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Topic: Palestine

Palestinians in Israel Endure Much

New Haven Register
May 16, 1999 Bob Cork

My wife and I recently visited the land where Jesus walked, and we discovered that bitter zoning disputes in our home town of Orange are petty squabbles when compared to Israeli settlements on the West Bank and the struggle of Palestinians for civil rights and self-determination.

The final solution for governing Palestinian territories has not been decided, but Jewish settlements are sprouting like dandelions on golf course greens. The settlements are stark white structures with red roofs, perched on hills like cheap condos modeled after “Monopoly” houses.

“Access” roads connecting them are really “bypass” roads isolating Palestinian population centers like reservations for native Americans, stifling the West Bank communities economically, culturally, and psychologically. Israelis claim the roads provide necessary security.

Recently the daily Maariv reported Israel plans to convert the West Bank settlement of Afrin into a city with 8,000 units. Afrin becomes the third settlement to be declared a city, after Ariel and Ma”ale Adumin. Housing Ministry Director Ahron Dom said the new campaign will bring thousands more Jewish immigrants to the West Bank.

Many Israeli Jews are willing to live in settlements because they believe it will further the national cause, while others make the move for tax breaks and other economic incentives offered to them by the Israeli government. But the undeniable purpose of settlements, through Labor and Likud government, has been to preclude the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state.

American officials have objected to settlement expansion, but Prime Minister Netanyahu doesn’t listen. He wants votes from the right wing in Monday’s elections. He ignores the principles of Oslo and Wye agreements and says the specifics do not exclude settlements.

Netanyahu listens to Americans only when it benefits him politically, and others laugh at us in broad daylight. Israelis sell tee-shirts that say “Don’t Worry, America, Israel is Behind You.”

The truth is Israel cares more about new immigrants than providing essentials for indigenous Palestinians. Settlers are given enough water for lawns. Water for Palestinians is rationed and sometimes shut off.

If Netanyahu really cared about immigrant comfort, there would be settlements on green slopes rising from fertile fields of the Mediterranean shoreline south of Haifa, or around the Sea of Galilee. Israel’s population density is similar to Connecticut, so expansion is not a problem.

Unless, of course, you are Palestinian and have lived your whole life in East Jerusalem. We met a merchant who was told, after building a new house, that his permit was invalid and he could not get a new one. We saw pictures of bulldozers demolishing his home.

House demolitions in Jerusalem, along with settlement construction and ID card confiscation, are part of an Israeli strategy to limit the growtn of Arab East Jerusalem, and sever it from the West Bank.

Even in refugee camps, when families grow, construction is allowed only by adding one room above another. Expansion, like freedom, is okay for everybody but Palestinians, who Israelis apparently still hope will magically dissolve into neighboring countries.

We visited Palestinian villages that blend into hills, where people grow olives and grapes, where sheep and goats graze on terraced slopes, where people hunger for education even when it may not help them.

We were graciously invited into homes for dinner. We met students from the Gaza Strip who are denied safe passage to college. We met professional Palestinians who must ask for permission to visit Jerusalem.

We stayed two nights in a refugee camp and met men who were teen-agers in 1948 and are still refugees.

Other refugees had jobs in factories until Jewish immigrants replaced them.

Ironically, some refugees work on construction of settlements. Its like being paid to dig your own grave. When options for food are scarce, you pick up a shovel.

Every Palestinian we met had another question we couldn’t answer. Why is Kosovo more important to America than Palestine was in 1948?

On access road 443 to Tel A’viv, just before the Modi’in settlement, we saw a cactus fence that once kept livestock away from crops in a Palestinian village. We wondered how different this land would be today if CNN had been there to film Israeli tanks and bulldozers in action. # # # # #


Charley Reese is not the only columnist in America who knows the truth about Israel. Here's one by Bob Cork from the New Haven Register, who gave me permission to post this column.


Posted by:
Frenchie
1 05/23/1999 09:09:58 PDT

To: Frenchie
Bump....
From: astonished
2 05/23/1999 09:16:13 PDT

To: ALL - Read of the AWFUL oppression carried out by mean ole' Israel!!!
The settlements are staek white structures with red roofs, perched on hills like cheap condos modelled after "Monopoly" houses....etc.

That's right, the Israelis are "oppressing" the Palestinians with their...

poor fashion taste!!! How horrific! How inhumane!

Worst of all, how gauche'!!!

PALESTINIANS IN ISRAEL SUFFER MUCH

Yeah, like having the "political expression" of rocks and pipe bombs met with rubber bullets, whereas peaceful dissidents in countries surrounding Israel are tortured, shot, and even have their entire towns poison gassed.

If the Israelis are trying to oppress anybody they are doing a bloody shabby job of it. They have a lot to learn from the fanatical Arab Dictators committed to their destruction and surrounding them on all sides, who have mastered the art.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
3 05/23/1999 09:26:28 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I have lived in the Middle East and can attest that the Israelis are not the good guys in this long-running confrontation. One of the biggest propaganda efforts in the U.S. is the pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian machine. We pay Israel billions of dollars each year, and manipulated press reports here give us no reason to question that policy. I am amazed at the gullibility even here at FR. If the major media can't be trusted to report other political issues fairly, why on earth do we believe what they say about this one? Flame away; I know whereof I speak.
From: arch1
4 05/23/1999 09:37:40 PDT

To: Frenchie
Bob Cork is a supporter of ethnic cleansing. Why would anybody with even a sliver of decency pay attention to anything that he says?
From: zeppo
5 05/23/1999 09:39:30 PDT

To: Frenchie
You have made it quite obvious that you do not study the Bible. If you did, you would never have the opinion you do. Israel is God's special group of people. God will do whatever it takes to support and defend them. The Muslim people have made their choice. They have chosen to destroy Israel at any cost. They are the kind of fanatics who strap bombs to their children and send them into places to kill people because they believe that if their child dies while killing Jews, the child will go directly to heaven. How sick is that?? Would you strap a bomb to your child to kill your "neighbor". The Muslims have taken a vow to totally destroy the nation of Israel. If I had to live next to that neighbor, I would keep him isolated too. Also, this started when Abraham had Isaac. Abraham had another son (a first born - you have to study history to see how important that position was) named Ismael. Well, Ismael and his mother (a handmaid to Sarah), demanded to have the child's birthright (the first born). The Muslims believe that they have the birthright to the land, not the Jews. If you study the scriptures, you will see that the Muslims are wrong. God gave the land to Israel. If you would study the history of these two people, you would find the truth. Israel has every right to the land and the Muslims do not. So please, do not be deceived - the PLO has long advocated the destruction of Israel. Arafat and his government have said that they have repealed the destruction parts, but I wouldn't take any bets on it. These people live in poverty because they have no covenant with God. The Jews do have a covenant and God prospers them. Get your facts straight before you start dumping on Israel.
From: Sueann (sawooldridge@earthlink.net)
6 05/23/1999 09:41:30 PDT

To: Sueann
In the NT, there is the new covenant. It doesn't advocate what is going on in Israel today.
From: rubbertramp
7 05/23/1999 09:52:02 PDT

To: arch1
The Israelis are not the good guys...etc.

Who cordoned off and poison gassed an entire town of thousands of people - men, women, children, babies - because there were thought to be some political dissidents in the town? You have 3 choices, Middle-East-Man:

1.) Arab Dictator Saddam Hussein
2.) Arab Dictator Hafez Assad
3.) any Israeli leader ever.

Actually, both the first two choices are correct. The mass slaughter of political opponents, and any unfortunates anywhere in the nearby geography, is a fairly commonplace practice among the Arab Dictators surrounding Israel. Its everyday business to them. Israel, on the other hand...

Well, let's just imagine the State of Texas were surrounded and outnumbered on all sides by Mexicans who had started five separate wars with the Texans and were vocally committed to the destruction of texas and the murder of all Texans. Suppose that there was a violent, rebellious group of Mexicans within Texas of which some members murdered Texan women and children on a regular basis, threw rocks and pipe bombs at Texas Police, drove car bombs into Texan schoolyards, etc. etc.... What do you suppose the citizens of Texas would do?

They would liquidate their entire Mexican populace. Immediately. Without remorse or hesitation. And they, as Texans, would survive.

Of Course, Israelis have much more restraint. That is why the State of Israel, the only Free Democracy in the entire Middle east, is in constant danger of destruction.

Build lasting peace in the Middle East. Encourage the annexation of the west Bank by its rightful owner, Israel, and the deployment of Israel's thermonuclear warheads on Israel's Jericho IIB Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and a warning that they are willing to use them.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
8 05/23/1999 09:52:45 PDT


To: zeppo
Racist anti-Semite hatemongers have no sliver of decency.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
9 05/23/1999 09:53:52 PDT

To: rubbertramp
Yup. The surrounding of Israel by militant, radical, murderous Arab Dictatorships committed to the murder of every Jew in Israel goes against every precept of the Bible, New and Old Testaments.

But read the end of the Book. Israel wins, Her enemies are cursed to Death and Hell. They'll get theirs in the end.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
10 05/23/1999 09:56:14 PDT


To: arch1
I am amazed at the gullibility even here at FR.

Fits right in with your labeling the Israeli State question as a 'long-running confrontation'.
From: dl925
11 05/23/1999 10:02:22 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I'm with you Uriel.Very well stated.......

Now how come no one ever talks about the 600,000 Jews driven from Arab lands


From: zendo7
12 05/23/1999 10:07:13 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I don't see revenge as the meaning of the Bible. The new covenant talks about love and forgiveness. In watching the bloodletting in Israel, I am reminded of karmic law. The Germans were into lebensraum and Aryan superiority; the Israelis are into the Golan heights and chosen people.

I am not trying to bait you.

When will people learn to stop the one upmanship? Who knows, I might reincarnate as a Jew or an Arab and have to come to grips with this personally.
From: rubbertramp
13 05/23/1999 10:07:59 PDT


To: zendo7

Read about the 600,000 Jews who were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs.

This happened after World War Two.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a370373d76f40.htm


From: zendo7
14 05/23/1999 10:13:33 PDT

To: Sueann

Your statements about Muslims are based on propoganda, and you
obviously don't know any real ones.

You can't judge everyone by what a few isolated people do than
you can judge Christianity by the Inquisition.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
15 05/23/1999 10:14:08 PDT


To: rubbertramp
This isn't about revenge, its about survival. If the Canadians were bombing and shelling American towns from the Vancouver Heights (as Syria was Israel) and had, in the past, invaded America several times from the Vancouver Heights, and were vocally committed to the murder of every American in our country, I would not annex the Vancouver Heights, the minimalist, peaceloving "half-solution" that Israel has chosen; I would launch thermonuclear warheads against every square inch of geography in Canada till there was nothing but a smoking crater filled with radioactive boiling glass.

Peace and Love are for individuals. Governments are in the business of protecting the lives of our wives and daughters from organized armies of murderers. Their militaries have only one purpose: to kill, and to kill, and to kill all those who would seek to harm their brother-and-sister citizens. It is a shining testament to the Israeli love for peace and restraint that they have not vaporized every single Arab city in the Middle East.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
16 05/23/1999 10:19:16 PDT


To: zendo7

Read about the 600,000 Jews who were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs.

This happened after World War Two.

The Forgotten Catstrophe: 700,000 Jews Expelled From Arab Countries


From: zendo7
17 05/23/1999 10:19:27 PDT

To: Sueann
Read the Qu'ran........
From: astonished
18 05/23/1999 10:22:47 PDT

To: Uriel1975

"By your sword you shall live,
and your brother you shall serve;
But when you become restive,
you shall throw off his yoke from your neck."

Genesis 27:40


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
19 05/23/1999 10:24:50 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Gee Uriel, I am glad you are not making the decisions over there...we'd all be toast.
From: rubbertramp
20 05/23/1999 10:24:57 PDT

To: zendo7
Thank you for this, zendo; but most anti-Semites are not willfully blind, they are willfully anti-Semite.

I will pray that you reach the few who are just truly uninformed. thank you again.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
21 05/23/1999 10:25:31 PDT


To: Uriel1975
My remarks are about the Israelis and Palestinians.

When I lived in the U.S. I accepted the media coverage of Israeli-Palestinian clashes. I had different information in the Middle East. Over and over, Arab friends with relatives near Israel would receive two rounds of telephone calls. The first round would be to report that Israeli soldiers had attacked without provocation, and that family members were/weren't okay. The second calls would be about the outrage, fear, and anguish they felt as they saw western news services distort and suppress events, with an anti-Palestinian bias. Often enough, the pattern was to report Palestinian attacks on Israelis while suppressing any coverage of a preceeding, unprovoked Israeli attack on Palestinians. The experience was edifying.
From: arch1
22 05/23/1999 10:27:09 PDT


To: rubbertramp

And this is the same guy who got someone banned - rightfully - for
saying he'ed be glad when Arabs start killing Jews.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
23 05/23/1999 10:32:14 PDT


To: Frenchie
Israel has been practicing Apartheid at American taxpayer expense for man years. When this policy was in effect in SA, the USA govt went Bananas and placed sanctions, now we give 5-7 billion in handouts every year to Israel.....just goes to show , who in the Hell is running Our Govt and it sure as hell is not true American Citizens.
From: King of Ithaca
24 05/23/1999 10:36:06 PDT

To: agaviator - you didn't read the rest. This is what awaits those who oppose Israel.
Ezekiel 38:8-9, 38:17,22, 39:4 --- "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter days you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. You will go up, you will come like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you...Thus says the Lord God,"are you the one of whom I spoke in My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophecied in those days for many years I would bring against them?...With pestilence and with blood I shall enter into judgement with him; and I shall rain on him and on all his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone...You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I shall give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and every beast of the field."

Israel's enemies will, in the latter days, invade Her with all their armies together. Of those invaders, not one will escape alive.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
25 05/23/1999 10:39:34 PDT


To: Uriel1975
You idiot, calling israel a democracy ! it is nothing but an illegal run by a bunch of thugs and financed by the stupid and duped American taxpayer. The only thing Israel needs is 90 day's of continued bombing by NATO as they are doing in Yugoslavia....Wake up America Citizens and stop being used and abused by these abominable SOBs.
From: King of Ithaca
26 05/23/1999 10:41:41 PDT

To: Uriel1975

Thank you for this, zendo; but most anti-Semites are not willfully blind, they are willfully anti-Semite.

I will pray that you reach the few who are just truly uninformed. thank you again.

Thanks....There are millions of Arabs and millions of square miles of Arab lands.It is a testimony to the extreme greed and hatred of the Arabs that they cannot abide the existence of 5 million Jews on the small territory that the Jews control.Israel needs some territories for security purposes and you can bet that many of the loudmouths here would also be armed to the teeth if they were in Israelis shoes.The Middle East is a very nasty place to live and Israel must behave appropriately or perish.

  Of course you are correct when you point out how brutally Arabs have behaved towards other Arabs. You left out the long,loony war between Iraq and Iran which had nothing to do with Israel but is just an example of how *diplomacy and *negotiations* are conducted in Arab lands.

 


From: zendo7
27 05/23/1999 10:41:44 PDT

To: arch1
Wow, they gat calls? In the Middle East? That's so neat! Arab dictators just torture, shoot, and poison gas anyone they don't like - for any reason!

Israel's got a lot to learn about oppression and murder. However, she is surrounded by masters of the art from which to learn.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
28 05/23/1999 10:42:05 PDT


To: King of Ithaca

Israel isn't God's chosen people, they're the American Taxpayer's
chosen people.

Let the lunatics have their Armageddon and blow themselves to
bits in some isolated corner of the planet. Just leave me and
mine out of it.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
29 05/23/1999 10:42:34 PDT


To: agaviator,rubbertramp
You deliberately misconstrue (not that I'm surprised).

If you don't think open Thermonuclear Defiance is an effective Defense policy, take it up with Ronald Reagan, winner of the Cold War. I say Israel should follow the same policy if real peace is to be secured.

Of course, if you believe the Scripture you cite, agaviator, then you're aware that in the last days, her enemies will invade her regardless; too bad for them, not one will make it out alive.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
30 05/23/1999 10:46:06 PDT


To: Uriel1975

Genesis cleaely states that Esau's descendants will eventually
throw off the yoke of Jacob, and no amount of ancillary and ambiguous
Scirpture following changes this basic fact.

And there are plenty of prophecies stating the doom that will
befall Israel too, I'm not going to spend all day looking them up
but will put in a few just to make the point clear.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
31 05/23/1999 10:46:24 PDT


To: King of Ithaca
Sorry, Israel does get invaded in the Latter days as you so fervently desire... unfortunately for you and yours, every invader is killed down to the last man. You lose.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
32 05/23/1999 10:48:18 PDT

To: agaviator
I see you support King of Ithaca, who's murderous call for Yugoslavia-style bombing of Israel is revelatory of his lust for murder. I'm not surprised you consider him a comrade. Your true colors show.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
33 05/23/1999 10:49:46 PDT

To: Uriel1975

Thank you for this, zendo; but most anti-Semites are not willfully blind, they are willfully anti-Semite.

Did you by any chance have the King of Ithaca in mind? He's a perennial troller for an angry [Jewish] reaction.


From: zendo7
34 05/23/1999 10:50:01 PDT

To: Frenchie
Those poor Palestinians. Imagine having to send your wife and children out everyday to face Israeli soldiers while you sit in a cafe and talk some kid into blowing up a busload of children.
From: ParrotsUp (parrotsup@yahoo.com)
35 05/23/1999 10:54:10 PDT

To: Uriel1975

"Gather, gather yourselves together,
O nation without shame!

For then I will remove from your midst
the proud braggarts,
and you shall no longer exalt yourself on my holy mountain.
But I will leave as a remnant in your midst,
a people humble and lowly,
Who shall take refuge in the name of the LORD:
the remnant of Israel."

Zephaniah 3: 11-13

Note the reference to "remnant".


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
36 05/23/1999 10:58:10 PDT


To: agaviator
Yes, but Israel's enemies get Death and Hell in the end, while Israel gets Life and Salvation:

Ezekiel 39:21b-23a-26-29 --- "and all the nations will see my judgement which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them...The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacerously against Me, and I hid My face from them...They shall forget their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely in their own land with noone to make them afraid...I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the House of Israel, declares the Lord God."

Jew-Haters condemned to Death and Hell. Israel restored to Life and Salvation. Sorry, that's the end score.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
37 05/23/1999 10:59:12 PDT


To: Frenchie
Uhhhh, OK.

Things are tough for the Palestinians. There's plenty of land in Jordan which is hugely Palestinian by percentage. The Arabs have 4-5 sacred holy cities yet they insist on greedily taking the only Jewish one as their exclusive possession. The Arabs have plenty of money collectively to house every Palestinian in Israel on a grand scale. Yet Israel is supposed to feel guilty for not taking better care of a people whom their own religionists and blood brothers have refused to take care of for 50+ years "merely" out of greedy and arrogant political demands, desires.

There would be an easy way for the Palistinians to become enormously blessed of God--to bless and serve the children of The Promise. They will not do that until their spiritual blindness is removed.

But, God has His own purposes for making Jerusalem a weight around the neck of the whole world. He WILL have His Glory manifested through it all. Woe to all foolish enough to go against His will and plan. Soon enough, there will be little argument or claim about what truth is and who's God is mightier or who's side Almighty God will be on. Yet, denial will still be a common occurance. None of us are so blind as when we WILL NOT see.
From: Dr Duck
38 05/23/1999 11:07:25 PDT


To: Uriel1975

The end score is that the people who are doing good are going
to make it, not those who consider themselves special by virtue
of ethnicity or religious affiliation.

So may I suggest stop trying to whip up hatred of Islamic people
and make sure you're among those who will be found to be on the
right side, which will be determined by how you've lived your
life, if the Bible is to be believed.

Your own scriptures have more scathing criticisms of your side
than can be found anywhere in the Koran.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
39 05/23/1999 11:08:08 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Oh heck, you're right. How could anyone fail to be persuaded by such a well focused array of facts. Besides, it's so foolish to believe first-hand information when we can count on the expertise of unbiased, well informed sources like you.
From: arch1
40 05/23/1999 11:11:26 PDT

To: agaviator
I have no interest in whipping up hatred of Islamic people.

But I will do everything to refute the vile Lie which equates Israeli responses to violent rebellion compared to Arab Dictaors (who the Arab people would be better - and certainly safer - off without!) who murder their peaceful opponents by the scores of thousands and seek the genocide of the entire Israeli Jewish Race.

When faced by fanatical murderers like this cabal of Arab Dictators, Israel's Government "Wields not the Sword in vain".
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
41 05/23/1999 11:12:36 PDT


To: arch1
first hand information

Try getting "first hand information from Jewish opponents of Arab Dictators living in the lands oppressed by those Dictators. Oh, sorry, they've all been murdered. Okay, the Arab opponents --- whoops, they've all been murdered too.

Okay, so you can't defend the company you've chosen to keep and have to resort to sarcasm. Figures. You appear to be an idiot; so I can understand your being brainwashed by the constant "evil-Jews-should-give-their-Country-away" slant of the Anti-Semitic US Clinton-loving Media. You have a simple mind, quite gullible, we all have are failings.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
42 05/23/1999 11:17:39 PDT


To: agaviator
I have read the Koran and I get so tired of what we do to one another and justify in the name of religion... Islam, Judiasm and Christianity can co-exist if it was about man's need of God instead of economics, power,land and vengence.
From: astonished
43 05/23/1999 11:19:06 PDT

To: Uriel1975
our, not are. LOL. Sorry, typing fast and wasn't watching too closely. Shame on me.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
44 05/23/1999 11:19:07 PDT

To: astonished
I agree.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
45 05/23/1999 11:20:35 PDT

To: Uriel1975

I don't see any references into the topic post about Arab dictators
or the destruction of Israel. I see lots of things about people
who are second-class citizens in a country they've been born in.

And this is being funded by American tax dollars.

Then people like yourself jump in with statements as to how God
is on your side and everyone who isn't with you will be destroyed.

Doesn't help much.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
46 05/23/1999 11:28:21 PDT


To: Frenchie
Israel is a small over-crowded country that needs additional land.
From: RLK
47 05/23/1999 11:35:43 PDT

To: astonished

I agree too. Even after the Crusades, Saladin arranged for
Christian pilgrims to visit Jersualem after he worked out a deal
with Richard the Lion-Hearted.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
48 05/23/1999 11:37:32 PDT


To: agaviator
Unfortunately, the issue isn't as clear cut as "poor little Palestinians". There is a widespread (certainly not all) strain of violent terrorists in the Palestinian areas; Their so-called "Leader" (oppressor) is a murdering sociopath (I'm right - have you ever blown up planes to make a point?) who is committed to the Destruction of Israel. Their communities have been cynically used by outside powers murderously hostile to Israel as staging points for the assembling of "freedom-fighting" actions like muredering schoolchildren, etc., etc.

Israeli Jews are a small, outnumbered Nation surrounded by Fanatical terrorist Dictators committed to the genocide of their race. They have been targeted by cowardly acts of terrorism by hostile elements within their own country for 30 years. Their treatment of the Palestinians, in light of the hard facts of MidEast violenece, has been exemplary; far better than the Palestinians could have hoped to receive at the hands of the Arab Dictators surrounding Israel if they were protesting the government with rocks and car bombs in those countries. Ask the Kurds.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
49 05/23/1999 11:40:09 PDT


To: RLK
Funny, they had all the Sinai, half again their land area, and control of the Suez, after 67 and 73. They gave it all back to Egypt just for recognizing their right to Exist --- something we damn well take for granted.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
50 05/23/1999 11:42:34 PDT

To: Frenchie
Frenchie, The problem is that BOTH sides could live with EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW, but NEITHER side would even consider such a thing for "those heathens". Peace and love, George.
From: George From Brooklyn Park
51 05/23/1999 11:44:12 PDT

To: Frenchie
Frenchie, P.S. I should have added that the REFUSAL to grant "them" equal rights under the law MANDATES the partition {seperation} that is necessary for socialism to work. Peace and love, George.
From: George From Brooklyn Park
52 05/23/1999 11:47:11 PDT

To: agaviator
BINGO! It can work! There doesn't have to be constant war and bloodshed!

But where are the "merciful conquerors" - who recognize other people's and other Faith's Right to Exist like the great Saladin - within the Arab Nations today?

Jordan, yes. (which Syria invaded them for, only withdrawing when Israel threatened reprisal). Egypt, pretty much (as long as the Pragmatics keep power from the Radicals). Syria? Iraq? Iran? Even the generally okay Saudis (who still haven't ever formally recognized Israel). Where are the Saladins? Answer: the arab dictators who oppress and murder their own countrymen are murdering the Saladins. Saladin, you see, was a Kurd.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
53 05/23/1999 11:47:58 PDT


To: George From Brooklyn Park
Arabs have Equal Rights under the law, In Israel Proper - which is why some (including myself) have always maintained Israel should just annex the Territories and have done with it. But, for 30 years, the US, under Arab pressure, has opposed that. So the Palestinians existed in a legal limbo... and now the chance of simply annexing-and-enfranchising is slipping away.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
54 05/23/1999 11:50:52 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Actually, you're mistaken about my susceptibility to the Clinton-run media, which is not a main source of information for me. My impressions are informed by (among other things) the past 20 years or so of media coverage. And I've said nothing about "evil Jews" for the simple reason that I don't believe Jews are evil. I do believe that every story has at least two sides and responded to the original post with pertinent information I happen to have.

It's clear we'll never have a fruitful dialogue on these issues, so I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.
From: arch1
55 05/23/1999 11:51:55 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Hey y'all! WHAT ABOUT WHAT GEORGE SAID? Are we gona ignore him?
From: astonished
56 05/23/1999 11:52:44 PDT

To: arch1
I can accept that. If that's where we stand, then I wish you well.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
57 05/23/1999 11:57:41 PDT

To: astonished
I responded to him. Did you want something specific addressed? Also, your thoughts on my last post?

Cordially await your reply.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
58 05/23/1999 11:58:47 PDT


To: astonished
My last post to avagiator, Re: saladin, that is.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
59 05/23/1999 12:01:03 PDT

To: Uriel1975
" But, for 30 years, the US, under Arab pressure, has opposed that."

Uriel, THAT is EXACTLY the point AND the problem. BUT, it is a problem that transcends{sp} both sides. The Israeli "enforcers" {for lack of a better word for those who are "Jews first"} have consistently and literally SHOVED Arab street vendors out of any attempts at competition in the "territories".

And IMHO, the "powers that be have decided that Israel cannot exist in our "NEW WORLD". It DEMANDS seperation and NOT equal rights. As we all see being pushed in the U.S. in order to "gain fairness". As you say, they extended {somewhat} equal rights in the area they were truely in control of. {Although I kind of have my doubts about the Arabs having equal access to firearms as do the Jews}. Peace and love, George.
From: George From Brooklyn Park
60 05/23/1999 12:06:26 PDT


To: Frenchie
The Israeli government has engaged in ethnic cleansing to a degree only exceeded by Nazi Germany.

The Palestinians are outraged at being displaced from their homes by a hoard of Eastern European carpetbaggers. That's how I see it.
From: Tazzo
61 05/23/1999 12:07:54 PDT


To: arch1
I have to agree with you and I really don't care about the flames. The truth has to be told. The Palestinians are not angels, but the Israeli government takes the cake for its chuztpah.

Israel is not our friend like most people thinks it is. I am not one who believes that they should kow-tow to our demands because we pay Israel billions, but come on. They should show some respect for us (which they don't), they should stop picking fights (which they do) and they should at least stop taking things that aren't theirs.

I'm a firm believer in "You reap what you sow." They have been reaping the harvest of hatred that they had sown decades ago. I spent time covering the three-mile stretch in South Lebanon. I can speak from personal experience.
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
62 05/23/1999 12:10:20 PDT


To: Uriel1975

The country of Israel itself owes its existence to terrorism,
which Menachaim Begin and others were quite well-versed in.

If the US were even-handed in its policies, and spent
proportionally as much time and money on promoting progressive
Islamic regimes as it gives to the Israeli state, you wouldn't
see nearly so many crazies as there are now, taking advantage
of entire people's sentiments that no one in the world has the
least concern for them and that America is hopelessly and shamelessly
in favor of one side no matter how egregious its actions are.

THe bottom line is, the Palestinians have been there just as long
as the Jews, if not longer, and they've been systematically deprived
of their rights by some people who cite a thousands-year-old book
they haven't in most cases even bothered to read carefully.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
63 05/23/1999 12:12:22 PDT


To: The Documentary Lady
We shouldn't be paying Israel Billions, period. that solves the whole kow-towing question.

But The idea that Israel invaded Southern Lebanon without any regard for the dozens of terrorist base camps using Sothern Lebanon as a staging ground for murder raids into Israel is, well, silly.

When Syrian military forces are shelling and bombing your civilians from the high ground, you take the high ground away (Golan Heights). When terrorists are driving truck bombs towards Tel Aviv from bases in Southern Lebanon, you move in and kill the bases. People decry Israel for "taking" territory; is it that easy for you to conveniently forget how terrorists and Arab Dictators were using the territory when they had it?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
64 05/23/1999 12:18:47 PDT


To: Uriel1975
who's murderous call for Yugoslavia-style bombing of Israel***Do you have any objection about the Israelis bombing the h-ell out of South Lebanon, even though there has never been any conflict between the two countries?

The Lebanese welcomed the Israeli soldiers with flowers when they invaded Lebanon to drive out the PLO. A few years later, the Israelis were being driven out by rocks and suicide bombs. That says a lot about how Israel conducts itself. They feel they can take what they want, and if you're an easy target (like Lebanon), so much the better.
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
65 05/23/1999 12:19:21 PDT


To: The Documentary Lady
The lebanese welcomed the Israelis...etc.

Speaks volumes of how their leaders were treating them... welcoming the Jews despite all that "bombing" of which you speak...

A few years later...rocks and sticks...etc.

The Israelis weren't on a "humanitarian" bombing mission. They were there to kill terrorists. If there'd been no terrorists, there'd have been no invasion. Pretty simple, really.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
66 05/23/1999 12:25:25 PDT


To: Frenchie
God looks at the heart and Jews are not immune from this. Each Jew is judged on his/her own merit, just like every other individual in the world. Too many people look at the Jews at a bloc rather than as individuals whether they are for or against Israel. This is racist.

God loves the individual with faith whether he be from a white, black, or oriental, or Semitic background. This is St. Paul's message in the New Testament to the Church. This is why the Jews of his day rioted every time he spoke. He was saying that God loved Jews, yes, but he also loved all peoples.
From: what's up
67 05/23/1999 12:26:10 PDT


To: Uriel1975
The people of Lebanon were grateful for the Israeli invasion. The are a country of merchants, not warriors. The whole idea of being a "warrior" had devastting effects with a civil war that lasted 20 years. The destruction from it is unbelievable.

If the Israelis had honored their promises to the Lebanese government, there would be no Hez, there would be no three mile stretch (which is hated by both Israelis and Lebanese), and both the Israeli settlers and the Lebanese farmers could go back to making the kind of money that they used to make. Millions of dollars of trade go across that border every year, and it seems that the Israeli government is determined to get a piece of the action.
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
68 05/23/1999 12:28:59 PDT


To: Uriel1975

Pretty simple, really.

It's also pretty simple to say that anyone who gets killed, civilian
or not, is a "terrorist" by definition, true or not.

If we had the same kind of media coverage of Kosovo as Israel has
had for its incursions, NATO would be getting nothing but praise.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
69 05/23/1999 12:34:35 PDT


To: agaviator
Bible and Begin aside, the State of Israel owes its existence to the 1917 Balfour Declaration, to which the Arabs agreed (Hey, they got liberated from Turkish rule too and liked the whole deal). The Balfour Declaration was later carved up by the UN to give the Israelis half of what they had been promised, but by 1947-8, the Arab leaders in power weren't even willing (despite the Holocaust) to let the Jews have that much. So on the eve of Israel's creation, five arab armies with 80,000 men and heavy weaponry from British colonial days invaded the tiny, subdivided State of Israel, defended by 30,000 Jewish partisans armed with small arms.

They lost. Badly. The Israelis ended up with a larger, united State.

So Jordan annexed the West Bank, and declared its citizens to be Jordanians. Enter 1967: After losing another war against an outnumbered and outgunned Israel, Jordan lost the West Bank. This time, however, it seems that the Jordanians weren't willing to accept repatriation of their West Bank Jordanian citizens. Who now get re-termed "Palestinians" and stuck in a legal limbo.

The entire "Palestinian" problem stems from two factors: Jordan's 1967 unwillingness to accept repatriation of the West Bank Jordanians, while at the same time Israel (dependent on US at that time) couldn't just annex the territories due to Arab-inspired US pressure.

The Jews got stuck in this mess. The "Palestinian" problem is an Arab creation, and all "difficulties" the Palestinians have faced are Arab responsibility. No resolution can ever occur while Israel's Right to Exist is denied by those same Arab Dictatorships.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
70 05/23/1999 12:38:51 PDT


To: The Documentary Lady
I really don't care about the flames. The truth has to be told.

Thanks very much. People who've lived in the Middle East understand that there's a big gap bewtween what actually goes on there and what is reported in the States. The perspective is all but inaccessible here. Still, people do--or can know--know that Israel continues to build settlements where they promised not to. I'm amazed that we continue to support them so strongly when they have broken this crucial-to-peace agreement.
From: arch1
71 05/23/1999 12:40:07 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I see where you are coming from, maybe this will help. The Arabs, when using the word "Jew" are actually referring to what we call zionists. The people in Israel that follow are religious and God-fearing are called another name. I cna't remember how to say it, but it means old Moslems.

You have to understand that the Arabs are coming from a "NWO" standpoint. BTW, most Arabs believe that the leaders of the Middle Eastern countries, including Israel, are NWO lackeys.
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
72 05/23/1999 12:41:33 PDT


To: The Documentary Lady
That's one view. My view - if I'd been running the Government of a small, outnumbered, and Regionally-hated State... and I had seen my Country's schoolchildren murdered by terrorist murder raids from a strip of terrorist-controlled territory, I would take that strip, kill all the terrorists, and not get fooled again. If a real democratic, peaceful Government had come to power in Lebanon (maybe one would've if the Israelis had stuck around in Beirut), then maybe the Israelis could talk withdrawal. As long as Lebanon is controlled by the cronies of Terrorist Dictator Hafez Assad, I would hold on to my buffer zone for dear life. I wouldn't trust Assad anywhere but in front of the barrel of a gun.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
73 05/23/1999 12:45:19 PDT

To: Uriel1975
t'agid li, Uriel, eifo ata? G'arti b'shtachim 8 shanim, v'ze paam rishona sh' meshehu b'Free Republic, yodea ma korea b'Yisrael. Ata b'Yisrael achshav? V'im kein, ma ata oseh po, b'politika Americai?
From: Sarah
74 05/23/1999 12:46:55 PDT

To: arch1
crucial-to-peace agreement

It's a false peace. Bibi was right to keep building. There can never be a peaceful Palestinian province under a man who has blown up civilian airplanes for sport. Arafat murdered Americans. Dump Arafat, give me someone else running the Pal.Authority, and I'll think about it. It's a cobra in Israel's bedding until then.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
75 05/23/1999 12:49:42 PDT


To: Sarah
Heck, I don't even speak German, and over two third of my ancestry hails from the Fatherland.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
76 05/23/1999 12:51:00 PDT

To: Sarah
I haven't a drop of Jew in me.

My loss. :-)
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
77 05/23/1999 12:52:00 PDT


To: Frenchie
"The final solution for governing Palestinian territories has not been decided, but Jewish settlements are sprouting like dandelions on golf course greens" - I see. The Israelis are weeds, the Palestinians the golf course. Interesting. What next - will slick be the putter, and Israel the golf ball?

"Israelis claim the roads provide necessary security" - how crass! The nerve! They should idiotically expose themselves to rabid PLO nuts, the fools.

"Israel’s population density is similar to Connecticut, so expansion is not a problem" - unless Globocop clintonistas disagree with their choice of space in their own country. Israel created a modern, defensible, thriving nation out of swamps, forests where there was desolation, and worked their tails off to do so. The Palestinians waited like Hyenas to claim scraps, sitting on their butts and moaning about their lot in life when they weren't being terrorists. And THEY should be given Israel's accomplishments? How ridiculous.

"Expansion, like freedom, is okay for everybody but Palestinians, who Israelis apparently still hope will magically dissolve into neighboring countries" - well, heck, pardon me, but the Jews spent centuries dealing with just this kind of existence, and were nearly wiped off the earth in the process. They have a tiny piece of territory, surrounded by countries who despise them. The Palestinians, in contrast, have endless opportunities to get a life elsewhere, among friends and neighbors - but choose to be obnoxious, racist, genocidal twits instead. Genocidal? Yep. It's their belief system. WE GOOD. JEW BAD. HELP, KLINTON! SEND, CARVILLE! Besides, expansion and freedom is something you EARN, you WORK for, like the people who build THIS nation (the USA), but that's criminal now.

"When options for food are scarce, you pick up a shovel" - that's right, sometimes you gotta take what work you can get. It's our lot in life, every one of us, to do time in dumb jobs, with the choice to make ourselves better, to dream, to set goals, accomplish something, and have more. The Jews built the nation of Israel starting with shovels. Happens all over the world. Most successful people can well remember when they were making small change pushing brooms, digging holes, or serving food in restaurants. They didn't become successful by whining and waiting for welfare or governments to bail them out. Nobody wants to WORK anymore. What's wrong with this picture?

"We wondered how different this land would be today if CNN had been there to film Israeli tanks and bulldozers in action" - God, if ONLY we'd had the clinton news network to STOP progress in that area, bring in the NWO, kill the Jews and leave the ragged, pitiless land to the nomads. THAT would have changed everything. CIVILIZATION BAD. THIRD WORLD GOOD. Waaah, waaah, waaah.
From: bluejean
78 05/23/1999 12:59:38 PDT


To: bluejean
Thank you.

And get ready for flames.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
79 05/23/1999 13:02:41 PDT


To: agaviator

What an interesting Scripture to use at this time. The words spoken to Esau by Isaac, who loved his son. Unfortunately Esau had just lost his birthright. What was Isaac to do? How could he comfort his son? He didn't restore the birthright. But spoke prophetically about the path to restoration, which is to break lose from the sword, and then he would shake the yoke off his neck.

Who is it who breaks the yoke of hatred and violence? None other than the seed of Jacob, the Messiah, Y'Shua of Natzeret. As G-D provided water for Hagar and Ishmael, there is none who He turns away, who repents and turns to Him.

Today is the feast of Pentecost, the traditional celebration of the Torah given to Moshe, by the same G-d whose shed blood ratified the New Covenant and initiated a new creation through the power of the Holy Spirit to those in the upper room (who were Jewish).

As spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet, "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'Yhudah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI. "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will by my people. No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more."

This is what I believe is the future of Israel.
From: hangwithme (toesnag@msn.com)
80 05/23/1999 13:03:40 PDT


To: Frenchie
Finally, someone willing to tell the truth about the Jews' treatment of the Palestinian people. Get ready for "ethnic filthing" by the Jewish elite!
From: clews (clews@cct.infi.net)
81 05/23/1999 13:03:43 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Arafat murdered Americans***Dang straight! What are we doing hanging with this guy?
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
82 05/23/1999 13:08:57 PDT

To: clews
the truth about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians...etc.

Yes, indeed --- The settlements are stark white structures with red roofs. Perched on hills like cheap condos modelled after "Monopoly" houses.

Why, those awful Jews, they are oppressing the Palestinians with their poor fashion sense. How inhumane! How horrific! Why, jeeves, how very gauche' of them!

I mean, at least the murderous Terrorist Dictators surrounding Israel have the good sense to torture, shoot, and mass poison gas their rebellious dissidents in style!

Don't those evil Jews no how much "clews" disagrees with their sense of architectural motif?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
83 05/23/1999 13:11:16 PDT


To: Uriel1975

The Jews got stuck in this mess. The "Palestinian" problem
is an Arab creation, and all "difficulties" the Palestinians have
faced are Arab responsibility.

Not entirely. The topic of this thread is Palestinians who live
in areas under Israeli control, not under Arab dictator control.

Who are seeing Jewish newcomers from other lands get precedence
over their own needs, even though their families may have lived
in this region for thousands of years.

It's simply not right to use one group of people as a political
football because some other group of people somewhere else has
differences with the regime in power.

But I'll take even this argument over the "God's going to destroy
everyone who's not on our side" one, gladly.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
84 05/23/1999 13:11:39 PDT


To: arch1
I'm amazed that we continue to support them so strongly when they have broken this crucial-to-peace agreement.***

Has Israel ever kept a deal? I've had to go back and take a look at years of agreements, public and otherwise and I gave up trying to find one that they kept. If they did, it was so long ago that it really didn't matter.
From: The Documentary Lady (Bettyina@aol.com)
85 05/23/1999 13:12:16 PDT


To: Uriel1975
"And get ready for flames" - yeah, I know. I'll be singe-in' in the rain. It'll spark fires o' controversy.
From: bluejean
86 05/23/1999 13:13:19 PDT

To: The Documentary Lady
My point exactly. Israel should not be coerced to give up a damn thing to the Palestinians until they slough off this terrorist sociopath like a bad hangover.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
87 05/23/1999 13:13:56 PDT

To: agaviator
The "In Last Days, God's going to kill everyone who invades Israel" argument isn't an argument. It is a statement of Prophecy. I believe it will be borne out. BUt you're wrong if you think I want the job, you're mistaken. I'll leave that to God.

And as I've said before, I will consider whether or not the Palestinians are getting a fair deal from an Israel whom the Arab Dictators abandoned them too, after they slough off the American-Murdering Terrorist Sociopath Yassir Arafat. Until then, it's inviting a known terrorist who endorsed Hussein to run amok behind your lines.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
88 05/23/1999 13:20:16 PDT


To: agaviator & The Documentary Lady
I have to go-- ag, thanks for your great posts and efforts to keep this thread focused. TDL, Amen to that; and I'm weary of seeing so much U.S. support go to folks who continually escape accountability for their actions.
From: arch1
89 05/23/1999 13:24:40 PDT

To: The Documentary Lady

I have to agree with you and I really don't care about the flames. The truth has to be told. The Palestinians are not angels, but the Israeli government takes the cake for its chuztpah.

Israel is not our friend like most people think it is. I am not one who believes that they should kow-tow to our demands because we pay Israel billions, but come on. They should show some respect for us (which they don't), they should stop picking fights (which they do) and they should at least stop taking things that aren't theirs.

I'm a firm believer in "You reap what you sow." They have been reaping the harvest of hatred that they had sown decades ago. I spent time covering the three-mile stretch in South Lebanon. I can speak from personal experience.

=====================================================

So how would you behave if you were an Israeli Jew? Would you give up land in the hope for peace? Would you arm yourself very well with nuclear bombs as the ultimate deterrent? How would you behave if you were out numbered 200 to one by Arabs.

You want to know why the Jews are in Israel?Because of World War Two.If it weren't for all the Jews killed there would never have been a Jewish State.The problem of the Christian world became the problem of the Arab world.Now the Christian world has to live with this condition in the Middle East.There is no divorce.There is no easy denial and escape.

It is so written.


From: zendo7
90 05/23/1999 13:27:33 PDT

To: The Documentary Lady
Has Israel ever kept a deal?

The 1917 Balfour Declaration, which Arab leaders signed, promised the Jews the entire Transjordan Province. The State of Israel, the Territories, and The Whole Country of Jordan as a "homeland for the Jews. The Jews agreed in 1922 to a revision carving off the eastern 80% as the country of Jordan, but were still promised all Israel including the Territories. In 1947 the Jews again agreed to a revision cutting Israel into three disparate parts, and the Arabs still invaded the very day of their Independence. Since the Nation of Jordan violated the peace terms of the UN Declaration and the Balfour Declaration by invading Israel, then under the principle of a breach of Contract, Israel would have every right to re-assert their claim over the whole pre-1948 Transjordan Province. They haven't.

But they would have every Right. The Arabs agreed, agreed, agreed... and then invaded.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
91 05/23/1999 13:28:20 PDT


To: Sarah -- still out there?
Not going to tell me what you said? I was hoping to find out! :-)

Cordially awaiting your response, Uriel.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
92 05/23/1999 13:30:47 PDT


To: bluejean
"The final solution for governing Palestinian territories has not been decided, but Jewish settlements are sprouting like dandelions on golf course greens" - I see. The Israelis are weeds, the Palestinians the golf course. Interesting. What next - will slick be the putter, and Israel the golf ball? "

Is that really how you read what the writer said?
From: astonished
93 05/23/1999 13:31:48 PDT


To: astonished
It's what he said! How would you like us to read it?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
94 05/23/1999 13:38:55 PDT

To: The Documentary Lady
Doc Lady, When we refer to "promises", I would suggest ALL of the recent "promises" by the "Palistinians" have been broken in that the "Palistinian Charter" that in essence calls for driving ALL Israelis "into the sea" has never been and probably WILL never be rewritten. As per PROMISES made BEFORE any further negotiations would take place!! THIS is a verboten subject. Peace and love, George.
From: George From Brooklyn Park
95 05/23/1999 13:39:05 PDT

To: hangwithme

To your post I'd add that "Israel" refers to a virtuous people,
and "Zion" is a political entity.

Throughout history many people associated with Judaism haven't
made this distinction, including some followers of Jesus called
"zealots" who wanted to overthrow the Romans by force, and even
Judas Iscariot.

I think one of the biggest problems with the question of
Israel is people continually wanting a political expression of
a spiritual teaching.

Of course, they're free to believe and strive for what they want,
but if my tax dollars are funding things then I'd like to see more
US-style principles applied, which means "equal rights under the
law" for everyone, not just a predominant ethnic group.

And right now I only see a US-financed political entity, not any
sort of spiritual fraternity.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
96 05/23/1999 13:43:01 PDT


To: Uriel1975

Arafat, Hussein, and even the Taliban didn't arise in a vacuum.
They are all the product of a foreign policy that has created
an unnatural predominance of a very small group of people at the
expense of a much larger group.

Therefore it is even necessary to tacitly approve the existence
of strongmen and dictators who can keep their poplulations in
line, and who will be preoccupied with their own ambitions and
not with the welfare of their people.

Saudi Arabia, for example, is just as fundamentalist as Afghanistan,
but we rarely hear about it because its leaders have been co-opted
into doing what the US wants.

The way out of this is for the US to stand for the rights of all people
both Jews in Muslim land and Muslims in Jewish-controlled states.

It will be a long process, but one that should be worth it.
What is the alternative?

And Israel has also attacked and killed Americans, most notably
aboard the USS Liberty which was flying an American flag in
broad daylight. They can spin this however they want, but
the blunt fact is those pilots knew damn well the Arabs didn't
have a navy.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
97 05/23/1999 14:00:17 PDT


To: agaviator
Regarding the Liberty, I don't know what happened there for sure, and I doubt I ever will. I'm not going to claim (as many on this site do) that I am some ex-Intel with "secret intercepts" that magically support my view. I do know that the Israelis, in 1967, knew that there were Russian ships and Egyptian ships floating around in the area, and weren't even sure We were on their side. You can take that as you will - I think Israel's history of military cooperation speaks for itself, but you will believe what you want to.

And the best way to spread Democracy in a region, if one wants too, is to support that nation which is (by far) most democratic and most pluralist. Israel has this honor by a mile. They are a Shining Light of Freedom and Sanity in the dark "Arab Socialism" terrorist Dictatorships of the Middle East. They are the example to follow in-region, even in their treatment of dissidents (if only Iraq and Syria and the Saudis were so fond of non-lethals!); and they have no burden to give the Pals a damn thing until the Pals ditch the murdering sociopath that made detonating Americans not a one-time mystery, but a two-decade Policy.

Ezekiel 38:21-22a --- Say to them, "Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel"...

Does this sound to you like the Jews said "Next year in Jerusalem" over a "precept"? Does this refer to a "Spiritual Fraternity"? It is a crass denial of Jewish tradition and of simple commonsense to say that this refers to anything but a political, physical, actual Nation. And so she is. And a light to all those Terrorist dictators around her who never thought of using non-lethal means on dissidents.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
98 05/23/1999 14:18:17 PDT


To: astonished
"The final solution for governing Palestinian territories has not been decided, but Jewish settlements are sprouting like dandelions on golf course greens" - I see. The Israelis are weeds, the Palestinians the golf course. Interesting. What next - will slick be the putter, and Israel the golf ball? " Is that really how you read what the writer said?

Why not? The writer is drawing an analogy, in likening the 'Palestinian territories', which is what I should have said rather than the Palestinians themselves (not Israeli territories of course) to golf greens with weeds sprouting on them, marring their otherwise pristine beauty. Dandelions on golf courses are BAD. The Israeli building projects are ugly because they're on the 'golf greens', and not dying from weed killer, since the only good dandelion is a dead dandelion (or growing where no one would care about them, such as in an unwanted field. But the PLO WANTS THIS FIELD. Some people don't MIND dandelions, but they've taken a ton of discriminatory abuse over the years! Got em'? Kill 'em. The picture is of a controlled (?) environment that has been invaded by an unwelcome 'guest'. The analogy breaks down of course, but the psychological game in presenting the picture as such is there, and it's deeper than an artsy statement, given the context of the article. Analogies are powerful. They evoke images, and images evoke responses. It's the stuff of creative writing, a simple tool to drive otherwise bland concepts home with enough force to call up visual images, which are also very powerful. Whew! Sorry for blathering, but I wanted to answer the question.
From: bluejean
99 05/23/1999 14:22:27 PDT


To: bluejean
You answered it, blue.

It's Propaganda. I can tell that. You can tell that. But it still suckers some.

That's why it's called, "Propaganda".
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
100 05/23/1999 14:27:23 PDT


To: Frenchie
And those mean Israeli's actually allow Palestinians to vote and have seats in the Knesset. Anyone know of free democratic elections under Arafat. Any Jews sitting in the Palestinian Authority leadership. No Arab country would accept the Palestinians. Wonder Why???
From: Jan from Jersey
101 05/23/1999 14:41:55 PDT

To: Jan from Jersey
Stop posting Facts and Logic when there's evil Israelis to demonize!
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
102 05/23/1999 14:46:34 PDT

To: Tazzo
Of course, you see it that way because you are an idiot. We all have our failings.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
103 05/23/1999 15:21:19 PDT

To: Uriel1975
that was just some transliterated hebrew, since I don't know how to load hebrew fonts into Free Republic. I was agreeing with you, and assumed from your writings that you were Israeli, or at least Jewish and fluent in Hebrew. There is this organization, F.L.A.M.E. (Facts and Logic About the Middle East) that advertises in some Conservative publications here in the U.S. that also tries to scream out the truth, as you are, that is so buried here in the U.S.

The Jews that are in power are so anti- a strong Jewish State that if one didn't know any better, you'd think that the Israelis were barbarians. As you quote so well: Remember in Shoftim (Judges), when Saul calls the soul of Shmuel Ha Navi (Samuel the Prophet), and asks him who the next King of Israel will be? and when Shmuel answers him that David has been chosen, Shaul responds: Why didn't you tell me that it was David?, and Shmuel responds: I was afraid. But here, in the world of truth I must answer truthfully.... "Olam Ha Zeh, Olam Sheker." The earthly world is a world of lies, and when you know the truth is being so skillfully and relentlessly covered up, it helps to remember that there is a G-d in the world who sees all, and remembers all.

I have a son with stitches in his head from rocks thrown from a refugee camp. I was there when some Israelis tried to chase them away, and were arrested for attacking the Palestinians. In the papers there was no mention of any attack. There were at least 20 Jewish vehicles involved in the attack. Not one Palestinian was hurt. The only photo in the paper was the lone Israeli chasing some kids.

What bothers me the most about people like Frenchie here, is that since I know very well about what I speak, I can tell when someone has a point of view, with NO FACTS to back him up. It's just simply anti-semitism spewed out robotically. I know some Arabs well who lived near us. Some were really left with nothing after they evacuated their homes on the advice of their arab brothers. This is not Israel's fault. Why don't the rich arab countries care about their brothers? Israel expends effort and money to save the Ethopians once they are convinced that they are Jewish. And the Russians? Can't any one see how their judgement is clouded by simple hatred.
From: Sarah
104 05/23/1999 17:08:59 PDT


To: agaviator
Look again.
From: hangwithme (toesnag@msn.com)
105 05/23/1999 17:20:26 PDT

To: Uriel1975

More Eziekel:

"Then shall those who live in the cities of Israel go out and
burn weapons: [shields and bucklers,] bows and arrows, clubs and
lances; for seven years they shall make fires with them."

Ezikiel 39:9

Do you know any PLO who have bows and arrows? And why did
Israel even sign a treaty with them?

Eaikiel goes on to describe archtectural plans in Chapters 40 - 44.
There's no sign, of course, of any of these things happening.

However Ezikiel 47:23 does explicitly state:

"You shall distribute this land among yourselves according
to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as inheritances for
yourselves and for the aliens in your midst who have bred children
among you. The latter shall be to you like native Israelites,
along with you they shall receive inheritances among the tribes
of Israel. In whatever tribe the alien may be resident, there you
shall assign him his inheritance."

So whether Ezikiel does or does not care about a secular nation,
he does instruct the Israelites to treat the Arabs fairly,
which of course brings us back to the topic of this thread.

Nowhere do I see instructions to deny the "aliens resident in
your midst" their rights because people don't like their self-
appointed leader who the Israelis have already signed a deal with
in the first place.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
106 05/23/1999 17:33:20 PDT


To: Sarah
Thank you, sarah. Nope, as I noted before, I am mostly German - thus with my own particular reference point in the discussion. One which informs my understanding of why the State of Israel was such a Necessity, besides being a Promise and a Right (that of Britain and the League of Nations, in addition to God).

I have read FLAME when I could get ahold of them for years. Since I was about 8, I suppose. But I just see snippets of their articles, and not as often as I used to. I cannot find a Web Posting, or a catalog on Amazon; any assistance you would care to render would be welcome.

You and I know that some of the most favorable press the Palestinians receive come right out of the Israeli Press. They try to be so "fair", yet it is twisted back around and thrown in their faces as "See, even you admit you are repressive!" Goebbels would be proud; the "Lie" becomes the "Truth" and Israel's isolation increases.

Well, the Children of Jacob win in the end. As noted - please, any links to FLAME, thanks.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
107 05/23/1999 17:34:41 PDT


To: agaviator

"Bows and Arrows"? Hmm, wonder how I, as a 570 BC prophet, would describe point-and-shoot ballistic projectile weapons (like AK-47s). Guess I would describe it as best I could to my audience, for their understanding.

And, as I'm sure you well know, Ezekiel is a pretty chronological book; Ez. 47 is after the Destruction of Israel's Enemies, and the Restoration of Israel, in the time of the Messianic Kingdom. At that time, when no enemies seek to murder Her, and Her alien Tribes are not run by Sociopaths, She will live in peace with Her alien Tribes in Her midst. I am all for it happening before then, were it possible; but thinking Peace and Harmony with the Pals is realistic as long as they are ruled over by an American-murdering Sociopath is the crassest naivete.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
108 05/23/1999 17:42:51 PDT


To: clews
Finally, someone willing to tell the truth about the Jews' treatment of the Palestinian people. Get ready for "ethnic filthing" by the Jewish elite!

I suggest you read a book by Arafat former mistress
AUTHOR(s): Peters, Joan, 1938-
TITLE(s): From time immemorial : the origins of the Arab-Jewish
conflict over Palestine / Joan Peters. --
1st ed. --
New York : Harper & Row, c1984.
x, 601 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
Includes index.
Bibliography: p. 565-577.
OTHER ENTRIES: Jews Arab countries.
Palestinian Arabs.
Jewish-Arab relations 1917-1949.

From: XeniaSt (truth@YashuaHaMashisch)
109 05/23/1999 17:52:12 PDT


To: XeniaSt
They won't. Anti-Semites are not just willfully blind; They are willfully anti-Semite.

Sad but True.

Good of you to try, though.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
110 05/23/1999 17:57:49 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Maranatha

Baruch HaShem Adonai


From: XeniaSt (truth@YashuaHaMashisch)
111 05/23/1999 18:00:41 PDT


To: Uriel1975

I'm sure that if Palestinians were treated fairly as Israelites
are instructed by the prophets, not just Ezikiel, most support
for any "murdering sociopaths" would quickly evaporate.

And why did Israel legitimize this "murdering sociopath" in the
first place? Israelis have made him what he is today.

Basically the Israeli side is selectively quoting the Bible and
only citing those passages which give it the advantage, while
denying any responsibility to make things right or fulfill its
obligations. And that may be the Israeli way, but it's not the
American way and we in this country have no obligation to assist
this process with our foreign aid or government policies.

Things are somewhat better in Israel than in other countries in
the region, but I have to wonder how different things would be
if the US had lavished as much money and effort into some
country like, say, Lebanon as it has on Israel.

Having power conveys with it responsibilities as well as rights.

Saying that someone else isn't doing his part, when you are the
one who is setting the pace, isn't acceptable.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
112 05/23/1999 18:04:24 PDT


To: Uriel1975
In my family and my community we were well aware of the Palestinian problem long before 1967.. In my memory we were concerned about it as early as 1953 or 54.

Did I misunderstand you on this? That there wasn't a Palestinian problem until 1967?
From: astonished
113 05/23/1999 18:07:26 PDT


To: Frenchie
The best solution for israel, is to send all American jews to israel who owe their allegiance to that corrupt little nasty state , and send all the Palestinians over here in American where they can become filthy rich without being intimidated,insulted,degraded,downgraded,wounded,maimed,maligned,robbed,beaten,killed and forced into genocide. Why any non-israeli would want to live within 1000 miles of that place is beyond me.
From: King of Ithaca
114 05/23/1999 18:12:58 PDT

To: agaviator
Then I believe we can finally come to an agreement.

You may go on defending the Murdering Dictators surrounding Israel, and turning a blind eye to Hamas in-country terrorists machinegunning Israeli Jewish schoolchildren, but I demand that you admit that I have said all along

I do not support one dime of Foreign Aid for Israel or anybody because Foreign Aid is Unconstitutional

I will continue to call for the US to offer its utmost support of the Middle East's Only Democracy as far as Diplomacy goes, but if all you are worried about are the "rights and responsibilities" of the Money Game, then I will repeat my call for us getting out of the Foreign Aid game entirely and have done with you.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
115 05/23/1999 18:17:12 PDT


To: astonished
The "Palestinians" of the 50s are not the issue - they are now integrated Israeli Arab citizens. But since the US - acceding to Arab pressure - would never let Israel annex the West Bank, The West Bank Jordanians ("Palestinians" of today) could never be peacefully integrated.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
116 05/23/1999 18:20:25 PDT

To: Sueann
I know you made this post this morning, but I think it bears repeating.

You bring out a very important principle that is paramount today: those who do not study HISTORY are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

This applies to all topics certainly including the one on this thread. I am amazed at the vast numbers of people who look at life with tunnelvision, not even trying to understand the precursors to a given situation.

Machiavelli, the great Italian statesman, said that history is cyclical (history repeats itself). Talk about being given a thousand chances at getting something right. Whew!

Thanks for indulging me.
Peace!

From: GI Jane (Somedayitwon'tbehidden!)
117 05/23/1999 18:22:02 PDT


To: King of Ithaca
KOI: Import the Palestinians to the US, and export our Jews.

Of Course, American Jews have at least as much right to live here as fascist America-haters like you, but sure, let's import the Palestinians. After Hamas machineguns a few busloads of American schoolchildren, see if we exercise as much restraint as the Jews.

But it would never work, because the Hamas do not want just any chunk of Land, they want the land promised to the Jews, with Arab approval at the time of the Agreement, Since 1917. And they want to murder every Jew in Israel to get it, and if that means their fellow countrymen get "mistreated" for throwing rocks and molotovs at Israeli Police, well, The Hamas and the PLO don't really give a damn. They couldn't care less about the "plight" of their "people"; their idol is the Terrorist, Dictatorial Arab Socialism of Saddam Hussein and Assad, their murderous masters.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
118 05/23/1999 18:27:55 PDT


To: XeniaSt
And I suggest you try talking with an occsional real live Palestinian, one on one.

And to Uriel, so you wish you were a Jew. Well, it may surprise you to know, that makes you what Jewish elitists derisively call a "wannabe." Congratulations on surrendering your own identity to their arrogance.
From: clews (clews@cct.infi.net)
119 05/23/1999 18:30:25 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I did not address you in my last post but since your addicted to that oral disease I mentioned, I will tell you that if I were a Palestinian, I would be working 24 hrs a day to build an equalizer. If you think the continued genocide of those great people is A OK, your in for the surprise of your life. The misserable little state of madness (israel) was built by thugs, killers, gangsters and American taxpayer dollars....I just want to see some good old fashioned western justice applied and it willllllllll.
From: King of Ithaca
120 05/23/1999 18:41:20 PDT

To: clews
And I suggest you try talking with an occsional real live Palestinian, one on one.

But have you read the book "From Time Immemorial"

She started from an anti-Israel position based on propaganda of the PLO and then learned the facts.
From: XeniaSt (truth@YashuaHaMashisch)
121 05/23/1999 18:45:15 PDT


To: clews
I am proud as Bismark of my German heritage. Your attitudes, and the crimes it brought, forever besmirched the honor of one of the greatest cultures on Earth, the Fatherland. I have no patience with your worthless drivel.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
122 05/23/1999 18:45:24 PDT

To: King of Ithaca
Rant, rant, rant... wonderful, you are back to amusing me for my enjoyment. That is good.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
123 05/23/1999 18:46:35 PDT

To: Uriel1975
I'm re-reading an incredible book: "The Nazi Seizure of Power", by William Sheridan Allen. This is a must-read for any simple anti-German theory of how the Nazis gained power in Germany. Americans who think that it could not happen here (be it anti black, anti semitic, or anti white) have no concept of the machinations of those on a crusade.

Do you see yourself as a righteous Gentile? Like those of the '7 Noachide Laws?' There is even a German speaking settlement of them in Israel!! There is, whenever such an article is posted, a 'crawling- out- from- under- the- rocks' phenomenon here that really does scare me.
From: Sarah
124 05/23/1999 18:57:34 PDT


To: Uriel1975
any links to FLAME, thanks.

Try this

CAMERA
From: XeniaSt (truth@YashuaHaMashisch)
125 05/23/1999 19:07:28 PDT


To: Sarah
I will note that book for future purchase.

Personally, I am a devout (try to be, anyway) Christian. I believe my many transgressions against the Father have been "covered" by the propitiary sacrifice of a Jewish carpenter who offered Himself as the Ram in the Thicket to substitute for the judgement that a sinful Isaac like me rightfully deserved. I show gratitude, in one way, by defending (in what little way I can) his nephews and nieces and cousins, God's Chosen.

If I should be considered a "Righteous Gentile" in the tradition of the Judaic Faith, it would not be for anything like, say, delivering 1100 Jews from the gas chambers. My "educational" efforts pale by comparison, but they are what I can offer, for now. :-)

Shalom.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
126 05/23/1999 19:24:54 PDT


To: XeniaSt
Thanks... that looks great... bookmarked to "favorites". FLAME usually had a great historical context, though, which I really valued. Hopefully we can track them down.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
127 05/23/1999 19:29:59 PDT

To: Uriel1975

"You may go on defending the Murdering Dictators surrounding Israel,
and turning a blind eye to Hamas in-country terrorists machinegunning
Israeli Jewish schoolchildren, but I demand that you admit that
I have said all along"

Again, the topic of this post is not Murdering Dictators, or In-
Country Terrorists, but the systematic denial of the rights of
an indigenous people by the majority in power.

The two are linked only by those who wish to justify one wrong
with another, and obfuscate that issue which is the topic of
the thread by bringing up another.

Which is, Israel is founded and maintained by force, and uses
force every day to remain in existence, and then has the gall
to complain about how the rest of the world often expresses dislike
for it and its people. Many of whom, though not all, would truly
like to live in peace with their neighbors but can't because
of people who want to keep the pot boiling.

Who use selective interpretation of the Bible, freely quoting
those sections which hint at a secular nation, while rationalizing
or totally ignoring those passages which call for moral rectitude
regardless of who's the titular head of the PLO.

There's nothing in the Bible, in other words, about how any moral
precepts don't apply if you don't happen to like Arafat.

If people don't like Arafat, then let them go after Arafat. Don't
beat up someone's cousin because you don't like him.

That's the gang mentality and it has no place in today's world.

That's all for today from me.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
128 05/23/1999 20:44:43 PDT


To: agaviator
The fact is, "somebody's cousin" gets beat up because the terrorist sociopaths manipulating Palestinian opinion for the last thirty years convinced him is was a good idea to toss a molotov at a cop.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
129 05/23/1999 20:54:58 PDT

To: Uriel1975
A very close friend of mine recently wrote me about a relationship she had built up over the years with a bedoin neighbor of hers. (This is in the Judean Hills.)

One day she dared to ask her how is it that the PLO and Hamas are able to sucessfully cultivate these young men that are so willing to commit suicide and blow themselves up along with as many Jews as they can manage to take with them.

She was told their method is to early on identify a young boy that has potential. They offer the family money to have him join the group. Little by little they inculcate him with an intense hatred of Jews and brainwash him to be willing to give his life. Then, when he is being readied for his suicide mission, he is told that if he refuses to go through with it, the Hamas will murder someone from his family. So with a combination of brainwashing and blackmailing these boys blow themselves up. (More usually than not, they are the only one to die in the often botched plans.)

BTW what was that cryptic reference to some Jewish carpenter? Could you elaborate?

And on the 'rightous Gentile' subject, I was just asking if you kept the 7 laws that Jews believe that non-Jews must keep.
From: Sarah
130 05/23/1999 21:06:29 PDT


To: Sarah
Jesus of Nazareth was a carpenter, trained by his dad Joseph, for maybe 10 or 15 years before he began his Ministry work. As I do not know the 7 laws which are required of Gentiles (though you are welcome to enlighten me), I have always put my Faith in His Propitiation for me. I apologize if the reference was "cryptic", I assuredly did not mean it to be.

I hope others on this Thread will read the story you have related as regards your Bedouin friends. Perhaps it will open some eyes. Perhaps.

The Fight for truth about Israel and the Jews never seems to end.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
131 05/23/1999 21:14:15 PDT


To: Sueann
"You have made it obvious that you do not study the Bible....Israel is god's special group of people. Get your facts straight."

I thought the article was very informative an accurate. I know some Palestinians and also have read quite a bit of history before and after Jewish occupation. I must say you are definitely using emotion and not reason concerning the plight of the Palestinians. Of course nothing I could say or prove would ever change your opinion. Your belief in what your Pastor tells you (in lieu of questioning what he preaches, like the Bereans,) is gospel.

First of all the Jews you say are "God's special group of people," do not have a ounce of Hebrew blood in their veins. their bloodline (ashkenazis, decendants of Gomer) but are mongel-turkin origin. Around the first century AD.,a kingdom of Khazaria(Southern Russia) adopted the religion of Judaism.. There were political and economic reasons for this decision. (If you really thirst for knowledge I will follow up later with their reasons to convert.) To condense this..over the years they were attacked by the Rus and other northern tribes and a lot of the Jewish converts migrated to Poland and other Slavic countries, and eventually into northern Europe and America. (please don't confuse Sephardic with Ashkenazi Jews who were in Europe several centuries before.)

So the question I must pose to you..if God's chosen people are the Hebrew's, then who are these people who have been migrating and entering Israel over the past 50 years? Now I know you are going to flame me, but please use fact and not emotion in your argument.

BTW..If you doubt what I say (and I know you will) please go to your local library and check out several Russian history books. Most of them will give only a paragraph or two, but will cover the conversion. Some older ones will go into more detail. Also a more detailed account is a book called "The Thirteenth Tribe," by Koestler.

Also,I do study the Bible.
From: mqg25 (mqg25@aol.com)
132 05/23/1999 22:16:36 PDT


To: mqg25
Khazaria adopted Judaism around the 8th Century AD. There wasn't much of a Khazaria in the 1st Century.

Numerous Jews from the Eastern Roman Empire fled before Muslim repression and Byzantine inequality to settle in Khazaria. They intermarried with the Khazars, much enriching Khazar "bloodstock", if you will, with Jewish blood. As the Khazars power waned, many moved West, where they intermarried further with Jews who had lived in Europe since the Western Roman Empire, and then Further intermarried (to an extent) with the Sephardim of Spain and the Western Mediterranean. Far from "not having a drop of Jewish Blood" (I am laughing out loud!), as these former Khazars (already partly-Jewish) continued intermarrying with European Jews long after the fall of Khazaria, they were certainly "Judaized" ethnically to an extent indistinguishable from the rest of the European Jews whose families lived in Western Europe since Roman Days. The Jews who have emigrated to America were Jews, the Jews Hitler murdered were Jews, The Jews of Israel are Jews.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
133 05/23/1999 22:28:51 PDT


To: Uriel1975
These promises of God to Israel were conditional. If the Jews had accepted the conditions offered by the prophets when they returned from exile. Because they persistently refused the condition of prosperity was never realized. Consequently the combination of heathen nations could not come down upon a people dwelling in the prosperity indicated. Jews were given two chances for obedience - one when they left Egypt and second when they returned from exile. They continued with their sacrifices but their hearts were not right before God. When Israel rejected her Messiah, the nation forever forfeited all claim to the blessings promised in Ezekiel 34:12-31. These promises were then transferred to the CHristian church and were to be fulfilled in principle in connection with this spiritual body. A local political kingdom would no longer be the center of the spiritual kingdom. The new adherents would be scattered in all lands. Their capitol would no longer be an earthly Jerusalem -they were to anticipate a heavenly. These will be fullfilled in the new heaven and the new earth. They would have met a literal fullfillment after the Jews returned from Babylonian exile if they had met the conditions God set down.
From: Frenchie
134 05/23/1999 22:33:56 PDT

To: arch1
Too bad CNN cameras were not around in July of l938 when Irgun terrrorists killed 76 Arabs by setting off bombs in markets and other public places. In l938 BenGurion said "we are the aggressors and they defend themselves" As to WW 2 - 12,000 Palestinians enlisted in the British army to help fight the Nazis. Palestine a country of only 2 million people, accepted more Jewish refugees than any country in the world.

If there is any open-minded person reading this thread I would like to suggest the book "arabs and Israel for beginners" by Ron David-it is about 200 pages but covers the whole history of the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

What has been done is done - I am not an anti-semite-I do not advocate pushing Jews out of Palestine - I only advocate the right of return for the Palestinians along with compensation and the restoration of their lives and dignity. THey existed in Palestine for thousands of years. There were l,900 years of Jewish absence from the Middle East.
From: Frenchie
135 05/23/1999 22:50:24 PDT


To: Frenchie
You're a little behind the times in your Bible reading. The prophecies of Ezekiel to the physical and ethnic Nation of Israel have been being fulfilled for the last 50 years. Just as a snippet:

Ez. 37:21-22a "Say to them, thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will take the Sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel"...Ezekiel is pretty much chronological in order. This post-dates the Diaspora (prophecied in Ez. 35-36) but pre-dates the latter days Invasion of Israel (Ez. 38) and the Messianic Kingdom (Ez. 40). It is the physical, political, modern Day Nation of Israel, which God has re-established just as He planned. Don't try to get on His good side by claiming He said something else, He has been quite clear.

And your claim of 1900 years of Jewish absence is laughable - regurgitated anti-Smitic bile. There have been Jews in Palestine, as a substantial ethnic Group, throughout the Diaspora. I have read in depth studies of the ethnic populations of Palestine over the centuries, you obviously have not. Jews have alomost always been the largest single group in Jerusalem; of late, the majority, but always there in substantial percentage.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
136 05/23/1999 23:08:25 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Pot calls the kettle black part 1.

Whenever Israel is criticized about anything, this is the first result: the critic is on the side of the hook-nosed oil sheikhs, camel jockey terrorists, and anti-democratic dusty ayrabs while the Chosen have a nice democratic apartheid that only discriminates against subhuman goyim welfare cheats like Arab Christians and Arab muslims.

Let the guy get on with his ethnic cleansing -- oops, I mean "redeeming the land" -- now that there's a sheep-dressed wolf instead of a wolf-dressed wolf at the helm. We can talk about rubber-coated steel bullets and American military technology sold to China another time, we don't need to upset the poor champion of liberty here.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
137 05/23/1999 23:14:59 PDT


To: ankaboot
If you want to say that Saddam Hussein, Assad, and their ilk are testaments to the Muslim faith and Arab decency, go ahead. The Arabs of the Middle East would be better off without them murdering their own countrymen, invading Israel, and stirring up domestic terrorism in Israel by fomenting terrorists amongst the Palestinians. Jordan's run a pretty decent relationship with Israel for thirty years, Egypt a firly good one for twenty. Ditch the remaining Dictators, and Israel will be in a much more stable position to make peace.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
138 05/23/1999 23:25:14 PDT

To: zeppo
Pot call kettle black part 2 -- Attack the messenger.

The original writer must be an antisemite of one persuasion or another, in this case a supporter of ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is removing a population from coveted land by any means, fast or slow, legal or bureaucratic, military or diplomatic. In Israel it's called "redeeming the land" and is supported by such as Seagram's tycoon Bronfman, who owns much of the media so Americans never hear about the bulldozers and the tear gas or the theft of land in the Holy City by bureaucratic fiat and title fraud. And, of course, the erasure of Christianity from Jerusalem is also supported by the US taxpayer to the tune of about $6 Billion per year, unless the annual Congressional office-holder licenses have gone up this year.

But don't look for sense here, Arch1, this is also the land of the guys who can't wait for Israel to be gathered and wiped out so they can sit on a cloud throne for a thousand years while we lesser folk occupy some kind of underworld, as if America isn't already that, through the basement on morality fed to us from Hollywood.

And don't forget -- anyone who thinks Israel isn't God's own perfection must be a Nazi.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
139 05/23/1999 23:29:42 PDT


To: ankaboot
Come on back, Spider! Bump
From: astonished
140 05/23/1999 23:40:33 PDT

To: ankaboot
The Palestinians would not be in a position to claim "second class citizenship" were it not for the fact that Jordan, while still hostile to Israel in 1967, refused re-patriation of the West Bank Jordanians - "Palestinians" - to join with their Arab brethren in Jordan as so many wished. The problem was compounded by the Arab world's unwillingness to see Israel annex the Territories, under which arrangement the Palestinians could have been properly assimilated as Israeli Arab citizens with full rights and equality under the Law.

The Arab nations deliberately created the "Palestinian Problem" in the lands they lost, due to their own aggression, in 1967; the purpose - to create a permanent, hostile minority behind Israeli lines.

Incidentally, just for factual accuracy, Biblical prophecy does not say that the Jews would be gathered into Israel and wiped out; rather, that their invaders will be wiped out and the Jews of Israel restored to everlasting peace in the land, at peace with their (now militarily quiescent) arab neighbors.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
141 05/23/1999 23:43:04 PDT


To: astonished
Yup. Ankaboot says not a word about the documented mass genocides of Dictators Saddam Hussein (Arafat's ally and confidante) and Hafez Assad... whom all the Arab world and Israel would be better off without... and without whose ilk many problems could be addressed peacefully, without Hussein lobbing Scud missiles around... because he has nothing to say that will make it go away.

But you do love to hear that old-time Israel-bashing, so you'll keep coming back for more.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
142 05/23/1999 23:50:45 PDT


To: Uriel1975
I have not attacked you, nor belittled you. I am very interested in this conversation and I think Ankaboot is a smart, well informed person who generally speaks kindly. I hope he will return, because hopefully he has read this thread and might have something to say here. Masalama... Shukran
From: astonished
143 05/24/1999 00:09:39 PDT

To: Sueann
Pot calls kettle black, Part 3 -- Blasphemy against the Holy Writ of Israel.

You have made it quite obvious that you do not study the Bible. If you did, you would never have the opinion you do.

You can't read the Bible, stupid, you don't have the equipment that SueAnn does for that.

Israel is God's special group of people. God will do whatever it takes to support and defend them.

"But if you will not hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, and do not observe and do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you."

Try Deuteronomy 28:15 through 68, Bible scholar SueAnn, and see what "Chosen" means for those who forsook Jesus and subverted his people.

The Muslim people have made their choice.

Now let's try a little hate speech against the muslims, who aren't represented on this forum at all -- surprise, Folks, here I am. Ooops, SueAnn, be sure there's none of us around when you start your venom about us muslims, dear.

They have chosen to destroy Israel at any cost. They are the kind of fanatics who strap bombs to their children and send them into places to kill people because they believe that if their child dies while killing Jews, the child will go directly to heaven. How sick is that??

Well, that's pretty sick stuff, all right, but it reminds me more of nut-case Khomeini and his war with then-nice-guy Saddam Hussain, which is when stuff like that happened, and makes me think about the daily bombing raids Israel is conducting in South Lebanon while all of you are so locked on Kosovo, and boys with machine guns who go to American schools and terrorize middle America so it can be disarmed. And whatever makes you think that we cannibalize our children like that? You are one sick lady, with that nonsense, while your buddies are over there shooting Palestinian children in the eyes with those American-made "rubber bullets" with .45-caliber slugs inside, so the parents will be "inspired" to leave, and what do you know, more than 90% of Palestinian Christians have fled and your heritage is being paved over.

Would you strap a bomb to your child to kill your "neighbor". The Muslims have taken a vow to totally destroy the nation of Israel.

Excuse me, dear, but someone is lying to you, and that is a complete and total lie. No such vow would be permissible for a muslim to take, and I know, I'm a sitting judge of Islamic law. What has happened is that the Palestinian people, infected with Marxist anti-colonialist dialectical materialist doctrines and Leninist confrontational tactics, have sworn to throw off the yoke of colonialism that sits on their shoulders from the Israeli apartheid financed by American tax dollars. Christians and muslims alike, as well as others in the Holy Land, are being ethnically cleansed as fanatic settlers "redeem the Land" that God chased them off of two thousand years ago, when Jesus told them their exclusive right to govern everybody was revoked.

Also, this started when Abraham had Isaac.

No, SueAnn, it started when God took Abraham for a Friend and gave him the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. The land today called Israel was another Covenant entirely, called the Torah, which entrusted that small territory to Israel on condition that they obey God's Law that He gave them by Moses. Take a look at who has lived ever since in all the lands around there, from south of Egypt to the border of Persia, and you'll find the other sons of Abraham, and the land given to Abraham is about two hundred times as much as Israel ever ruled. And Jesus, of course, told them it would be taken from them anyway, and it was. Those over there now have as much relation to the Children of Israel as the boy who shot up those children in Colorado.

So please, do not be deceived - the PLO has long advocated the destruction of Israel.

The PLO is about as muslim as a keg of beer, and about as religious as Benjamin Netenyahu. Try again.

These people live in poverty because they have no covenant with God. The Jews do have a covenant and God prospers them. Get your facts straight before you start dumping on Israel.

Well, if you will study that Bible of yours, you will find that the muslims DO have a covenant, and it's described in your Bible pretty thoroughly, and called the Endless Covenant in which all the families of the earth will be blessed in Abraham. We lived under it for a thousand years, just as prophesied, and as a result you have federal republican constitutional government, hospital wards for segregating diseases, vaccinations for smallpox and a few other things, and surveying and algebra, just to start a very long list. Maybe you could "Get your facts straight before you start dumping on" muslims. Better hurry, 'cause Jesus, God's Word that He cast into Mary and the only perfect man ever to walk the earth without sin or error, is due back any day, while your friends in Tel Aviv are planning to raise a false messiah because they didn't like the one God sent them. And with your upside-down views, how are you going to know which is which? I'll give you a clue: the muslims are going to be with both, some with Jesus and some, as messed up as you are, with the False Messiah. But the prophet Noah told us about the False Messiah, and there are more prophecies in the mix than you can even imagine.

May God return to you the best of what you do and rescue you from delusion: those are no friends of God over there who are destroying the last remnants of Christianity in the Holy Land.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
144 05/24/1999 00:21:54 PDT


To: ankaboot
Thanks Ankaboot.. I was waiting to hear from you.
From: astonished
145 05/24/1999 00:32:55 PDT

To: ankaboot --- whoa, back, I sense common ground here...
What happened is that the Palestinian people, infected with Marxist anti-colonialist dialectical doctrines and Leninist confrontational tactics...

(I add, infected in these doctrines by the the Politics of "Arab Socialism" such as that espoused by my least favorite Middle Easterners, Assad and S. Hussein - "Arab Socialism" being derived from the godless Communism of the USSR and thus a curse to religious muslims)...

Hmm, this sounds like something we can agree on. See, Arabs on Israel's borders are not necessarily a recipe for disaster - Jordan's done great and Egypt's coming along well... But hostile Arabs, that's never going to work. I'll make a deal --- You cure the Palestinians of what I agree to be a Marxist infection, and then I'll start saying that the Jews of Israel should back off. But not until. As long as "confrontational Marxist Leninist" strains infect the passions of the Palestinians, there will be no peace. An armed Arab can, in peace, be trusted as much as any man. Why wouldn't they? An armed Communist, on the other hand, is a danger to anyone; I wouldn't advise the Israelis turn their backs on such for a second.

The PLO is about as muslim as a keg of beer...

Yeah, I always thought Yassir Arafat was a poor reflection of the culture that gave us modern medicine, algebra, and Omar Khayyam; Yes, please ditch that American-murdering terrorist sociopath too, and then maybe we can get somewhere without the use of rubber bullets.

Willing to discuss common ground?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
146 05/24/1999 00:43:28 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Pot calls the kettle black (part 1 again): Nasty ayrabs.

Build lasting peace in the Middle East. Encourage the annexation of the west Bank by its rightful owner, Israel, and the deployment of Israel's thermonuclear warheads on Israel's Jericho IIB Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and a warning that they are willing to use them.

No, no, Uriel, Israel doesn't have any nuclear weapons, remember? Mordechai Vanunu isn't rotting in an Israeli jail for taking pictures at Dimona and giving them to the British press, and none of the fissionable materials that vanished from the nuclear processing facility, and it wasn't really several tons like the records show, ever went to Dimona or South Africa. Keep your lies straight, for crying out loud -- do you want to wind up under the Mossad guns like Victor Ostrovsky?


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
147 05/24/1999 00:43:50 PDT


To: astonished --- come back, astonished, my mistake
I have an apology I need to proffer: As the Thread started to heat up again, I did not take the time to re-read your previous postings, which were, in fact, reasoned and in search of common ground. I had you confused with posters such as agaviator and KingOfIthaca (Who's the worst of the bunch now that "boney" is gone, good riddance) who have not IMO been willing to do more than decry Israel without looking at Her situation.

I was hasty and presumptuous, I don't (on a quick refreshing) see a single thing thus far you and I were really going at hammers and tongs about. I have been several hours on other threads, and I get sick of rank anti-Semitism without reference or compromise. I included you in that (which does exist), and that was wrong. I apologize, and hope you are sticking around if ankaboot and I are going to start talking now....
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
148 05/24/1999 00:55:44 PDT


To: Uriel1975

Uriel, you're a man of reason and honor. I commend you.


From: trentino
149 05/24/1999 01:01:00 PDT


To: ankaboot, now you aren't paying attention.
Listen up, here I tried to proffer an olive branch on my last post to you, and now you call me a Liar. Since you obviously have not been following my position on this particular subject, I will make it clear:

I have always maintained that Israel has possessed nuclear weapons, assembled and mission-capable, since at least the early 70s and maybe as early as the mid 60s, for one reason: Because Israel has them. I have made my (I feel well-founded) belief of this clear in the past.

Now, that that's out of the way (and you are welcome to apologize for claiming I ever said they didn't have them), perhaps we can try to get that "cordial discussion" attempt going again?
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
150 05/24/1999 01:01:50 PDT


To: trentino
Um, thanks. I am humbled.

I have gotten hot and heavy on this thread at times, I am pleased you should still think so. Hope I can live up to it.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
151 05/24/1999 01:08:27 PDT


To: Dr Duck
Pot calls the kettle black part 4 -- go away.

Things are tough for the Palestinians. There's plenty of land in Jordan which is hugely Palestinian by percentage.

Who cares about orchards hundreds of years old, families that have lived there for centuries as peaceful Christians and muslims and observant Jews, ancestral ties that bind entire towns and regions? The Chosen came to a land without people for a people without land, to make the desert bloom, and those they weren't able to terrorize off before they bulldozed their homes and orchards can just leave before they get "transferred" under the new Plan Dalet or some such relocation program. Go to Jordan, where so many refugees already went. Wasn't there a program in the early forties that was called a "relocation" program? Is that where they got the idea that since they've moved in, everybody else has to move out?

The Arabs have 4-5 sacred holy cities yet they insist on greedily taking the only Jewish one as their exclusive possession.

From the time that Jerusalem was liberated from the Roman occupation until 1948, with the exceptions of a 100-year period when the Holy City was in the hands of the Crusaders and a 100-year period when the Holy City was in the hands of the Fatimid (shi'ah) regime in Egypt, pilgrims of both the Christian and Jewish faith, as well as muslims, visited the Holy City and tended their respective holy places. But now, cemeteries lie beneath freeways, fanatic settlers live in all the "quarters" of Jerusalem and surround it on every hill, and white American muslims are ushered through the Allenby checkpoint and showered with hospitality while the black American muslims who try to visit the Holy City are blocked and turned back, and the Land is being "redeemed" by the elimination of anything non-Jewish as fast as the bureaucrats can demolish new housing and old churches. Obviously they should all just go away and stop giving the Chosen people so much hassle.

The Arabs have plenty of money collectively to house every Palestinian in Israel on a grand scale. Yet Israel is supposed to feel guilty for not taking better care of a people whom their own religionists and blood brothers have refused to take care of for 50+ years "merely" out of greedy and arrogant political demands, desires.

Israel? Feel guilty? What does the Bible say about that, ever?

There would be an easy way for the Palistinians to become enormously blessed of God--to bless and serve the children of The Promise.

And there's the "Final Solution." America -- a pot of goybeans, ready to serve, let's all just bow down and be the slaves to Israel, which alone has Divine Commission to rule, and forget that Jesus told them they're fired, he wasn't even a good Jewish boy but look at what that woman did to disgrace her family with that carpenter.

So hey -- all you non-Jews living in and around "democratic" Israel -- why don't you just go over there somewhere?


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
152 05/24/1999 01:13:23 PDT


To: ankaboot
Well, the above post is certainly your view of things; You are entitled to your view. There's a whole bunch of Israel-loving Israeli Arabs living as full citizens of the State of Israel who wouldn't see things in that harsh a light; or, for some, even see it in that light at all; But you are entitled to your point of view.

My curiosity is whether you intend to respond to the "common ground" I sought in what I agreed with you on, or even with my calling you to account for your (probably unintentional, though certainly pejorative) misrepresentation of my views on Israel's nuclear ownership.

If you have no intent to engage in a discussion of what we can agree on, then I suppose you will go on posting your first-person, one-man's-only point of view; but in the absence of dialogue...

One guy's opinion is all it will remain.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
153 05/24/1999 01:27:33 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Pot calls kettle black, Part 5 -- it's all racism.

I have no interest in whipping up hatred of Islamic people.

Oh, I really, really believe that, after reading my Sunday paper and watching prime-time television, where I'm a harem-scare'em chauvinistic brigand oppressing invisible, imprisoned, ignorant, voiceless, faceless, downtrodden women, getting set to veil the women, close the movies, kill the pagans, and force everyone to pray five times a day because I'm inherently anti-democratic, anti-Western, and anti-American. Your kind, benevolent, complimentary recognition of our God-fearing customs and society and devotions is sooooo reassuring.

But I will do everything to refute the vile Lie which equates Israeli responses to violent rebellion compared to Arab Dictaors (who the Arab people would be better - and certainly safer - off without!) who murder their peaceful opponents by the scores of thousands and seek the genocide of the entire Israeli Jewish Race.

Rebellion -- that would be refusal to accept that you are the only people Chosen to rule, right, and everybody else should just knuckle under as God says in your version of the Books that your prophets say you forged right there in Jeremiah, and no one else really is qualified, right?

And those "scores of thousands" of "peaceful opponents" -- would those be the children of Iraq who just "refuse" to depose Saddam and have to be bombed, or is it the people of south Lebanon who just refuse to get out of the way when your buddies use it daily for a bombing and missile range?

But what is this "Jewish race" stuff? Can I say that, refer to you-all as a "Jewish race"? Or is that another privilege reserved to the people of the Golden Calf and the Temple? Then are the muslim peoples the "Arab race," being also sons of Abraham?

Guess again, fella. Do you recall how many sons Noah had? Have you read Genesis 9:27 lately? Guess what time it is, and let's have this nice talk about "race" again sometime, okay?

It says "God Opens to Japeth" -- after God Closed His Mind to Adam which produced the Fall. Are you ready for this second Flood, Mr. Nice "Jewish race" Guy?


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
154 05/24/1999 01:33:21 PDT


To: Frenchie
"My wife and I recently visited the land where Jesus walked, and we discovered that bitter zoning disputes in our home town of Orange are petty squabbles when compared to Israeli settlements on the West Bank and the struggle of Palestinians for civil rights and self-determination." (New Haven Register)

I wonder where New Haven - and this jerk who writes for them - would be if Brit colonialists hadn't made a "settlement" out of Native American land.
From: glc1173@aol.com (glc1173@aol.com)
155 05/24/1999 01:43:18 PDT


To: ankaboot and Uriel1975
Will ya'll take a look at this article and this connecting article?
From: Yosemitest
156 05/24/1999 01:47:29 PDT

To: ankaboot
Well, if you're looking for someone to defend Clinton's bombing of Iraqi civilians, you're looking for the wrong guy. But as to the other deaths in Iraq, Hussein's murder of tens of thousands of Kurds is part and parcel of the Marxist-Leninism you earlier decry. Assad and Hussein and all the "Arab Socialist" cabal are the villains who introduced the Muslims of the MidEast to pseudo-Socialist governments; Their murders are in keeping with the system.

By way of comparison, the Israelis attacked a strip of Southern Lebanon factually known for its being used as a staging area for terrorist murder raids into Israel. They had no intention of allowing that to continue, and I don't blame them.

But yes, I do speak unapologetically of a Jewish "race". I will define them, loosely, as the ethnic group that Hitler sought to liquidate; Always remember that avoiding just such a Holocaust was why the Jews sought, and were promised, a Homeland (with Arab signing at the time) in Israel with the 1917 Balfour Declaration; The Holocaust which occurred proved conclusively the absolute necessity of establishing the very Homeland the British and Arabs had promised.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
157 05/24/1999 01:48:51 PDT


To: RLK
Pot calls kettle black, part 6 -- Lebensraum

"Israel is a small over-crowded country that needs additional land"

Oh, that's rich. Rip off twenty BILLION dollars in loan guarantees for Soviet Jews who never show up, subsidize settlements in Occupied Palestine and beat the drum for a hundred years to entice Jews to emigrate from countries where they're established and comfortable and safe to go to a war zone, and then cry about needing more land for the Chosen people. Hey -- I've got an idea ...

How about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the southeastern part of what used to be the Soviet Union? Right on the Chinese border, west of Chabarovsk, where refugees from Hitler went on Soviet trains? Do you think maybe there's a little room there? How many nations would you like? You have at least three, the ex-Soviet Oblast, Palestine, and the United States, any more on your list?


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
158 05/24/1999 01:56:12 PDT


To: ankaboot
I take it that it escaped you that RLK's post was not literal, but sarcastic in tone. But hey, if you want to make fun of him too, that's okay by me, I guess.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
159 05/24/1999 02:00:25 PDT

To: The Documentary Lady
A breath of fresh air ...

"Has Israel ever kept a deal? I've had to go back and take a look at years of agreements, public and otherwise and I gave up trying to find one that they kept. If they did, it was so long ago that it really didn't matter."

You have to go back before Solomon, and then it was half-hearted and stiff-necked. Then when the builders and the stonemasons and the rest of the lodge-craft guys came down to help build the Temple, the leaders of the Children made a deal to throw out the Plan of God, just as all the Prophetical Books say. It looks like they've kept their bargain with the devil, but they sure forgot their bargain with God.

But He hasn't. You can read it in Deuteronomy 28:15-68, and weep for the lost, because God keeps His deals. And He made one with Noah, too. And He NEVER breaks His Promise, unlike those people for whom you couldn't find a single act of fidelity. Covenant? Try Jeremiah 8:8. They couldn't even keep their scribes doing their job without corrupting the record of the promises they broke. Or Ezekiel 13:

"Woe to those fatuous prophets who follow their own frame of mind and have not seen anything. Your prophets, O Israel, are like foxes in the ruins: You have not gone up to the gaps, and you have not built a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle in the day of the Lord. They interpret falsely with sham divination the statements of the Lord's revelation -- and the Lord has not sent them -- while they await establishment of the Word. ...

"Then My Hand will be against the prophets who expound the deception and those who approve The Lie. In the council of My people they will not be; and in the book of the House of Israel they will not be; and into the land of Israel they will not enter; then you will know surely that I am the Sovereign Lord."

Don't look for fidelity from a people who don't know what it means.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
160 05/24/1999 02:29:58 PDT


To: All
We have a problem that started 3,000 years ago. The Jewish people, originally from what is now Iraq, were supposedly given the land of Israel by God. Unfortunately, the Jews are the only people in the part of the world who believe it. Everybody else in that part of the world, plus 1,000,000,000 Mohammadans throughout the world don't believe it. The Palistinians think they got screwed and will remain so as long as there is one Palistinian remaining in the world. There is no solution for this problem.

Added to this is that while it is considered barbaric to be antisemitic, our bible teaches anti-philistinism. To the Palistinians, which is modern pronunciation of Philistine, this is an insult.
From: RLK
161 05/24/1999 02:32:46 PDT


To: ankaboot
Don't look for fidelity from a people who don't know what it means

Well, at least you are keeping your even-handedness and objectivity about you. Not pejorative and biased in the least.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
162 05/24/1999 02:45:37 PDT


To: RLK
Look what the Palistinians, which is modern pronunciation of Philistine, will do to the Jewish people. And then look what the Jewish people will do to themselves.

Read Luke 23:28-34; then Luke 23:1-23; then read Luke 21:7-36. And finish with reading Revelations 11:1-14.
From: Yosemitest
163 05/24/1999 02:53:38 PDT


To: Uriel1975

But yes, I do speak unapologetically of a Jewish "race". I will define them, loosely, as the ethnic group that Hitler sought to liquidate; Always remember that avoiding just such a Holocaust was why the Jews sought, and were promised, a Homeland (with Arab signing at the time) in Israel with the 1917 Balfour Declaration; The Holocaust which occurred proved conclusively the absolute necessity of establishing the very Homeland the British and Arabs had promised.

The Jews got a homeland due to the vicious attack on them by Hitler and Nazis.The whole world felt guilty about it and dumped a Christian problem into the laps of the Arabs.
BTW I read "From Time Immemorial" and it is a book the absolutely refutes the idea that the Jews stole valuable land from a large native population.When Jews first started in Palestine in the late 1900's, the land was swampy,barren ,undeveloped and sparsely populated.When the land started coming alive due to Jewish efforts,Arabs immigrated from Syria and other places.The *Palestinians* who were *evicted* by Jews had not lived there any longer than the Zionists.....no long term claim.


From: zendo7
164 05/24/1999 03:44:33 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Willing to discuss common ground?

The only ground I stand on is truth, and you seem to have a smattering here and there among the falsehood you have imbibed. I don't score people for being deluded, or for being vehement about what they believe. But the fact is that the Arab armies did NOT invade, they stood at the borders like a bunch of wimps and watched as Jerusalem was gutted and the Patriarchs for the first time in all of history agreed on something: to seek international protection for the Holy City from the invading armies of Israel. Furthermore there was never a moment in this century when Israel was the weaker: from the time the munitions factory came from American scrap yards and was assembled underground in Israel, to now, Israel has always had the upper hand. In 1967 you have your facts on backwards, too.

Now should you wish to educate yourself on these things, and leave off the F.L.A.M.E. nonsense that is built on the same kind of lies that Israel's claim to ownership of the universe -- and you -- is based on, outright falsification and forgery, then I can direct you to the right magazine with the right book list with the right prices. And when you go to Scripture, you should go to all of it, and see what Jeremiah and the other prophets after Solomon say about the integrity of the Books that you inherited and added to at the Nicene Council in 325 AD. And I've got another Book that should interest you in the event that you are, as you say, a believer in Him. But that's not on-topic here, which is the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, which is racism pure and simple, institutionalized and implemented by the same kind of bureaucracies and military/secret police treachery the Israelis learned in Nazi Germany from the Nazis. So let's talk about that.

Maybe we have some common ground -- I don't know your heart, I can't read your mind. But from what I read of your hand, we're going to have to go quite a ways, and I'm not moving, I'm standing on holy ground right here in the US of A, and this is where God's Plan is hottest on the planet. Or coolest, take your pick. I like the posts of Astonished, and some of the others on this side of the issue as well, perhaps better than mine because I'm hot. My children are propagandized at school, I am slandered and my sisters endangered by the media, and my people are made out to be some kind of spook that never walked on the face of the planet anywhere other than in Temple Israel, with their bargain with the devil to betray Jesus, deny his Word, slander his mother, and mislead his people. God's angry about that and I'm not going to be anything else.

What I want is what God gave Jonah and the people of Nineveh, which was the ONLY time He sent someone to a people who turned all the way around and returned to Him. And Jonah (or was it Job?) was not a Jew.

And I'm a descendant of Japeth. So are you. But I think you've picked the wrong tent of Shem to abide in, and Jesus will be along presently to tell you that. What we're seeing is God getting ready to make His Chosen People a parable for all time: a parable about betraying God and deceiving the world of men, systematically and with malice aforethought, for three thousand years. And what that gets them, described in detail in Deuteronomy 28.

You think Hitler was bad? Hitler was a punk. Wait until the American people find out how badly they have been taken in, and for how long, and how. I hide Jews, I give them sanctuary, and my hand is firm. But I wouldn't even want to be around when God sends His overpowering scourge. It looks like it's going to be a Holy mess.

It's hard to see an olive branch when you've got an Uzzi in your right hand and deception in your left. Remember the USS Liberty, which was a deliberate and calculated way to remind Johnson of what happened to Kennedy, and the fact that American warplanes were ordered to return from their rescue of that craft. I'm not going to forget, and when all the Arabs are gone and dust, I'm going to be asking Him for justice.

The only common ground is truth. I suggest you find some. I'd love to make some peace, it's what I'm here for. But not with the Deceiver, not with the False Messiah, and not with those who do their work for them unknowingly or otherwise. The "Final Solution" for Israel is that it rule the world with an iron rod, and goyim -- that's you and me -- be damned, disenfranchised, and deluded. You're working on that. I can't help you. You have to see it yourself.

So pray, already. God will Open His Mind to you as He has done for others already. And the Jews of Temple Israel? Hey, man -- where are they? They stand a slight chance. But you're betting on the wrong horse, what you don't know will kill you, or worse.

So that's my peace offering: a reminder and a warning. And I have no power to do you good or ill, I'm a nobody with a keyboard, I don't run squat. But He does. So talk to Him. He's always listening.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
165 05/24/1999 03:44:33 PDT


To: Yosemitest
"Will ya'll take a look at this article and this connecting article?"

Been there, done that. How in the world would Garner Ted Armstrong know anything about God's Plan?

All of your Bible-based rhetoric is NOT Bible-based. You think it's about Isaac and Jacob, others think it's about Abraham, but both are mistaken: It's about God, and His Plan for the return of ALL humanity to Him and His Knowledge and Mercy. There's no way to stop Him, no way to fool Him, no way to change what He intends and has always intended to do. And it's not about Shem at all, it's about everybody. That's your problem, you think it's about you and you think that I think it's about me, and it's not.

Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia is the notion that you (or those of your communion) are uniquely and divinely anointed and appointed to save the world, or a remnant, or to usher in a new world or a new message for the faithful, while this world falls away into the Fire. This all-time favorite tool of deception is today a main event in media circuses and more often fatal. Don't get caught in it.

And when the False Messiah shows up, which is just a hot minute before Jesus does, leave him the hell alone and stay away. You'll see him, everybody will. That's been known to us since Noah. And when the dust settles, he'll be gone, along with all those who take out after him on the idea that he's someone else they're waiting for, and that applies to Jews, Christians, and muslims, all of whom are waiting for one or another messianic figure.

And Garner Ted Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God are old stories to me, I read it all when the old man was still going around the world toppling governments for his lodge. It was a nice reminiscence, but there's nothing there. His day, too, is done. Just like it says in Deuteronomy for the Children of Israel, and as Jesus said, too.

So hold onto your hats, boys, here comes the Second Flood. And you know what? You don't have a boat, and I don't either. So you'd better learn to swim in the ocean of His Mercy and walk on the Water of His Knowledge, because He's opening up the floodgates, and no one on the planet can do a thing about it. Just like He said.

And boy, am I thirsty after all this Fire below. It's about time. I plan to be among the first to Drown.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
166 05/24/1999 04:11:32 PDT


To: ankaboot
Well, of your entire post, I am able to agree on two things:

I am a child of Japheth, and
God is always listening.

Oh, and also that the treatment of Arabs in particular and Muslims in general is, indeed, often incredibly biased and pejorative in this Land. But I'm not sure that you that you would accepy that sentiment from me as being sincere (albeit it is); more importantly, it's not as though I can go out and change 30-odd years of stereotyping with a hand wave, so it is spitting in the wind, anyway. That being said, I honestly bear no ill will towards the Arabs and Muslims any more than I do Indians and Hindus; You may or may not believe it, but it is true. Both represent Faiths which I just do not happen to believe to be True, although the Muslims are far closer (I am sure you do not like that overall view; yes, I could sugar-coat it, but that is what I believe. I have zero hatred of Islam, because I am utterly apathetic to its claims. At least I am being straitforward.)

That all being said, my apathy in no way extends to characters like Assad, S. Hussein, or Arafat, the (by far) primary sources of my vitriol. If every single thing you believe of the Jews were true, it would not change the atrocities these men have committed for power and in defiance of the laws of God. That is a simple fact. I do not forgive them their crimes because I do not believe that they have changed. You are equally entitled, of course, to your own respective views of various Israeli leaders. I felt establishing a little common ground that does exist might be fruitful; there's no reason to pretend that there is currently a lot (and may, or may not, ever be).

But that is a discussion for another time. I do thank you for responding to me, and will thus hope we can take up...well, whatever various matters... another time. For now, I will be signing off as soon as I see your farewell, should you write one (before I get bored and sign off anyway!)

So, Till next time, for now... what's a term we can agree on... Godspeed.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
167 05/24/1999 04:14:11 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Well, of your entire post, I am able to agree on two things:

I am a child of Japheth, and
God is always listening.

Well, that's enough to make a start.

Oh, and also that the treatment of Arabs in particular and Muslims in general is, indeed, often incredibly biased and pejorative in this Land.

That's three.

But I'm not sure that you that you would accept that sentiment from me as being sincere (albeit it is); more importantly, it's not as though I can go out and change 30-odd years of stereotyping with a hand wave, so it is spitting in the wind, anyway. That being said, I honestly bear no ill will towards the Arabs and Muslims any more than I do Indians and Hindus; You may or may not believe it, but it is true. Both represent Faiths which I just do not happen to believe to be True, although the Muslims are far closer (I am sure you do not like that overall view; yes, I could sugar-coat it, but that is what I believe. I have zero hatred of Islam, because I am utterly apathetic to its claims. At least I am being straitforward.)

That looks like six or seven or eight, I've stopped counting, and I don't doubt what you say, I'll take it at face value with you as I do with everyone else, I'm a sucker that way, but that's my way, I refuse to doubt anyone's word until I have solid reason and evidence that I shouldn't. I think that has to be the way anything has to start to get anywhere.

I also have no love for renegades and apostates, of any stripe. It's one thing to discover a little more truth, it's quite another to prostitute what one might have to screw people with. The guys you mention are problematic.

And for the record, I didn't say you had ever said that Israel had no nukes, I don't think, I was just playing into the bull we get from Tel Aviv.

I do thank you for responding to me, and will thus hope we can take up...well, whatever various matters... another time.

"Sons of Japeth" and "God's listening" seem enough for me. I start responding at the top of the Thread and when I get to the bottom I reload. So it was a while before I saw your post, I answered it immediately. Sure, I'll lock horns with you, that's what this is about at Free Republic, as far as I can see, a contest of ideas and truths. I have all the ammunition, but that just makes it fun.

So, Till next time, for now... what's a term we can agree on... Godspeed.

And God's peace for you, and His Mercy. As I've said before in other Threads, God's putting Jews, Christians, and muslims, and other Folk as well, in paradise together. I think we'd be smart to start putting up with each other now, for the long haul, just in case we get there.

And I'm going to bed, it's 4:30 AM and I've been on line for almost eighteen hours. I don't know why I let you people put me through this, I think you're all out there figuring out ways to make poor ankaboot stay up all night.

But I'll get even, you'll see, I'll talk you all under the table. You'll go out and start loving one another just to get away from me.

That'll work.


From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net)
168 05/24/1999 04:45:30 PDT


To: agaviator
"The country of Israel itself owes its existence to terrorism,which Menachaim Begin and others were quite well-versed in."

Ever study the means by which the U.S. was established? Guerrilla warfare played a prominent role.

Menachem Begin was the George Washington of our people. Read his memoir "The Revolt" - and learn something, things vital for a dissident (we are all dissidents in Klinton's Amerika, aren't we?) to learn.

LIKUD FOREVER.
From: glc1173@aol.com (glc1173@aol.com)
169 05/24/1999 04:58:31 PDT


To: Frenchie
Could you please answer one question that bothers me the most about this post. It may be off the point, but I am curious. What will James Carvile do after your boss and that pig he's married to are out of the WH?? One week after Barak gets into the driver seat and the Clintoon Spin Machine hits the NET.

I have seen the poor palestinians at work and if they die slowly over an open fire spitted like pigs, I would pay $5 per hour for the chance to watch. (I was a tourist, not a combatant. I saw school kids blown up, markets destroyed and houses set on fire. It was a bad month, I guess. Arafat and Clintoon love killing children, wonder why that is?) Barak proves to be Isreali and Clintoon will have set the cat among the pigions.
From: jaw jacker
170 05/24/1999 05:25:12 PDT


To: ankaboot

Greetings, Anka.

Here's why the land-grabbers in Israel NEED terrorists and why
they signed with them in the first place.

Although there are some in that country who would truly like to
live in peace, there are others who want "lebensraum" for their
"master race." So it's necessary to placate the rest of the world
by signing an agreement, then finding an excuse to not honor the
commitments.

Arafat is the perfect instrument for this. He's been a terrorist
all his life, everyone knows this, and especially the Israelis.
So by signing a deal with Arafat, every time Arafat doesn't cave
in to anything the Israeli government wants, they can start saying
"It's because you're a terrorist, nyah, nyah, nyah."

Pretty clever, no?

And excellent reference to Deuteronomy, here it is for those who
don't read the Bible or if they do don't understand it.

"Of you who were as numerous as the stars in the sky, only a few
will be left, because you would not hearken to the voice of the
LORD, your God."

Deuteronomy 18:62

Is this country in question listening to the voice of their God,
who "Desires mercy, not sacrifice?"

"But he hit me first!"

Never mind you can't blame an entire people for the actions of
one of its members.


From: agaviator (AGAviator@aol.com)
171 05/24/1999 06:26:30 PDT


To: ankaboot
UHHHHHHH, PERHAPS you can stretch your mind enough to wrap it around a hypothetical...

PRETEND that the construction some of us have on things is accurate. PRETEND that for whatever curious reasons ALMIGHTY GOD HAS chosen to uncommonly bless His Friend Abraham's seed--partly as a gracious gift to His Friend and partly to show forth His own Glory and Majesty.

PRETEND that He meant absolutely every word in The Word and that where remotely possible, every Word will be fulfilled rather literally [probably in our lifetime by all the evidence].

PRETEND that you are still alive and observe all this. WHAT WILL YOUR comments and questions be then?

I'M TRULY INTERESTED in your substantive and thoughtful answer to such a question. It could go a long way to helping me understand your thinking, values and perspective.

Thanks for your post. I may ponder it a bit more before I reply to the points--though I'm not sure you wanted a reply.
From: Dr Duck (POSTCARDScanBpersonal)
172 05/24/1999 06:30:11 PDT


To: jaw jacker
PROPHETIC types are saying Barak will cause an untimely, earlier than scheduled war--especially without lots of prayer--but, of course, God is able to work all things to His priorities.

All things considered--does seem like things are speeding up on the slide to destruction.
From: Dr Duck (POSTCARDS_K_N_B_PERSONAL_N_IMPACTFULbutnotifnotsent)
173 05/24/1999 06:33:17 PDT


To: Dr. Duck
UHHHHHHH, PERHAPS you can stretch your mind enough to wrap it around a hypothetical ...

Well, let me get out the Jaws of Life here ...

PRETEND that the construction some of us have on things is accurate.

And when we're done you can try the shoe on the other foot? But it turns out that this is the only fantasy item you list, so we'll see whether the shoe fits later.

PRETEND that for whatever curious reasons ALMIGHTY GOD HAS chosen to uncommonly bless His Friend Abraham's seed -- partly as a gracious gift to His Friend and partly to show forth His own Glory and Majesty.

Don't need to pretend there at all, I bear witness that that is so. That's a given, and fundamental to every thought I have in this area. So naturally the question comes to mind ... why didn't you already know that?

PRETEND that He meant absolutely every word in The Word and that where remotely possible, every Word will be fulfilled rather literally [probably in our lifetime by all the evidence].

Undoubtedly all this is so as well, and there is no such thing as a "remote" possibility with God, every prophecy is fulfilled perfectly and undeniably, and His Signs are always perfectly and undeniably clear and show the way, His wonders inspire awe that none can avoid, and mystery is the same old satanic thing it always was because God doesn't mystify us, He guides and informs us with perfect clarity and does so totally and comprehensively. There aren't any questions, all the answers are in His Word or pointed to clearly by Him in ways that He clearly identifies.

I thought I was going to have to stretch for some kind of hypothetical -- is all this "hypothetical" to you?

PRETEND that you are still alive and observe all this. WHAT WILL YOUR comments and questions be then?

I am alive, I don't need to pretend about that, and I have observed almost all of it, and I don't need to pretend about that, and I'm watching it daily, and I don't need to pretend about that. So I guess you're seeing what my comments are "then," since we're talking about now, and I don't have questions.

Gee, I thought we were going to have some entertainment and fantasy here. Where's the "stretch" for my mind that you offered? This is all elementary stuff.

I'M TRULY INTERESTED in your substantive and thoughtful answer to such a question. It could go a long way to helping me understand your thinking, values and perspective.

I'm watching as God brings His Plan to fruition, fulfilling all remaining prophecies, before my eyes on a daily basis. I suppose there are those who need to pretend, I don't, it's right there in front of me. Rather awesome, I would say, and everything is lightning clear, just as He says it is.

What I'm finding fascinating is how He has woven all three Houses of religion in Abraham together into a single tapestry of revelation, positing one here, another there, and another there, so that each gives the faithful within them an opportunity to do right and serve Him and reach His Mercy, while giving each of the faithless and hypocritical every opportunity to turn to Him but not obstructing them from doing that which will take them to the Fire. And in that machination of the three Houses moving, each according to the light (or darkness) the people there allow to enter their hearts (or don't), He is providing every possible avenue for the people who don't know of Him or His Word or His Mercy to see it all around them and coming straight toward them to where they can reach out and touch it.

It's all quite Majestic, really.

Thanks for your post. I may ponder it a bit more before I reply to the points--though I'm not sure you wanted a reply.

My posts are words that will wind up in the trash, don't bother with them. Ponder instead on His Creation, and on His Word, and on His Books that He has given you for your guidance and salvation. I say this because obviously you don't see me in your Books, and we are surely there, and always have been, praying shoulder to shoulder, celebrating the Jubilee every year instead of every fifty, serving in His Kingdom with single-minded devotion and turning away from the false things of this world.

Like pretense.

So maybe you can find someone else to "pretend" that God Is Almighty, All-Knowing, and Merciful -- we don't have to do any pretending, because we know Him. He's a Good Friend. In fact, He's the Only Friend we need.

I mean look at what He's doing now, bringing His Plan for Mercy for all humanity to fruition in our very lifetimes and before our very eyes and in our very lives -- how can we not be grateful for being allowed to be here when He does that?

But since you thought I might have to "pretend" all this, and obviously have no basis whatever for that because it merely reflects the fact that you know nothing at all of us muslims, maybe we're not watching the same stuff. Tell you what ...

How about if you pretend that I know exactly and precisely what I'm talking about and that what I'm saying is just and no less and no more than what I'm seeing, and that the proof that God's Word is true is right before my eyes?

Or is that too much of a stretch for you?


From: ankaboot (muslim@earthlink.net)
174 05/25/1999 00:42:55 PDT


To: Uriel1975
"The 1917 Balfour Declaration, which Arab leaders signed, promised the Jews the entire Transjordan Province. The State of Israel, the Territories, and The Whole Country of Jordan as a homeland for the Jews."

Here is the entire text of the Balfour Declaration:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The original declaration was not published as was the norm with government statements: it was contained in a letter sent to Lord Rothschild by Arthur Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary. The Declaration itself was written by Leopold Amery.

Nedless to say, no Arab leader ever signed it.
From: John Locke
175 05/25/1999 01:09:58 PDT


To: agaviator
It could be said that:

THE GREATEST LUNACY

IS TO BE EXPOSED TO ABUNDANT WARNINGS AND EVIDENCE

AND TO REALLY SEE NONE OF IT.

I also fail to see how YOU are planning to insure that the earthquakes, meteors, volcanos are going to obey your

KEEP OUT

NOT IN MY BACK YARD

signs.

This gets back to how do we know what we know; what we think we know.

1. How good have you been at prediction in your own life about your own behavior and the results therefrom?

2. How good ahve you been at prediction in your own life about the behavior and related consequences of those around you?

What is your percentage of hits on #1 and #2?

What is your motivation--and what might be your unconscious motivation in getting up your dukes against such prophecies?

It might be reasonable if only one derranged person muttered such things while on a drug induced high.

Such is far from the case. Even the better Christian prophets have a way above chance hit rate and many are approaching 100% the more mature and purified they become.

Then add in Scriptures.

--Add in Mayan; Hopi; Navajo; etc. predictions from centuries ago. --Add in scientific findings indicating probabilities of similar things.

...

...

At what point do you decide that your blindness is WILLFUL DENIAL?

Do you have any criteria or checkpoint to measure yourself against?

If not, how do you know that what you think you know has any serious probability of being true?
From: Dr Duck
176 05/27/1999 00:11:02 PDT


To: Uriel1975
Talk to most any Israli soldier--certainly officer in some of the major battles--and you will probably hear tales of supernatural assistance in the battles.
From: Dr Duck
177 05/27/1999 00:28:47 PDT

To: Dr Duck
I've only talked to one Israeli soldier in my life, he fought in 1967. I never asked him about that sort of thing, though.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
178 05/27/1999 00:47:39 PDT

To: Uriel1975
A number of such officers were atheist or agnostic prior to their experiences. Afterward they renewed their religious practices and again believed in the existence of The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
From: Dr Duck
179 05/27/1999 00:55:51 PDT

To: John Locke
Hello, John, time to counteract your vile lies which are unbecoming your screen name... with as little regard for truth or history as you demonstrate, you should certainly choose another.

From Near East Report's Myths and Facts: A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: Emir Faisal, son of the acknowledged leader of the Arabs, Sherif Hussein, met with Dr. Chaim Waizmann and other Zionist leaders during the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. They signed an agreement which, "mindful of the racial kinship between the Arab and the Jewish people", declared that "the surest means of working out the consummation of their national aspirations is the closest possible collaboration of the development of the Arab state and Palestine." (to be given as a national home to the Jews under the Balfour Declaration)

The Agreement looked to the fulfillment of the Balfour Declaration and also called for all necessary measures "...to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through a closer settlement and extensive cultivation of the soil."

On March 3, 1919, one day after Weizmann presented the Zionist case to the peace conference, Emir Faisal wrote to Felix Franfurter, a noted Harvard law professor and Zionist leader, declaring:
"The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement....We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home....We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is nationalist and not imperialist. Our movement is nationalist and not imperialist. And there is room enough in Syria for us both.
(Under Turkish rule, "Syria" over-arched the administration of the "Palestine" district.) Indeed, I think that neither can be a real success without the other."

The facts of history are clear. In 1919, The Arabs supported the Zionist cause wholeheartedly, out of a brotherly effort to free the Near East from Imperialism and establish real Nation-States, including the Jewish Nation-State of Jewish "Palestine". In 1948, no longer needing the Jews to further their cause, they betrayed their former allies, stabbed the Jews in the back, and invaded the fledgling nation of Israel on the very hour of its birth (which they had not just agreed to, but endorsed!). Thus beginning a long running series of constant and unbroken Arab defeats by the outnumbered and ougunned State of Israel.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
180 05/27/1999 01:10:49 PDT


To: Uriel1975
...the Anti-Semitic US Clinton-loving Media.

Now you've totally lost me.

I live on the edge of a Jewish neighborhood (the one that produced Midge Decter), which contains secularized Reformed Jews, immigrant Russian and Ukrainian Jews, Lubavitchers, Messianic Christian Jews, and who knows how many other varieties, all under a Brooklyn-born Jewish mayor. The major local think tank whose events I attend is run by a Jewish neoconservative.

Yet I have never heard anyone here speak of this "Anti-Semitic US Clinton-loving Media", which your debaters on this thread would maintain is owned lox, stock and barrel by the very Jews which voted overwhelmingly for Mr. Clinton.
From: Pig's Eye
181 05/27/1999 01:15:18 PDT


To: Pig's Eye
Personally, it is my belief that the Liberal Media, with its persistent bias in favor of Israelis sacrificing land which is integral to their security, and their treatment of Orthodox Judaism with the same disdain as Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Muslims (I do not count messrs. Arafat and Assad among such muslims of faith)... disdain for any who are unrepentant in their belief of an Absolute Real Creator, are anti-Semitic in effect if not intent. To strip disdain Jewish religious Orthodoxy and strip Israel of her defenses is anti-Semitic in its outcome, even when supported by atheists who are of Jewish descent. It affords the Jews of Israel no defense against annihilation.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
182 05/27/1999 01:27:50 PDT

To: Uriel1975
Well, that might explain the closing of the kosher Old City Café across the street from Macalaster College. Lotsa Clinton lovers there.
From: Pig's Eye
183 05/27/1999 01:38:32 PDT

To: Pig's Eye
LOL. Now you are just being silly. My point is, if dismantling Israeli security leads to another Holocaust, what good will it do for Liberals to say "but I never intended to be anti-Semitic" after the fact.
From: Uriel1975 (Uriel@DiesIrae)
184 05/27/1999 01:50:59 PDT

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