not a violation of international law. Especially when it is done on the high seas and not within the confine of that country's borders.
That is reality.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
91 06/08/1999 19:36:58 PDT

To: Northpaw
The question is, was it a deliberate attack on a Neutral ship, or was it a deliberate attack on a Belligerent ship? IF the Liberty was not collecting intel, or was transmitting collected intel only to the US, then it was an attack on a Neutral ship - and that is a criminal act, and an act of war. IF, on the other hand, Magician is correct - that the Liberty was sharing material battlefield intel with a Belligerent Power (Egypt), then it was an deliberate attack on a Belligerent ship. In war, Belligerents may be deliberately attacked.
Did, or did not, the Liberty undertake any action that violated her Neutrality and exposed her to the appropriate dangers of Belligerency? Under, for example, CIA/NSA command and without the crew's full knowledge? Don't presume to think that I'm claiming to know the answer... But that, not the deliberation or lack thereof, is definitely the question.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
92 06/08/1999 19:39:29 PDT

To: spook

Assume you are in a desparate struggle. Assume there is an elint in your theatre and that it is transmitting. Assume that you asked the owners of said elint to remove it and after a period of time it was not removed.
HOW LONG ARE YOU WILLING TO RISK YOUR TROOPS?
You must act on capabilities. You do not have time to read a Miranda card to the elint.

From: Clive (chdove@home.com)
93 06/08/1999 19:42:14 PDT

To: psbowen
"And since when have the Serbs been our ally?" from psbowen
.
------------------------------------------------------
Psbowen, I suggest you ask the over 500 shot-down U.S flyers who were saved from the Germans by Serbian General Draza Milhalovitch and his Chetniks during WWII your question, ""And since when have the Serbs been our ally?"
.
I AM WASTING MY TIME POSTING THIS HERE BUT I'LL POST IT ANYWAY.
.
It was Winston Churchill who betrayed the WWII Serbian general Draza Milhalovitch and threw the West's backing behind Tito, only to find out once the war ended that he had put a communist in control of Yugoslavia.
See David Martin's books "Ally Betrayed" (c.1946) and "The Web of Disinformation--Churchill's Yugoslav Blunder" (1990-Harcourt,Brace,& Jovanovich).
Through 50 years of research David Martin proved that it was James Klugman, a communist mole who worked in the wartime British intelligence office in Cairo, who took out Milhalovitch's name every time a dispatch came from Yugoslavia regarding M's blowing up of another Nazi train, etc., and inserted the name Tito. This went on until Churchill, believing these altered dispatches, said, "Who is this great hero Tito, and why isn't Milhalovitch doing anything any more?"
Churchill abandoned Milhalovitch and began sending supplies only to Tito, effectively cutting Milhalovitch's throat.
Milhalovitch's great accomplishment during the war was his stopping of Rommell (sp?) from getting supplies (tank parts) since they had to be transported on trains which had to pass through Yugoslavia to get to Africa.
Tito's main action during the war was attacking Milhalovitch from the rear or side once Milhalovitch was engaged in a battle with the Germans.
After the war, Tito captured Milhalovitch and executed him after a Star Chamber trial.
When Tito accused Milhalovitch of collaborating with the Germans, over 500 US and Canadian fliers who had been saved by Milhalovitch after being shot down by the Germans in Yugoslavia descended upon Washington, demanding that the US government do something to protect Milhalovitch. Roosevelt and his Secretary of State refused to even acknowledge their communications. The US and Britian did nothing and sat by while Tito executed Milhalovitch.
To this day the US State Department refuses to acknowledge any communication from these fliers, who want to build a monument to Milhalovitch in Washington.
It is ironic and sick that this many decades later, in the form of the heavily drugged Bill Clinton, the US is actually trying to bomb Serbia off the face of the earth,with the eager help of England [and Germany ! ].
I am glad David Martin, (a Canadian flyer) who devoted his life to trying the correct the record on Milhalovitch, did not live to see this sick and unbelievable spectacle taking place now.
From: Joe Montana
94 06/08/1999 19:44:04 PDT

To: Spook

Further to my reply. I reject your contention that I am acting from hatred of the US. Read the many posts on Free Republic in which I am supportive of Americans, Bubba excepted.

From: Clive (chdove@home.com)
95 06/08/1999 19:46:35 PDT

To: CTRC
CTRC:
Oh yes, I was a CTMC(SS) before becomine a Loud Damn Obnoxious (LDO). I spent 27 years in the business starting in 1947 as a Specilist "Q" stricker that was a letter"Q" inside a diamond. Then in 1948 everyone in the group became CT's.
There is a book called BLIND MAN'S BLUFF that picks up after I left the submarine program that was interesting.
Are you a member of the NCVA? It is where everyone goes to recall the good old days chasing ditties and etc.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
96 06/08/1999 19:47:29 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Your premise of justification (under international law) for the attack of a 'BELLIGERENT' ship falls apart based on Israel's claim that it was a 'tragic mistake'. If they were justified, then they were justified! They could bring forth evidence. No, they just didn't want us to be aware of their military movements......and with their Congressional allies, they were emboldened!
From: Northpaw (angry@GOP.com)
97 06/08/1999 19:47:35 PDT

To: Uriel1975
You over look the Sinai Desert campaign that started about that time. Stop smoking what ever you are as it is clouding your biased and illogical presentation.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
98 06/08/1999 19:50:56 PDT

To: All

This is an explosive issue, and I expected the reactions that have occurred in response to my comments on the original post of this thread. It is getting late, and I will just leave everyone with a few questions they can ask themselves while they decide if the Israelis attacked the Liberty by mistake, for a reason, or maybe because they just enjoy killing Americans on Navy ships (guys like me).
1. Does anyone really think that the Israeli pilots who overflew the ship couldn't see its identifiers and the American flag it was flying?
2. Having the ship's plans in their possession, does anyone think they didn't know just what this antenna laden vessel was?
3. In the midst of a shooting war, does anyone believe that the Israelis mounted a coordinated attack on a ship of their strongest ally just for the pleasure of it?
4. What could that ship have been doing that would have been viewed as so serious that it was found necessary to attack it?
5. What was so sensitive about the Liberty's mission that our own people felt that they had to bury the affair as fast as possible?
No one in this forum would doubt that our government lies to us right and left. What makes anyone think that our government (and the Isrealis) hasn't been lying to us about the background to this incident.

From: Magician
99 06/08/1999 19:54:17 PDT

To: spook
Of course it's not a violation of international law to collect intel for our own usage. Please re-read my posts. Please note the number of times which I specifically qualified the intel-gathering as needing to be "provided to a Belligerent" - "against Israel" - "benefitting the Egyptians" - etc., in order to constitute a violation of neutrality.
Also note that I have never stated that Magician has proven his case - quite the contrary, I rather wish he would try a little harder... a bit weak on the evidentiary side, though he maintains he has his reasons.
My point is that his claim, that the intel-gathering was provided to a Belligerent Power (Egypt), would in fact constitute a violation of Neutrality on the part of the Liberty. Not just being in the area, nor gathering intel for our internal usage; but if his claims of provision of intel to Belligerents are factual, then yes, yes it would.
Once you have re-read my posts to re-verify that, yes, I am stating that it would require provision of intel to Belligerents to violate neutrality, consider this:
Do you honestly believe that the "reality" is that Israel attacked a US ship to keep us from finding out about a pre-emptive strike that had already taken place three days before?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
100 06/08/1999 19:57:38 PDT

To: Magician
I don't believe that the Geneva Convention or any form of international law protects those engaged in espionage, regardless of their nationality, particularly during a shooting war.Collecting electromagnetic radiation, which is available to everyone, and making deductions from that publicly available material, does not constitute espionage in terms of the law of war.
From: aristeides (demosthenes@olg.com)
101 06/08/1999 19:59:06 PDT

To: Clive
Clive:
Elint is strictly passive receiving of electro magnetic signals that are in the air that may or may not originate in the country. REceiving these signals for our own internal use does not justify hostile action against our ship on the high seas. Russia does that all the time. It is recognized under international law as within each countries' rights.
The is no way that any country can tell another county what they can do while outside their borders regarding electro magnetic signals. I suggest you pull your head out of the southern region and look around. If you logic was valid, hell every country could demand payment for water picked up over their land and returned to earth on another country's land. Wow!! Another liberal right has been defined!!!!!
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
102 06/08/1999 20:01:59 PDT

To: aristeides
It does constitute espionage if it is gathered about your order of battle and then supplied to your enemy's high command. At that point the people engaging in this activity can be regarded as belligerents for the other side.

From: Magician
103 06/08/1999 20:06:47 PDT

To: spook
Spook,
Don't know if you ever ran into a couple of buds of mine:
Don Krell or Don Cummings? Krell was at Pearl and
Cummings goes back to the "H.I.T.W.G." My stas: Tuslog
Det 28, NCTC Pensacola, U.S.S. Shangri La, U.S.S.
Forrestal, NSGA Torii Sta, Pensacola again "B" school,(P & R), NSGA Ft. Meade, Md, NSGA Misawa, etc.
Greatest damn time I ever had! Sometimes, sandcrabs p*ss me off though! hee hee
OBTW, Chica and Hammond were with me
at "A" school.

Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
104 06/08/1999 20:08:26 PDT

To: rubbertramp
Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so. We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag. The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic Museum, Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the the USS Liberty Images Archive
I found this at "www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty"
From: scouse (fenlon@webtv.net)
105 06/08/1999 20:09:10 PDT

To: spook - sorry, making up history is not allowed.
You over look the Sinai Desert campaign that started about that time. Stop smoking what ever you are as it is clouding your biased and illogical presentation.
Sorry, making things up to support your view is not allowed. Started about that time? Started? Wrong. IDF Armor broke out of the Gaza frontier area on June 5-6. By June 7 they were halfway across the Sinai. By June 8 Israeli forward elements had reached the banks of the Suez Canal.
You call that "Started"? It was practically finished!
Now, in that situation, I could see some suspicious, paranoid Israelis not wanting the Egyptians getting ahold of critical intel that could turn the tide. But your contention that Israel attacked the Liberty to keep us from finding out what they were going to do is laughable. Going to do> They'd already done it!
Just "started" the Sinai Campaign about that time, my left eyeball...
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
106 06/08/1999 20:12:49 PDT

To: spook - sorry, making up history is not allowed.
You over look the Sinai Desert campaign that started about that time. Stop smoking what ever you are as it is clouding your biased and illogical presentation.
Sorry, making things up to support your view is not allowed. Started about that time? Started? Wrong. IDF Armor broke out of the Gaza frontier area on June 5-6. By June 7 they were halfway across the Sinai. By June 8 Israeli forward elements had reached the banks of the Suez Canal.
You call that "Started"? It was practically finished!
Now, in that situation, I could see some suspicious, paranoid Israelis not wanting the Egyptians getting ahold of critical intel that could turn the tide. But your contention that Israel attacked the Liberty to keep us from finding out what they were going to do is laughable. Going to do? They'd already done it!
Just "started" the Sinai Campaign about that time, my left eyeball...
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
107 06/08/1999 20:12:59 PDT

To: Magician
Magician........that sounds about right. I remember hearing this story several years ago. Sometimes we are too clever for our own good. The Israeli's did what they should have done......when an ally is feeding info to your enemy, he becomes the enemy.
I'm generally "America, right or wrong, America is my country", so America is right".
This incident and Bill's little slaughter in Kosovo are two events that come to mind where we are, or were, wrong.
From: Hardstarboard (mercerg@aol.com)
108 06/08/1999 20:18:12 PDT

To: spook
Collection of any form of intelligence on one party and supplying it to the other side is a belligerent act during a shooting war. Even if in international waters, a ship performing this task has lost its neutality and is liable to be attacked. If the Liberty had been a French ship, everyone here would be congratulating the Israelis for sticking it to the frogs.

From: Magician
109 06/08/1999 20:19:11 PDT

To: Hardstarboard
Hardstarboard,
B.S.
Regards From: CTRC
110 06/08/1999 20:21:36 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Uriel:
They knew what the capability of our ship was and knew where it was. They did not trust us or anyone else to know what they were planning in the desert. They just barely beat the Egypts in that desert battle, not like was publicly accepted as they losses for a small nation was quite stiff.
However, there were those in their government whom had a history of terrorism against the British considered us allies of the British sufficiently to assume we would reveal data to them.
If you would also check our own political world during this time you just might discover how afraid our politicans were of Israel supporters. For decades, any politican who publicly voiced a position contrary to that favorable to them, would automatically lose the next scheduled election. This included both Democrat and Republican politicans. It is only now in the 1990's you may notice some slight opposition to their position voiced by a few politicans. Time will tell if they lose their next election and continue this path of intimdation.
The Johnson Administration had numerous Jews in high places and were able to conceal the truth.
For example, CRITIC was a message system that was in place during this period that ensured any message sent to the President would be on his desk within 15 minutes. This system was used to transmit the first attack message. There were naval pilots and the Adm on the carrier in the Med received this message. They had launched aircraft in support but were recalled within a hour. All communication logs subsequently had a gap in message traffic. The military were responding, but LBJ and his aides didn't want to upset the apple cart. Plain and simple.
There was only one congressional hearing held concerning these kinds of incidents. That was on the U.S.S. Pubelo and never one on the U.S.S. Liberty. Why? Politicans afraid of their career.
The recent sham impeachment trial is another example of their lack of integrity and moral courage.
From: spook (wmhadley@digitaldune.net)
111 06/08/1999 20:22:00 PDT

To: Northpaw - sorry so long, here I am...
To answer you critique ---
Again, I do not claim that they were justified. I do not claim that the Liberty was engaging in Belligerent espionage... rather, I admit the possibilty that Magician could be right, and would very much like him to actually evidence his claims. But, he maintains he has his reasons.
Meanwhile, if he's right, then yes, the Israelis may have had justification under the rules of warfare - the ship may have been acting in a belligerent capacity. But having legal justification, and expecting the American public to see things that way, are two different things. Far better to claim it was a horrible mistake, apologize profusely, pay the survivors about $380,000 apiece (something the PLO, whom Bubba shakes hands with, has never done), and go on with your national life, than lose your only national friend in the world because you say, "yes, I did it on purpose, and I was RIGHT to do so!" Sometimes (again, assuming this posit is even true), trumpeting that you are in the right is not the diplomatically healthy thing to do.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
112 06/08/1999 20:22:38 PDT

To: rubbertramp
You wrote: "Just illustrates what happens when false flags are flying under the aegis of the UN. Sounds like the UN just abandoned these men who didn't even realize that that was their mission, if it was their mission."
I do not want to flame you but I suggest you NOT post about things you do not really know about. To do so can create real mis-information. Specific: The Liberty was not flying a false flag. It was flying an American flag according to the testimony. The Israelies ignored that. The ship was not working under UN sponsorship or UN cover.
From: NetValue
113 06/08/1999 20:23:39 PDT

To: Hardstarboard

As the old saying goes, "My country, right or wrong. My mother, drunk of sober".
Fair enough, but the same privilege should be allowed to citizens of all countries.

From: Clive (chdove@home.com)
114 06/08/1999 20:24:26 PDT

To: Magician
The US was not actually furnishing the collected intelligence to Egypt. The Israelies SUSPECTED we were doing that. Nevertheless, this US ship was in a combat zone, performing its intelligence collection......combat zones can be called "risky" places.
From: NetValue
115 06/08/1999 20:28:16 PDT

To: spook

You are confusing the 1967 and 1973 wars. The Israelis barely beat the Egyptians in 1973. The Liberty incident was in 1967. In that war, The Isrealis went through the Egyptians like s--t through a goose.

From: Magician
116 06/08/1999 20:32:43 PDT

To: spook - why do you hold to this strange myth?
They did not trust us or anyone else to know what they were planning in the desert.
I have already told you that this is, well, just not true. By June 8, the "planning" was done, gone, over with! Do you want me to get you the name of the IDF General who was sitting on the banks of the Suez by June 8? If you want, I will! The Israelis weren't "planning" anything in the desert when the Liberty got hit... the Sinai campaign was already nearly won and over with. IF, as Magician maintains, the Israelis hit the Liberty on purpose, it was to keep the Egyptians from getting ahold of critical battlefield intel that could turn things around.
But by June 8 there weren't any "plans" to hide - the plans had all been executed three days before, the Israelis were already on the banks of the Suez by June 8.
You are treating me civilly and I appreciate that, so I really oughta return the favor. But why do you maintain that the Israelis did not want us to find out they were "planning to do" something they had already done?!?!
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
117 06/08/1999 20:34:09 PDT

To: NetValue
N.V.,
B.S.
Regards
CTRC
From: CTRC
118 06/08/1999 20:36:14 PDT

To: NetValue
Flying an American Flag, etc...
Two possible interpretations to consider:
1.) Near East Report's Myths and Facts: A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1989, p.43: "The Liberty's flag, according to the testimony of the crew members, may not have been discernible because there was little wind and the flag was knocked down after the first assault..."
2.) Magician's position - the Liberty was engaged in espionage directly benefitting a Belligerent, Egypt. This is a violation of Neutrality. Israel attacked on purpose, to prevent espionage, and was to at least some extent legally justified to do so in time of war.
Now, I don't know which one, or if either one, of these hypotheses is correct. But it is unreasonable not to look at possibilities.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
119 06/08/1999 20:43:02 PDT

To: NetValue
The Israelis had a spy in the Egyptian high command. That is why they were able to get the information that let them time their attacks on the Egyptian airfields so well, just when all the officers reporting for duty were caught in Cairo traffic. Their inside man was telling them that the Egyptians were receiving precise information on the Israeli order of battle in the Sinai from the British installation on Cyprus. The Israelis overflew the Liberty with a C-119 sniffer aircraft and determined that it was collecting and relaying just that sort of information. They asked the State Department to have the ship withdrawn, but the orders never got to the ship. When the ship didn't withdraw and kept collecting and transmitting data, the Israelis attacked it. Both the U.S. government and the Israelis lied like hell to protect themselves. The victims, of course, were the crew of the Liberty.

From: Magician
120 06/08/1999 20:46:52 PDT

To: psbowen
And if anyone wonders why our country is in big deep s..t,,,,just look at who Clinton has as advisors and the appointees he has placed in decision making positions. What I am saying here is that there seems to be a direct correlation of the mentality of the People in question and that of the mentality of Israelies. I am not amused anymore by the over representation of one minority ethnic group dictating how in the hell this Government should be run and what is in this Gentile's interest...at last count we were still something like a majority here, "in numbers only unfortunately". The reason I bring this up is that every time this story is told , we have to listen to a barrage of misinformation and anyone who insist on a complete inquiry is accused of the usual blah blah blah from the same blah blah blah people.
From: King of Ithaca
121 06/08/1999 20:47:55 PDT

To: Clive
You are right about ad hominum attacks.
You are wrong in being an appologist for Isreal's attack on the USS Liberty.
I did not mean to give offense, but anyone who thinks that Isreal considers us anyone but Uncle Sucker, needs a reality check.
From: Shropster (shrop@cyberhighway.net)
122 06/08/1999 20:49:32 PDT

To: spook
BTTT, to give you a chance to respond Re: my query to you posted above.... Why allegedly "hide the planning" of something that was already 3 days (four, counting June 5 air strikes and preliminary armored breakthroughs) over and done with?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
123 06/08/1999 20:59:00 PDT

To: Magician
The Israelis had a spy in the Egyptian high command. That is why they were able to get the information that let them time their attacks on the Egyptian airfields so well, just when all the officers reporting for duty were caught in Cairo traffic.
This is believable. Now, if you could post something, anything, evidencing this you will make your case a lot stronger. No, not stolen transcripts of ops reports, just something indicating that this guy existed like you say. (There must be something public, heck, there's public material on how Mossad got a guy to the No. 2 slot in Assad's Syria in the 70s).
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
124 06/08/1999 21:04:40 PDT

To: psbowen
Thank you for rebutting Magician's post...yours is in line with what I've followed of the Liberty; and info passed to me by an old Navy friend...the old rank and file want to know why.
Someone said the ships commander got some type of medal....yes, Medal of Honor...but the President wasn't up to giving it to him at the White House....he got his at a shipyard given by a higher ranking officer.
From: rowdee (ball1@dmi.net)
125 06/08/1999 21:17:09 PDT

To: King of Ithaca
Careful King! You might be labeled an anti-semite! The fate that awaits anyone who questions why we pour billions of dollars every year into Isreal! OOPS! I forgot.........they're our ally!!!!!
From: Northpaw (angry@GOP.com)
126 06/08/1999 21:17:15 PDT

To: Northpaw
Spelling correction......ISRAEL...sorry
From: Northpaw (angry@GOP.com)
127 06/08/1999 21:19:11 PDT

To: Northpaw
Your right....it is hard to believe it is "real". It is time to take the mask off these traitors who have been sucking our blood for way tooooo long.
From: King of Ithaca
128 06/08/1999 21:33:02 PDT

To: Northpaw

Let's not call anyone an anti-semite. Let's call them a duck. If they walk like a duck, quack like a duck and crap in the pond like a duck, they are undoubtedly a duck.

From: Magician
129 06/08/1999 21:43:42 PDT

To: Magician
If the ship was going on a suicide mission they should have informed the crew. I think these guys were betrayed by their government and those responsible should be tried for treason. LBJ and Mc Nammera come to mind. Someone called back those defending planes and should be exposed for what they are traitors. Sounds like the current occupant of the Whore House. Why is it that the media speaks of the China embassy bombing as an accidental bombing but never refers to the Impeached Clinton. Every mention of him should include this fact and use that adjectve. The impeached president is lying about------etc. This should not be treated like a badge of honor.
From: Common Cents
130 06/08/1999 22:19:01 PDT

To: Common Cents
from By Way of Deception by Victor Ostrovsky and Claire Hoy, St. Martin's Press (N.Y.), 1990, pp. 86-87:
The next day Ran S. delivered a lecture on the sayanim, a unique and important part of the Mossad's operation. Sayanim - "assistants" - must be 100 percent Jewish. They live abroad, and though they are not Israeli citizens, many are reached through their relatives in Israel. An Israeli with a relative in England, for example, might be asked to write a letter saying the person bearing the letter represents an organization whose main goal is to help save Jewish people in the diaspora. Could the British relative help in any way?
There are thousands of sayanim around the world. In London alone, there are about 2,000 who are active, and another 5,000 on the list. They fulfill many different roles........The idea is to have a pool of people available who can provide services but will keep quiet about them out of loyalty to the cause. They are paid only costs. Often the loyalty of sayanim is abused by katsas who take advantage of the available help for their own personal use.....
One thing you know for sure is that even if a Jewish person knows it is the Mossad, he might not agree to work with you - but he won't turn you in. You have at your disposal a nonrisk recruitment system that actually gives you a pool of millions of Jewish people to tap from outside your own borders.....
page 88:.....the Mossad regards the whole world outside Israel as a target, including Europe and the United States.
(back cover quote) "I was elated when I was chosen and granted the privilege to join what I considered the elite team of the Mossad.
But it was the twisted ideals and self-centered pragmatism that I encountered inside the Mossad, coupled with this so-called team's greed, lust, and total lack of respect for human life, that motivated me to tell this story.
It is out of love of Israel as a free and just country that I am laying my life on the line by so doing, facing up to those who took it upon themselves to turn the Zionist dream into the present-day nightmare."
Victor Ostrovsky
From: Ursus Magnus
131 06/08/1999 22:23:14 PDT

To: psbowen
If I recall correctly, COM6THFLT launched aircraft to assist the USS LIBERTY and LBJ/McNamara PERSONALLY, in no uncertain terms called them back
From: xrmusn
132 06/08/1999 22:41:12 PDT

To: Ursus Magnus

Of the six million Jews in the United States, only one has ever been accused of spying for Israel, Pollard. Either the Mossad and American Jews (sayanim?) do a lot of spying for Israel and don't get caught, or the gist of this post is B.S.
I know thousands of Jews, and I've never heard one mention being approached to gather intelligence for Israel.
From: Magician
133 06/08/1999 22:49:07 PDT

To: CTRC
IB "R" 1957 did 11 wks and decided I wanted to go to sea. Boy did they ever accomodate my crazy wishes--APA headed to Westpac--3 days in 2nd Div and found code pretty good after all. dit dah, dit dah dit.
From: xrmusn
134 06/08/1999 22:59:57 PDT

To: Northpaw
I'm disgusted by the fact that we pour money into propping up Israel's state socialism. It's a waste of our money on a failed economic system, early-to-mid-20th Century style Fabian Socialism. Granted, it's not a huge chunk of Federal cash - one dollar out out every $1,200 that the Government spends - but its nowhere in the Constitution; and in a small nation like Israel, its enough to prop up a lot of government largesse.
So I'm not going to call someone an anti-Semite for wanting to follow a Constitutional (zero, nada, zilch) foreign aid policy. That would make me one.
But I do think the "Israel attacked the Liberty on purpose, deliberately, because... because.... well, they're Israel, and therefore integrally evil and bad!" argument is perhaps not the best explanation for the tragedy. Maybe that's the way it is, maybe not. They've let us use Haifa and Ashdod as ports-of-call for the Sixth Fleet I don't know how many times, let our Sixth Fleet pilots use the Israeli Negev Desert as a land-target practice area --- torpedoing American ships (A.) deliberately and (B.) without cause just isn't the way they generally behave. So I think staying open to conjectures about the Liberty - different from the "official" story, and different from the knee-jerk anti-Israeli story too, is worth consideration.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
135 06/08/1999 23:12:22 PDT

To: Spook

Your contention that my sources must be all wet because the torpedo attack supposedly preceded the air attack is erroneous. The first call from Liberty concerning an air attack went out at 1158Z. The torpedo attack was reported by Liberty at 1315Z.

From: Magician
136 06/08/1999 23:15:01 PDT

To: rubbertramp
If you feel you must cravenly apologize for Israel.Go right ahead,but remember it flew Old Glory, not the U.N. flag.
From: fritz kuhn
137 06/08/1999 23:23:36 PDT

To: King of Ithaca
In 1981, against the public outcry of the Arab World, Israeli FighterBombers overflew the Saudi Desert and destroyed the Iraqi "Osirak" fast-breeder re-enrichment nuclear reactor. Given what we now know about the temperament of Mr. Saddam Hussein, it seems virtually certain that - had the Israelis not struck the danger when they did - our Desert Storm troops would've faced a foe armed with nuclear-tipped Scud missiles... or perhaps Hussein would've decided to try smuggling a warhead into the US proper.
In just a few short hours, Israel set back an aggressive, murderous dictators nuclear program by 10, maybe 15 years (Iraq is still trying to get back to where they were).
Now, "bloodsucking" like that, I'll take more of.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
138 06/08/1999 23:25:34 PDT

To: Magician
"sayanim" = "assistants"
"katsas" = "active agents"

Ostrovsky and Hoy, pp. 268-269:
Suspicions lingered...about Pollard's exact status, but it seems that even the CIA believes that apart from the odd questionable exercise, the Mossad, except for liason, simply does not operative [sic] actively in the United States itself.
Well, they're wrong.
Pollard was not Mossad, but many others actively spying, recruiting, organizing, and carrying out covert activities - mainly in New York and Washington, which they refer to as their "playground" - do belong to a special, super-secret division of the Mossad called simply Al, Hebrew for "above" or "on top".
This unit is so secretive, and so separate from the main organization, that the majority of Mossad employees don't even know what it does and do not have access to its files the computer
Back leaflet: Victor Ostrovsky was born in Canada of an Israeli mother and a Canadian Jewish father, but was raised in Israel. He became, at age 18, the youngest officer in the Israeli military. A weapons-testing expert, he was recruited by the Mossad and completed their extensive training program, becoming a katsa, or case officer, only to grow disillusioned with the organization's aims and operations. He is no longer a member of the Mossad. end quote.
From: Ursus Magnus
139 06/08/1999 23:25:44 PDT

To: Jim B.
The U.S.S. Liberty was identical to the Pueblo and the failure to investigate the matter then may have led to the capture of the Pueblo.However,my most vivid memory of the incident is that U.S.Sen.Jacob Javits (R-N.Y.) rushed to the floor of the Senate within a half hour of the attack to say it was an accident that Israel regretted.And here I thought as resident and voter in New York at the time that Javits was supposed to represent me and my fellow New Yorkers,all of them,not the Israeli lobby.It was for me a defining moment.Incidentally,for me it had one further personal complication,his cousins were my neighbors.
From: fritz kuhn
140 06/08/1999 23:34:57 PDT

To: Common Cents
Excellent reply to Magician.Dual loyalty,yes.It will never cease to be amazing to me the lengths the Israeli 5th column will go.They have no shame.But whose fault is it?The fault,common cents,is in ourselves collectively as Americans.Mencken said "it is not what people don't know that is the problem, but how much of they're knowing as true that ain't,that is".
From: fritz kuhn
141 06/08/1999 23:46:33 PDT

To: Tazzo
You have to ask?
From: fritz kuhn
142 06/08/1999 23:48:56 PDT

To: Magician
I guess I know what flag makes your heart skip a beat.It' not Old Glory.
From: fritz kuhn
143 06/08/1999 23:52:08 PDT

To: Ursus Magnus

I guess that the FBI and other agencies are totally incompetent at catching these clever spies who are all over New York and Washington. Of course, they seem to be able to identify American non-jews who spy, and Chinese nationals in our labs who are spying. I guess that the Jews are just to smart for them, and too well connected.
Nonsense. Jews are just as loyal or disloyal as any other group. Personally, I have been around for a lifetime and have never known anyone who was approached by the Mossad. It is a very small organization and it mainly concentrates on intelligence matters involving the Middle East.

From: Magician
144 06/08/1999 23:52:51 PDT

To: Magician
"It was'nt an error"
Right and you think it was OK and yet you say you were in our Navy(that's the U.S.,my 5th columnist),if true,do you remember the oath you took ,you weasel?
From: fritz kuhn
145 06/09/1999 00:02:12 PDT

To: King of Ithaca
As always you're on the money!
From: fritz kuhn
146 06/09/1999 00:09:25 PDT

To: Magician
Maybe you would be happy.But the French might have retaliated against your country as America should have.DeGaulle was in power then.The Israeli lobby has never been as influential there.
From: fritz kuhn
147 06/09/1999 00:15:43 PDT

To: Magician
What you mean to say is that Pollard was the only one caught.
From: fritz kuhn
148 06/09/1999 00:21:55 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
Maybe you would be happy.But the French might have retaliated against your country as America should have.DeGaulle was in power then.The Israeli lobby has never been as influential there.
Well, since the mighty and all-powerful Bilderberg-Elders of Zion Conspiracy-Israel Lobby is apparently the root of all Evil, I suppose you'll be moving to France soon. Take care, keep well, au revoir.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
149 06/09/1999 00:24:47 PDT

To: fritz kuhn

Javits didn't have a clue at the time. It has taken years for the truth on this matter to seep out. Anyone on the ship who was in the attack will tell you that it was deliberate. Maybe now you know why. Read the whole thread if you haven't already done so.
By the way, I don't take lightly having my allegiance to the United States questioned. My brother and I both enlisted in the armed forces at the height of the Vietnam war, although neither of us landed up being sent there as grunts. How many people participating in this thread do think have ENLISTED in the service during a shooting war? Not too many, I suspect.

From: Magician
150 06/09/1999 00:28:16 PDT

To: fritz kuhn

Let's turn this warped logic around.
Israel is continually waging war against Muslim people, and thereby
is supposed to have a right to attack anyone who in its opinion
is assisting the other side, including the US, the source
of just about everything it has.
By the same token, Muslims must then have the right to attack
the US if they believe the US is aiding Israel.
So I guess we'll have to take Osama bin Ladin off the FBI's 10
Most Wanted List.

From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
151 06/09/1999 00:32:24 PDT

To: Magician
Maybe you would be happy.But the French might have retaliated against your country as America should have.DeGaulle was in power then.The Israeli lobby has never been as influential there.
Don't get upset with "fritz". Just wish him well in France. He seems to like the place better than over here already, judging by his glowing admiration for them. Perhaps he'll follow his heart and leave soon. Au revoir, fritz.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
152 06/09/1999 00:37:06 PDT

To: agaviator
You said it just right. In a shooting war you take out your "friend" if he is reading your order of battle to the enemy.
It's not justification, it's what happened.

From: Magician
153 06/09/1999 00:50:37 PDT

To: Magician

There's only one problem. It didn't happen.
As was said earlier, it's preposterous to assume that the US
was passing intelligence, directly or indirectly, to a Soviet
client state at the height of the Cold War.
This is nothing more than a smear on the members of the US,
Navy, particluarly those who were murdered, by a country which
repeatedly demonstrates it thinks it's a law unto itself.

From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
154 06/09/1999 00:58:21 PDT

To: agaviator

It did happen.
I know. You don't.
Good night all.

From: Magician
155 06/09/1999 01:21:19 PDT

To: Magician

"How many people participating in this thread do think have ENLISTED in the service during a shooting war?"
Aye.
Your information is pretty close to what I've heard, although I did hear that LBJ deliberately sold them out.

From: dsc
156 06/09/1999 02:24:01 PDT

To: CTRC

i think the US should drop all aid to israel - both monetary and logistical - they are the problem in the middle east - and will get the US into serious trouble if we dont drop them and let them settle their own problems with the arabs - and if they cant - good bye and good riddance - just a bunch of trouble makers - and anyway the arabs are going to nuke the place or put the biologicals on them - so we might as well get out of the way and just watch the destruction over the satellites

From: deepsixx
157 06/09/1999 03:35:22 PDT

To: Shropster

Thank you.
I bear no case for Isreal.
I do have respect for law, including international law.
If Isreal attacked a ship that was going about its business in a neutral fashion, it committed an offence. If it attacked lifeboats, even empty ones, it committed an offence and cannot plead operational necessity.
If, on the other hand, it had credible evidence that a ship in theatre was acting in a manner threatening to its forces, it can plead operational necessity if it attacks said ship, even if later events show that it was mistaken.
Note that the US did not formally complain and, indeed, participated in a cover-up.
All forces, including Canadian, British and United States forces, have behaved in such a manner.

From: Clive (chdove@home.com)
158 06/09/1999 03:42:58 PDT

To: NetValue
Sorry, net value. I was processing Magician's info. I come to the FR to be informed. I don't pretend to be an expert. I am not a spy, a disruptor,etc. Think of me as a brain in formalin solution attached by electrodes to my computer. So many times, people on these threads attach a cachet to themselves which is totally spurious.
Take Magician..He/she has been ascribed to be a Mossad spy and is taken seriously by Israel apologists. Probably a little whitehaired grandma making all of this stuff up.
From where I sit, Magician, Uriel...this does not compute.
From: rubbertramp
159 06/09/1999 04:39:05 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
Maybe I'm a Mossad spy....booga booga.
From: rubbertramp
160 06/09/1999 04:51:57 PDT

To: Common Cents
I think it is proven that Israel was responsible for this tragedy. These people were martyred ...just sitting ducks for LBJ's and Israel's agenda? Where have I seen that modus operandi before?
God bless those men and God bless the USA.
From: rubbertramp
161 06/09/1999 05:07:15 PDT

To: Magician

It didn't happen.
Two Navy vets who know way more than you about this ship and this
incident have been trying to get through to you without success.
This post is cunning pro-Israeli propoganda which smears
the
US military, especially the 34 who died, and says that unless
the US has a policy indistinguishable from Israel's, there's a
chance its service people will be on the wrong side of any mission.
As such your message isn't suitable for Americans.
But tell the formum this:
IF the US can send sailors to their deaths aiding the communists
during the height of the Cold War, while they were the greatest
threat posed to us, then what Master Conspiracy Theory maintains
that both capitalism and communism are run by the Zionists?
So are you cleverly putting forth Israeli propoganda, or are you
even more cleverly trying to advance neo-Nazism?

From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
162 06/09/1999 05:38:04 PDT

To: Magician
Call Jim up and ask him- he lives in Virginia.
From: Jay Ely (elyjf@nu.com)
163 06/09/1999 05:40:43 PDT

To: Citizen Tom Paine
If one nation takes acts which can affect the outcome of hostilities, then the offended nation, or the nation perceived to be offended, has every right to attempt to stop those acts.
This talk about international waters is ridiculous. Warfare, by its very nature is, per von Clausewitz, "diplomacy by other means." ALL laws go down the drain, permitting men to murder men (and women and children), without fear of penalty... as long as the victims are the enemy.
From: HurryingHoofbeats
164 06/09/1999 05:54:38 PDT

To: Joe Montana
Joe- I believe either Illinois or Indiana has a state holiday honoring Milhalovitch, not everybody forgot.
From: Jay Ely (elyjf@nu.com)
165 06/09/1999 05:56:35 PDT

To: Magician
Magician- We know they knew who the ship was, our embassy in Beruit intercepted the pilots radio communications identifiying it as the Liberty. That information was released several years ago.
From: Jay Ely (elyjf@nu.com)
166 06/09/1999 06:06:13 PDT

To: Common Cents
In the book, "The Rape of Nanking(sp?)", Japanese Zeros sunk a U.S. Navy riverboat. 1937, maybe? There were fighter radio intercepts of the pilots asking if this was the right boat. Around 1939, a U.S. Navy distroyer was sunk by a german U-boat in the North Alantic. I belive It was the Sullivan(?). What was the name of the U.S. Nave Spy ship captured by the North Koreans? Then there is the Golf of Tonkin, with the Maddox(?) It seems that the U.S. government likes to use the lives of americans in the navy as bait for war. Kind of like Hitler's Riechstag fire. Anyways, my kin have fought since the revolution( picked the losers, had to go to Nova Soctia for awhile.), but no more. I do not trust or believe any of these finger snapping Yale/Harvard types, of either party.
From: Leisler
167 06/09/1999 10:01:57 PDT

To: Leisler,agaviator,dse,rubbertramp,JayEly
(Liesler)You're sort of right, but the crew of the Liberty was not bait. They were on SPY SHIP, and both our ours, the Liberty and the Pueblo suffered similar fates because of the reactions of the parties they were spying on. If you spy, the guys you're spying on are going to try to terminate your activities, particularly if you are sending battlefield information to their enemy.
(agaviator)Sorry, I can't follow your logic or your terminology.
(dse)You've heard the same things I've heard.
(rubbertramp)You're closer than you think at getting to getting at the truth. You just can't wrap you mind around the concept that in time of a shooting war, a country has a right to teminate the activities of a ship 12-13 miles off their coast supplying their order of battle to their enemy.
(JayEly)Your right. Almost everyone now knows that the attack was deliberate and that the initial cover story of a "mistake" was nonsense. What has not been known is WHY the Israelis attacked the ship, which involved a lot of military and diplomatic risk on their part at a crucial time.

From: Magician
168 06/09/1999 11:15:55 PDT

To: All

Think about why the Israelis would take the risk of getting into a battle with two U.S. carrier groups and forever alienating their strongest alliy. What could have been so important about what the Liberty was doing that they would have attacked it and delayed their attack on the Golan hieghts for 24 hours until the ship was put out of commission?
No Zionist, Jews control the world bull s--t, please.

From: Magician
169 06/09/1999 11:32:32 PDT

To: Uriel1975
What are you talking about?What's Bilderberg?Please make your reply sensible.Don't lay your BS on me.Maybe,in asking sense from you,I ask that which is beyond your capacity,am I right?
From: fritz kuhn
170 06/09/1999 12:16:30 PDT

To: Magician
The point was not whether Javits knew what happened but that he acted as a spokesman for a foreign government which had attacked a U.S. flagship.No one who is objective could have failed to draw that logical inference from my reply.
From: fritz kuhn
171 06/09/1999 12:24:42 PDT

To: Common Cents
The National Crytologic Museum at NSA HQ located at Ft Meade has several USS Liberty items on display. One is the huge US flag flown from the mast that day. No doubt about it, that flag had to be visible.
From the tone of the exhibit, I don't think the NSA people buy the "accident" scenario.
From: Doctor Raoul (doctordeming@hotmail.com)
172 06/09/1999 12:33:06 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Don't worry putz.I am not going to France.It is very cute to twist it around that I love France more,this coming from Americans who are defending a foreign regime that deliberately attacked a U.S. flagship.I must say your parents got their money's worth at the summer socialist camps you attended.I have no particular admiration for France,but De Gaulle oui!At times he was aggravating to Americans because he never forgot which country had his allegiance.Unlike some Americans who seek to justify murder of American sailors by a "friendly" country.
From: fritz kuhn
173 06/09/1999 12:38:28 PDT

To: rubbertramp
"Maybe I'm a Mossad spy..booga,booga".How the hell would I know?From reviewing your replies I'm not sure you'd pass the IQ tests.I don't like Mossad but I don't think they're stupid.
From: fritz kuhn
174 06/09/1999 12:45:40 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
The demonization of the "Israeli lobby" tends to be part of the "Big Jew Conspiracy" silliness that maintains that the Bilderberg group (a bunch of CFR types) controls the world, the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are real, etc.
Israel has a lobby, and has supporters in Congress, like virtually every nation with an interest in US trade and military cooperation. But Israel is certainly no worse than any and is better than most. They have allowed the Sixth Fleet to use Haifa and Ashdod as ports-of-call for years, have allowed Sixth Fleet pilots to use the Negev desert for land-attack training, and been a consistent ally of the US when we've seen fit to muddle about in the MidEast. Shooting up our ships just isn't their usual modus operandi.
Which, therefore, begs for the question that Magician is asking: what was the Liberty doing 13-14 miles off the Israeli-Egyptian coast when the Israelis had been assured there would not be US ships within 100 miles? Why was she there, off the Sinai, instead of closer to Alexandria and Cairo - given that she was supposed to be monitoring Egyptian TU-95 bombers, when there practically wasn't any Egyptian air force left in or near the Sinai after June 5? Was there, as Magician maintains, espionage of the Israeli order of battle being conducted that was being passed to the Egyptians? When Israel undertook an action that was completely out of her usual (friendly) character towards the US and the Sixth Fleet, Magician's statements bear consideration.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
175 06/09/1999 12:50:58 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
a foreign regime that attacked a US flagship...etc.
Okay, now you are getting nutty. Since when was the Liberty the Flagship of the Sixth Fleet? Perhaps you meant "US-flagged-ship"; The Liberty was an intel barge, not a "Flagship"!
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
176 06/09/1999 12:54:36 PDT

To: Magician
You just can't wrap you mind around the concept that in time of a shooting war, a country has a right to teminate the activities of a ship 12-13 miles off their coast supplying their order of battle to their enemy.
What I can't wrap my mind around is Johnson's being allies with Egypt....that is farfetched.
From: rubbertramp
177 06/09/1999 13:54:08 PDT

To: Common Cents
Anyway its time for U. S.PATRIOTS to stand up and be counted and get all the papers released and any guilty criminals punished.
I was informed of this Thread while I was engaged in my other work and dropped that for this. I have not read any further than the first introductory by Mr. Cents, which sums up the historical reality quite concisely. This will not, God willing, be my last entry here.
I know of no other subject than the USS Liberty, and the consequent history surrounding the efforts of the victims of this aggression to obtain the least semblance of justice against their suffering, that is more vital to the understanding of the American people of their politics and directions of this nation. Without knowledge of the inner workings of our institutions and the influences brought to bear upon them through incisive political understanding and concerted organization and direction, there is no hope of recovery of our cherished freedoms which have been systematically eroded through Supreme Court interprettion until they scarcely exist.
The USS Liberty history is incisive and illustrative of the malady that afflicts America. Those who bear witness to this travesty and continue to suffer its injustice and dimunition are not men of bigotry and hatred, prejudice or disloyalty or self-aggrandizement. I cannot begin to emphasize sufficiently that this is of vital importance to all who love freedom and wish to see a restoration of this great nation to its proper place under God.
Furthermore I warn: Should this thread "disappear" from Free Republic, the name should be regarded thereafter as meaningless: Freedom implies a witness to the truth, no matter how harsh it may be; and susceptibility to foreign and deleterious influence, whether from Americans with dual allegiances or from anywhere else, is not a characteristic of a republic. With all candor, I do not expect this to occur, that it should vanish: I think that Jim Robinson has repeatedly shown his mettle in his singular and nearly unique respect and defense of free speech. I pray that he will be able to stand up to the massive forces that have been arrayed for decades to conceal from the American people any knowledge of the USS Liberty. They are afoot as I write, and their influence on the lives of all Americans is as immense as it is invisible.
God be with all of us as we unearth this massive injustice.
REMEMBER THE LIBERTY!!

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
178 06/09/1999 13:57:40 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
Sticks and stones.
From: rubbertramp
179 06/09/1999 13:58:33 PDT

To: ankaboot
A lot of discussion of the attack on The Liberty has been on why it was done. At this stage I really don't care. What we need to discuss is what should we do now? We all know the Attack was a deliberate act and should have been treated in that way. Remember the "MAINE" Remember "Pearl Harbor" What happened when we had a government that looked out for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the same thing should have happened from the attack on the USS Liberty. All our military might should have been used to correct the situation. All countries friend or foe would understand that we will stand up for the United States of America. It wasn't, therefore we have traitors in this country both dead and alive and and War Criminals in a foreign country that we as US Taxpayers support thru our Corrupt Government and have given this Country over $200 Billion in so called aid, the bulk of it since the USS Liberty was attacked. I see this rotten Mc Nammera on TV all the time but he is never asked why he betrayed US Servicemen on the USS Liberty. (maybe he was too busy betraying Servicemen in Vietnam) but if I was "in charge" he would be up for treason tomorrow with others to follow! I would give Israel 24 hours to turn over all the documents, send all the people connected with this incident over for trial and recall all their spies. I would not allow dual citizenship and give everyone who has it 24 hours to leave the country or swear allegence (and mean it ) to the United States of America. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Remember the Liberty.
From: Common Cents
180 06/09/1999 14:29:24 PDT

To: rubbertramp
I first heard about this on the show Unsolved Mysteries.
There is no "unsolved mystery" here.
I would like to know more about this, so thanks for the post. I remember that Johnson excused the incident by saying that he would not act against "our allies",meaning Israel when the men requested help. With allies like that ...we don't need enemies.
With enemies like this we don't have any friends.
Rabin was in Dallas on Nov.22,1963, so maybe he was Johnson's ally.
Who do you think owns Clinton? The Arkansas mafia? That was when he was Governor. He has new masters today, remember that Bush was the frontrunner until he asked to delay the consideration of the Loan Guarantees, and then the media turned on him and he couldn't do anything right. That's how we got Clinton in the first place -- Bush was unbeatable. Then he opposed the Lobby in something. Presto! Here comes a third-rate slickster from the Arkansas mafia: do you think that a bunch of dope-runners salting away minor real estate could have engineered that?
But please -- don't start a sub-discussion on the fact that the only organized group with capability to suppress news with impunity and keep secrets for thirty-odd years that has NEVER been mentioned as possibly complicit in the Kennedy assassination is the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence branch, under Golda Meir just after Kennedy had denied a request for offensive weaponry and toppled Ben Gurion from power over Dimona. Perhaps Johnson was something less than a willing ally. But this Thread is about the USS LIBERTY, and their day in court. Let's get them one without distractions from other things that may eventually come to light.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
181 06/09/1999 14:47:04 PDT

To: Magician
Draw your own conclusions.
The conclusion that I draw is that this is magic.
The translators on the USS LIBERTY have long been known to be Russian, and their mission to track the radio transmission of Soviet pilots in Egyptian migs. There has never been any suggestion that the United States, under loyal ally Johnson, was anything other than supportive of Israel strategic and tactical maneuver during the 1967 war.
The conclusion that I draw is that this scenario, which contains great plausilibity except for the absence of Hebrew translators and the absence of Johnson's inclination to be of any assistance whatever against Israel, has been on the shelf as a contingency plan for just this kind of public discussion of the USS LIBERTY history.
Just like Bush could do no wrong, and then in the space of three days he could do no right.
These people are slick, Folks, they have all the answers prepared well in advance and have no hesitation whatsoever about spending as many of their number as needed to foster an illusion, future credibility be damned, they will throw their names and their reputations on the line without any hesitation to keep the American people deluded. Do not be misled by anything you read, check out the known facts from known sources and do not believe the first word until you have proven it, on either side. That is the safest course, and you will see who are the liars.
Don't accept any false messiahs from these people either, they didn't like the one God sent and they have their own all prepared and ready to foist on you.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
182 06/09/1999 14:58:30 PDT

To: Jim B.
The Israelis claimed they thought the Liberty was an Egyptian destoyer. What a hoot! The Liberty looked like a cargo ship with a lot of antennaes all over it -- which is what it was -- a spy ship like the Pueblo. that fat cow lloks nothing like the sleak lines of a destroyer.
The Israelis claimed that they thought the Liberty was an Egyptian freighter twice the size of the USS LIBERTY.
Don't get bogged down in all of the details, there are too many. Focus on the RESULT -- Johnson recalled the flight, the disinformation mechanisms kicked in, and the incident was buried for the next thirty years and never made it to a discussion in Congress, unlike any other maritime event of similar nature. Massive energy and money have been devoted to this, and the limited circle of those in the know has been silent for all this time. The effect is that these "American" leaders lied and continue to lie to the people concerning our "ally." It has been effective to illustrate to those leaders the hidden power of those who keep the lid on it. And it reminded Johnson of just how he became President.
It was neither accidental nor indeliberate, it was calculated and purposeful and it served its purpose. Stick to the main event, which is the effect on the political institutions under which we live. Let's see who really controls what.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
183 06/09/1999 15:11:26 PDT

To: Magician
Everyone has been lying about this incident since it occurred.
That's a bald-faced lie. But it tells me who you are, and you must admit that the word you used is everybody, which at the first instance includes you.
Thank you for identifying yourself. Should I be mistaken when the dust settles, you will have my abject apology. But it is obvious within five posts from the top of the Thread that the Lobby has brought its experts into play with canned and ready contngency plans on this one, and you are the person who has asserted that those who know and tell the truth in this are to be disregarded. God knows the men on the ship and God knows those who seek to kill them all over again in their hope of making known the truth of the matter. You are of the latter.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
184 06/09/1999 15:18:25 PDT

To: Joe Montana
"The life rafts were machine-gunned."
There were no life rafts involved.
YOU ARE MAKING UP HORSESH*T.
That's garbage. The boats were ordered into the water in case an abandon ship order would follow. They were hit with machinegun fire from the torpedo boats which did not have elint detection gear and had to wait for another overflight.
So we know who you are, too. Thanks.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
185 06/09/1999 15:24:24 PDT

To: ankaboot
Ankaboot, Seems like you are awfully selective in what you choose to discuss or not discuss. You go on about Clinton/ Bush and whose master is whose and then you assail me because I notice a pattern of action that is also related
I will humor you and focus only on the Liberty. It was sunk. The Israelis sunk it. Was there a lot of spy stuff going on? Probably. Were the crew set up by Johnson and his masters? Definitely. I do believe that there was not expected to be any survivors. If there were no survivors, the spin would have been that the Egyptians did it.
This thread is a lot like the event...no one seems to know who is an ally. I am not for the Arabs or the Israelis...just the truth.
From: rubbertramp
186 06/09/1999 15:32:35 PDT

To: ankaboot
With regard to your post 181, so damn right and nothing will be done about it.
From: King of Ithaca
187 06/09/1999 15:34:06 PDT

To: rubbertramp
This thread is a lot like the event...no one seems to know who is an ally. I am not for the Arabs or the Israelis...just the truth.
The battle here is between the people of the United States and the traitors and treason of Israel against them, it has nothing to do with the Arabs whatever. Decide whether you are a patriot of the American Republic or a lackey. And then you may be able to discern the truth.
I am not an Arab. I am an American. I served my country in Korea during the initial stages of Vietnam when one tenth of the Korean troop strength was sent under secret orders to Scofield Barracks in Hawaii and then to Vietnam, in 1961 and 1962 when the leaders in Washington were systematically lying to the American people. This Thread is about who and why there are liars in our public offices, schools, and all media outlets. The Arabs are all but kaput, the muslim world in that area of the world has been kaput for generations. My religion has everything to do with this: It is not in any sense or reason an Arab thing at all, they are totally irrelevant to my religion, to my country, and to my people, who are Americans who believe in God irrespective of what House they attend.
Who are yours?

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
188 06/09/1999 15:47:56 PDT

To: King of Ithaca
With regard to your post 181, so damn right and nothing will be done about it.
With all due respect, your majesty, b*lls.
This is the place to do it. Those who start out with the attitude that the opponent can only win have lost before they start. There is no power on earth that can stand up against God unless He allows it, and those who fight on the side of truth and justice are with Him.
Get down off your throne and see what this is. This issue can turn the country around. You are the people to do it. How can you think that God will not support your efforts and bring you victory against immorality and deceit?
That is a sure road to failure and slavery. Come off of it, I beg you -- you have as much to offer as anyone else, myself included. Our people suffer tyranny and oppression they do not even imagine, and children are murdered as they attend school. How can you sit and watch?

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
189 06/09/1999 15:57:24 PDT

To: ankaboot
Who are yours?
I know you are emotional. I am not being a wisea$$. I don't understand your question.
From: rubbertramp
190 06/09/1999 16:06:01 PDT

To: Gandalf_The_Gray
The state of Isreal is like most other countries. They are our "friend" when it is in their national interests to be "friends", and are not our friends at other times. They put the national interests of Israel first. This is something the US should start doing too!
From: sneakypete
191 06/09/1999 16:15:54 PDT

To: Uriel1975
What I meant is that it flew U.S.flag.Don't get cute.
From: fritz kuhn
192 06/09/1999 16:58:37 PDT

To: Uriel1975
There you go again as Reagan said.Like a well trained seal you bring up "Bilderberg" without any provocation from me to see if you can tar me.You can check all the silly threads about "Bilderberg" and you will not find me participating.This loathsome diversionary tactic is silly and tired.So what do you do?You reply by explaining further about Bilderberg.
As for Israel being like any other "friendly" country,you must be kidding.The pro-Israeli lobby has repeated without any substantiation,on behalf of Pollard,that all allies spy on us.However I challenge you to name one case where the U.K,France,Germany,etc turned an American into a spy against the U.S..Why should'nt they be "friendly" after all they leech off the American taxpayers.
From: fritz kuhn
193 06/09/1999 17:16:57 PDT

To: fritz kuhn
Hi Uriel, you must have the duty for the Israeli apologists or was it the Israeli lobby. Either way, Israel smoked a US Navy vessel in international waters. Genuine americans that you probably consider criminals for doing their jobs were murdered. Back in 1987 the Iraqi's did the same thing, we immediately decided that this was a mistake. Needless to say we are still paying for that mistake. We also ascribed the Israeli mistake to the fog of war syndrome. How many Iraqui spys are currently in US custody? (try zero). We lost more people to combat during the Liberty incident (I hate that word) than we did in the entire air war against Iraq. The US position on Israel is paid for with dollars, not the jewish blood you you would attribute it too. The US has already expended too much blood to ensure the survival of your lobby in this country. Please note that given a choice few would move to your solid rock and sand utopia.
From: bwana
194 06/09/1999 17:20:10 PDT

To: rubbertramp
I know you are emotional. I am not being a wisea$$. I don't understand your question.
"Who are yours?"?
I assume as a matter of good manners that those who come to this forum are my people: Americans who love God however they conceive of Him. I know that there are those Americans who are other than that, and for them I bear no ill will or disregard, He does not allow me that and I do not seek it anyway. Please forgive me should my query offend you.
The reason I posed it is that in your first post to which I responded, you appeared to be uncertain as between opposed camps, perhaps not knowing them opposed as I see it. Your reference to two "sides" as Jews and Arabs raises more of question in my mind than of answer, because the Arabs have so little to do with the Liberty issue -- what do they care about one of our boats, their concern is the tear gas and rubber-coated steel bullets we ship to their daily oppressors, in their view, although I believe there is always an argument that the oppressor of an oppressed people is that people.
Thus my question I believe was intended to stimulate your sense of identity, I know who you are, it appeared to me that like many Americans, judgment in obscure matters has a tendency to escape one because there are so many trees in the forest and it is difficult to go through uprooting each one to obtain a clear view.
There is no unclarity in the Liberty story, else it would not be so singularly buried from public notice. Were the facts on the side of the Israelis, they would have long since been brought to light, to foster sympathy if nothing else, for the things that continue to be said of them concerning it.
So please -- disregard my passion, it merely makes me of use in a situation like this by motivating me to strenuously advocate the right. I even err -- such as in my choice of words to you. But I think we serve the same objective here, which is to unearth and disclose the reality concealed from interested eyes by interested deceivers. And it's not the Arabs, who have known all along what goes on in America and have not the wherewithal to care.
It's us. It's our blood and our children who will carry our hearts into the future.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
195 06/09/1999 17:21:01 PDT

To: Clive
The US and its allies did go along and even may have instigated the cover-up.
Such is the power of the Isreali lobby.
We are no longer one nation under God - we are one nation under Isreal.
From: Shropster (shrop@cyberhighway.net)
196 06/09/1999 17:23:03 PDT

To: Tazzo
Sounds like the Israelis are guilty of war crmes. Why no international tribunal to investigate?
Because there is no legitimate sovereignty to be accorded anything other than expeditious notice than those to whom God Himself gave sovereignty. It is not possible that any other nation be anything but illegitimate and a mere pawn when it is allowed to serve the Chosen. This has been the attitude of Israel toward the United States from the first arrival of the first military attache posted there, and the history of it is sterling clear.
Israel has no allies. Israel is surrounded by the nations who, according to timeless belief, will attack and from envy when no other pretext suffices. This is commonly known to all the houses of Christianity, but it is most assiduously known in Israel because it is strategic and tactical and not merely an "event" leading to a second coming in which they do not believe. People imagine there to be more of secularism in Israel than belief, while the prescript for the other children of Noah is a covenant of subservience to the Children of Israel that is, for the Noahide, devoid of any religious content that was given to the Children of Israel as their national inheritance not to be shared with the profane among the nations. There is no way in Scripture for them to avoid this view of creation.
Thus what we see of them is the secular given for us, not the religious given for them alone. Read your Bible, it's all there. What they deny is Jesus and his message, and the ramification of that, also in the Bible. What they do here is keep us from the clarity that is the Liberty concerning this very disregard of others' rights: others have no rights.
And that is why no international tribunal may be convened: America's veto power in the United Nations, and Israel's clout among the leaders of the nations, prevent that. Here we have an opportunity to illuminate the matter and you see them bringing long-dormant forces into play, right in this Thread. It will not be different, they have had 3000 years to prepare for any eventuality, and preserve knowledge that we have never even imagined.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
197 06/09/1999 17:50:13 PDT

To: ankaboot

Russian translators? Why would the Liberty arrive off the shore of Gaza with Russian translators on June 8 to intercept Egyptian/Soviet pilot communications. The entire Egyptian Air Force had been destroyed days earlier. No Mig ever got anywhere near Gaza during the war. The only military activity to be monitored in that location at that time was Israeli.
When the Israeli army's order of battle information started coming into the Egyptian high command from the British station on Cyprus, and when they themselves had monitored the Liberty's transmissions, they knew that Liberty was the source of the information.
At that point the Liberty had become a belligerent on the side of the enemy.

From: Magician
198 06/09/1999 20:41:25 PDT

To: Ankaboot
The Noahide Laws are simply the laws required of non-Jews living in Ancient Isreal. If my memory serves me correctly:
1. Thou shalt not commit blasphemy against the Lord.
2. Thou shalt not kill.
3. Thou shalt not steal.
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
5. Thou shalt not eat flesh cut from a living animal.
There were a couple more tha I can't remember at this time. Basically they were the same as the ten commandments minus the those requiring Jews to worship the Lord.

From: Magician
199 06/09/1999 20:53:38 PDT

To: rubbertramp
Johnson was giving the Egyptians a consolation prize after they were so badly defeated. The pressure to do this came from the Gulf Arabs via friends of Johnson's in the Aramco..

From: Magician
200 06/09/1999 21:07:16 PDT

To: psbowen
Magician, if I may, a reality check. It is absolutely illegal under international law to shoot at a neutral ship in international waters. It is an act of war. It does not matter what the ship is doing. If it is not a combatant engaged in the conflict, you CAN NOT shoot it. Period. It does not matter if the people on the bridge of the Liberty were talking to directly to the Egyptians or not. It is illegal and an act of war to shoot at them.
Indeed you have spoken the truth.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
201 06/09/1999 21:42:29 PDT

To: psbowen
This is an ENORMOUS stretch of the imagination. This requires us to turn our understanding of mid-east history and politics upside down to create a very feeble justification for an Israeli attack on the Liberty.
Please note that it would also require a Johnathon Pollard aboard the USS Liberty in the enlint compartment.
Not inconceiveable but really a stretch. But we are asked to strain at gnats and swallow camels with the Israelis all the time -- you can do it if you try, and somehow it always makes us the bad guys, the fools, and the idiots.
Hmmm.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
202 06/09/1999 23:49:34 PDT

To: Heavy
bump!
From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
203 06/10/1999 01:53:43 PDT

To: spook
So I suggest you regroup and redesign your smoke screen magic on the issue.
It's been field tested, after being prepared all these years, right here in this Thread. You can bet there are three more levels already set to go with a different twist. Just like patsy Oswald had the fallback of his Louisiana connections, which in turn fell back to Oliver Stone's set-piece bull. Who can keep the lid on something for thirty-five years in the American media? The National Library Association?

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
204 06/10/1999 02:01:33 PDT

To: spook
You over look the Sinai Desert campaign that started about that time. Stop smoking what ever you are as it is clouding your biased and illogical presentation.
Are you possibly referring to an American photoreconnaissance squadron flying missions over the Sinai and delivering copies of the aerials to the Israeli liaison "host" repreentative, that enabled Israeli forces to observe Egyptian troop movements? Were those emissions being recorded on the Liberty?
How about the sub that filmed the Israeli attack on the Liberty through its periscope? Is that public?

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
205 06/10/1999 02:24:09 PDT

To: Magician
I know thousands of Jews, and I've never heard one mention being approached to gather intelligence for Israel.
Oh. Well.
Gee, Magician, I didn't know. Surely, if they were being asked to gather intelligence for the Israelis ...
Well it goes without saying that they'd tell you about it, first thing.
After all, you can't keep your people in the dark all the time, now can you?

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
206 06/10/1999 02:45:04 PDT

To: ankaboot
How about the sub that filmed the Israeli attack on the Liberty through its periscope? Is that public?
Tell me more. I read Blind Man's Bluff. My first thought was why didn't Johnson (if he were being on the level about this ) send a sub for this spook operation?
From: rubbertramp
207 06/10/1999 04:13:48 PDT

To: Magician
Ask the thousands of Jews you know this simple question: If the U.S. went to war against Israel, which side would they support?
If they are honest with you, they will tell you that, as far as American Jews are concerned, the "White and Blue" flies above the "Red White and Blue".
From: Tazzo
208 06/10/1999 06:30:10 PDT

To: Magician

(1) Intelligence is compartmentalized, with only a very few
at the top knowing the "big picture." It's preposterous that
you can accurately state there was a high-ranking double agent
in the Egyptian command. Even in the highly unlikely event that
some one who really knows told you this, you have no way to prove
he isn't lying.
(2) The underlying agit-prop message is clear: Any time the US even has
an appearance of doing something not approved of by Israel, the
Israelis are perfecty justified in murdering any Americans for
any excuse they wish to give.
(3) At the same time, your side expects us to view anyone opposed
to Israel who attacks Americans because of US support for Israel
as a criminal. The classic double standard. Israelis who
murder Americans are doing their duty, Arabs or Muslims who
murder Americans are terrorists.
(4) If in fact the US was giving information to a Soviet client
state at the height of the Cold War, then you, an apparent
Israeli advocate, are verifying what the neo-Nazis have been saying
all along, that both capitalism and communism are both controlled
by a Zionist conspiracy.
Whose side are you really working for?

From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
209 06/10/1999 23:06:53 PDT

To: Magician
Nonsense. Jews are just as loyal or disloyal as any other group.
Loyal to Israel, that is. Since no others than the Chosen People have been commissioned to rule humanity, according to the Torah and Psalms and the prophets, there is no other nation to be loyal or disloyal to.
Personally, I have been around for a lifetime and have never known anyone who was approached by the Mossad. It is a very small organization and it mainly concentrates on intelligence matters involving the Middle East.
Intelligence matters involving the Middle East like Pollard found? Or intelligence about who is running for Congress and whether they have ever spoken a word against Israeli apartheid or socialism or State-sponsored terrorism and genocide? Who gets to pass to Israel $6.4 billion a year from US taxpayer dollars -- is that "intelligence matters involving the Middle East"?
My daughter has been around for a lifetime, too -- she's almost six, and she says no one has approached her to spy for Israel, but her teachers have taught her that there is one legitimate religion that was attacked by Hitler during World War II, and other religions cannot be legitimate as far as American public education is concerned, for example her own religion, Islam.
But you -- are you a Jew? If so, why would anyone believe you about this? And if not, then why would any Jew tell you about this?
You seem to have a slight credibility problem when involved in this subject. Do you know where your eternal capital is? "No" is an answer, Magicman.
[Note how I changed the "I" (for Israel) to an "m" (for myopic) in your handle? Does that give you an identity crisis?]

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
210 06/13/1999 03:56:31 PDT

To: ankaboot
"Gee, Magician, I didn't know. Surely, if they were being asked
to gather intelligence for the Israelis ...
Well it goes without saying that they'd tell you about it, first thing."
Maybe working for the Mossad is sort of like being in the Turtles Club:
QUESTION: Are you giving American secrets to the Israeli government????
ANSWER: You bet your sweet ass I am!!!
Then you have to buy him a drink.

From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
211 06/13/1999 04:12:39 PDT

To: agaviator
Maybe working for the Mossad is sort of like being in the Turtles Club:
QUESTION: Are you giving American secrets to the Israeli government????
ANSWER: You bet your sweet ass I am!!!
Then you have to buy him a drink.
I can never remember the questions. But I don't drink, so it doesn't matter. I'm sure I'm a turtle, but the chain stops with me, I can't remember what to ask. "Are you giving American secrets to the Israeli government" would make a bigger bunch of bottom-feeding hard cases, though.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
212 06/15/1999 23:56:08 PDT

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