Can you refute the article?
From: blue light (emailname) *
04/30/99 12:56:18 PDT

Can you?
From: M² (emailname) *
04/30/99 13:01:11 PDT

Saul had sinned. When he was confronted with that sin his reaction was to:

1. Deny the guilt

2. Belittle the error – not that bad

3. Shift the blame

4. “But for a good cause”

5. “Lets put this behind us and move on”

The text for these actions:

Deny the guilt I Samuel 15:13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.

Confrontation with physical evidence

Verse 14

And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

Shift the blame, Belittle the error, But for a good cause

Verse 15 - 19

And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

Deny the guilt, belittle the error

Verse 20

And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

Shift the blame, but for a good reason, a good cause

Verse 21 - 23 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. But for a good reason, for a good cause “my own weakness…”,

shift the blame

Verse 24

And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Forgive me and let’s move on with the things of the office of King

Verse 25 -29

Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Forgive me and let’s move on with the things of the office of King Repeated

Verse 30 - 35

Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD. Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

In comparison with Saul’s rebellion against God, the record of David’s reaction to confrontation with sin is enlightening.

II Samuel 11:13,14

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
From: ARTIOS (wdpowell@geocities.com) *
04/30/99 13:02:05 PDT

It is interesting the Christ--during the 3 days his body was in the tomb--went into hell and "took captives, captive." He brought out all who wanted to come out from the previous generations.

We also don't know what happened to the spirits at the moment of death in each individual case. I do know from my RELATIONSHIP with Him, that He's altogether Good. His Justice is moderated by His Love. I do know that HE is MORE THAN FAIR. He hasn't promised that life is fair but that IF we have a realtionship with Him, HE will BE WITH US IN the unfairness of life. That's a GREAT deal. When He says that the sufferings of this life are not WORTHY to be compared with the glories of Eternal Life, I have to believe that HE knows MORE than I do about all that. I choose to believe his knowledge and version over my own vain imaginings hands down.

It is entirely easy for me to believe that He instantly took such babies to be in Paradise due to their lack of living long enough to willfully sin.

He did make a great point that we ought not mess with those He calls chosen. He decreed that to Abraham, His FRIEND, He would make of Abraham the father of countless children. AND that those who blessed those children would be blessed and those that cursed them would be cursed. The fact that God chose to bless Abraham as a sign of their Friendship is incredible to me. Precious. Cute. Wonderful. What a trip! Offspring to number as the countless stars. Just as kind of a thank you to Abraham for the Friendship. What a Gracious, Loving God. What a Father. What a Daddy. Neat.

You can disagree with God having the right to choose. You can disagree with who He chose. You can disagree with the gift of honor He chose to give Abraham. But unless you have figured out a way to be bigger than God, I suggest you banish such thoughts from your mind instantly and certainly never publish them again.

Logically, for you to have a proper perspective to objectively and fairly judge God, YOU'D have to have a position, perspective ABOVE GOD. I just don't think you've made that grade. I have been wrong before. But I'm not saving any apologies on this one. Nor holding my breath.
From: Dr Duck (JudgingGodIsVeryTrickyBusiness) *
04/30/99 13:05:48 PDT

God instituted death as the penalty for sin. NONE OF US, in direct contradiction to your claims, is "innocent." Every one of those Amalekites deserves to die, just as we do!

God has the prerogative to decide how and when they shall die. If He chooses, he can use humans as instruments for that task. This is often done without our knowledge. The situation given here is a more rare example, in that God made it a test for the Jews to in asking them to obey His will.

C.S. Lewis was once an atheist much like yourself; I imagine he made much the same arguments. If you read and consider his books, such as Mere Christianity, you'll find your arguments are not against God but for Him.

Oi vey, I always find the comments of anti-Christians in their "reviews" at amazon.com so shallow and tragic...
From: Marathon (ebliever@earthlink.net) *
04/30/99 13:14:46 PDT

[snip]

In other words, why didn’t God simply take out his wrath against those individuals responsible for the attack in the first place?

I suggest you spend a little time with a concordance before posting cruft like this. If you look at Exodus 17, you'll discover that Israel destroyed Amalek during the Exodus as well.

My moral compass tells me that it is patently immoral to murder thousands of "children and infants" whose only crime was that of being the distant relatives of some group of people who had attacked another group of people hundreds of years earlier.

You'd have no "moral compass" at all, if God hadn't given you one.

The Amalekites were under a divine curse (see Dt 25:19 and 1 Sam 28:18). Why? I don't know why, and neither do you. The Bible doesn't say. Something you can see very clearly however, both from the Bible and from just looking around you, is that God and nature always punish sins, and that that punishment is not necessarily restricted to the guilty. (Nor, BTW, will it be restricted to the guilty when the sins of America are punished.) Unbelievers like you respond by complaining that "God is unjust." At some level, I think this is a nonsensical complaint -- your idea of "justice," to the extent that it is truly just, came from God. To complain that he doesn't conform to it is a bit like telling Beethoven that he's conducting one of his own symphonies incorrectly. It's like the clay complaining to the potter.

At a more mystical level, as a Christian, I would respond that if "God is unjust," He is unjust in a most just and humble manner, because He did not hesitate to subject His own Son, who was infinitely more innocent than any Amalekite baby, to an ignominious death on a Cross as punishment for our sins. Does that offend your "moral compass," as well?
From: Campion (emailname) *
04/30/99 13:35:43 PDT

I would be happy to "refute" the article, and the answer is quite simple:

Gods ways are higher than our ways. To put it bluntly, it would be a true statement for God to say to you or me, "anything you can do, I can do better." Does the writer realize he is taking the position of judging Gods motives, judgement and moral "compass". It is God who grants whatever morals a person has left in thier moral compass.

Now, I don't claim to have the mind of God, but let me give you the issue from a different perspective that may clarify why the "slaughter of innocent children" might be the correct thing to do.

First, We don't know exactly how this brief life on this planet fits into the scheme of the eternal reality, only God does. Second, "death" means only the end of the usefulness of this earthly vessel that all of us will occupy for a relatively short period of time. Finally, we don't have a clue, really, as to what the real purpose of our existence is. God, as our creator, does.

Are you old enough to have experienced a time of serious physical or emotional suffering? If it happened a while ago, have you noticed that you still have the capacity to be quite happy and full of joy on occasion. My point is that suffering is temporal. When I prepare for a 200 mile bike ride or have to punish my kids, it can be extremely painful for me, but the pain results in tangible benefits.

The point is that we were created by God and we are not our own. We were bought with a price, the blood of Jesus.

Now if you don't believe this, that is fine. Everyone has free choice in this. However, just because I don't believe I will fall if I jump off a building, doesn't make my belief true. Likewise, if the foundational beliefs of Christian phylosophy are wrong, and you believe they are wrong, well that's ok. On the other hand, if you believe they are wrong, but they are correct, then your fate would rest with what they say happens to those who do not believe in and on Him and His death and resurection for the remission of sins.

So... It God ordering the killing of an entire group of people, including children may sound unjust to you, but then again, your reasoning is VERY limited. It becomes nothing more than the opinion of the created, which is at odds with the creator. Who wins? By the way, this very scenario is being played out by Satan right now. He doesn't believe the prophesy either. He thinks he can change the "future" and win. And he's a heck of a lot smarter than you or me. But in this case it makes him even more wrong.
From: ROBROY (ROB_WELLS1@HOTMAIL.COM) *
04/30/99 14:28:15 PDT

First I could go in and compare pagan civilizations to Christian ones and compare their level of torture since on the surface that seems to be the basis of your arguement. You seem to imply that pagan cultures are better because of your evidence that torture existed in some Christian societies.

You First falacy is that you have no data about your pagan societies. If you will check with history you will find that pagan societies have tortured and killed their populations on an order of magnitude larger scale. For instance Hitler killed and tortured millions while the ones you referred to deal with hundreds.

That aspect has been debated and proven many years ago so I will not re-iterate here. All atrocities are atrocities.

What I would like to handle is the real falacy of your supposed arguement. You say "Some Christians were bad, therefore God is Bad." You equate the early church with God.

I must admit I thought that too at one time in my life. Then I learned that Religion is what man does. True Christianity is what God wrought in Christ Jesus. Very different.

Below is an excerpt I wrote in the preface of a work I did on the names and order of the books of the Old Testament.

In assessing the value of early church fathers, one must keep in mind their foundations as described in the scriptures:

Acts 20:29-31

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

II Timothy 1:15

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

By the end of the first century the only apostolic procession was by these grievous wolves. We must look to the scriptures themselves, not the church tradition laid by grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing.

There is no scriptural authority for the modern terms “Bible” either. In fact, in the time of Christ the common terms were:

Ø The Scriptures or The writings (Matthew 22:29, Acts 18:24)

Ø Holy Scripture (Romans 1:2)

Ø Sacred Letters (II Timothy 3:15)

Ø The Four and Twenty Books (the true number of books from Genesis to Malachi)

Ø The Reading (Nehemiah 8:8)

The early Church after the time of paul and even at the end of his life did not represent God. If you want to know God you will have to get to know the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
From: ARTIOS (wdpowell@geocities.com) *
04/30/99 16:01:33 PDT

LOL. Are you accepting the premise that there is a personal God who even does these things? "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Romans 9:20)

Sheesh. If you want to truly know, ask God to reveal himself. Hint: Don't attempt your own agenda... the God who formed you can't be scammed.
From: Thinkin' Gal (Lot dwelt in Sodom.) *
04/30/99 17:53:50 PDT

Ex:17:16: For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Here, Moses tells us of the warning, that the Amelikites will always attack Israel. It is what they did, they did not meet Israel with peace, they met with war on their minds. God pronounced judgement against them that day, and also, to teach Israel to trust in Him too, they would always fight the Amelikites. It was to train the Israelites, to teach them to be on their guard, to trust God, otherwise God would have had the Israelites attack and destroy the Amelikites right away.

Num:14:43: For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

Here, Moses tells of what will happen to the Israelites because they are not right with God. They are in sin. And, God will use the Amelikites and the Cannanites to judge Israel. Num:14:45: Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah.

So, we see, it is more than once the Amelikites attacked Israel.

In Deuteronomy 25:17: Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;

18: How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.

19: Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

We see here that God pronounced judgement against Amalek and his decendants. Isn't God holy? Would He kill for absolutely no reason at all? Amalek refused to honor Israel, Amalek was to be punished. Does God know the future? Would God kill innocents for fun? Wouldn't those that are truely innocent of sin go to heaven anyways? Isn't heaven better than Earth? Aren't children better off in heaven with Jesus than you or me? You know the answer to that one.

Judg:3:13: And he gathered unto him the children of Ammon and Amalek, and went and smote Israel, and possessed the city of palm trees.

Judg:10:12: The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand.

It is only till here that Israel had any victory over Amalek:

1 Samuel 15:2: Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

4: And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

5: And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.

6: And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.

7: And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

8: And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

9: But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

Israel disobeyed God here, and they fought the Amalikites from then too.

I guess the moral is: Obey God, he knows more than we do!! And, When God pronounces judgement against a nation, (Like the US maybe soon?), who are you to tell God what is right and wrong?
From: RaceBannon (jimban@snet.net) *
04/30/99 20:58:53 PDT

1Sam:15:2: Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
From: RaceBannon (jimban@snet.net) *
04/30/99 21:01:54 PDT

I also am impressed by a people who read Scripture and reflect on what they read. To summarize what you have shown me:

God allowed the Amalak to murder from the rearguard and told the Children what would come; allowed a long time of demonstration so that the Children could see that as God had singled out Amalak, so Amalak justified His Word against them, convincing them and convicting himself. Then He sent Saul, at the command of Samuel, to carry out His Promise on Amalak, specifying exactly what Saul was to do. And instead, Saul preserved the king and what would have been sacrificial animals had God not ordered them slain, thinking this proper and meet until realizing from Samuel that he had missed the point, that he was to show no mercy upon those who had earned His Wrath, and that Amalak was to be made a parable for the nations by utter destruction without any interest in their herds, their crops, or their places of gathering; and Saul in his turn was to be made a parable for the conduct of kings and others who received from God a commission and a command, that it be kept and carried out to the letter. Did I miss something?

How many times, in how many tongues, to how many tribes, has God sent His patterns by which He draws on us His Mercy? Breathes there a soul to whom no reminder has come? Yet we find in His great provision of diversity both a way for every soul to reach Him and a difference by which to deny that another may find another path to Him. And rather than be the symphony of praise that He orchestrates by assigning one a flute, another a drum, and another to turn the page, we dwell on one-note and plaintive tunes of sorrow for another's joy. How easy it is to sound in chorus when all reprise the same Song: while He has woven a masterpiece of Majesty to soothe the hearts of every one of His creatures all together, while some possess no eye, nor ear, nor imagination of Him, and instead we are to them His Reflection and His Mercy.

Why is it that some seek judgment on America, and America is His? How has Jonah been forgotten, and what He gave to Niniveh? Where is the one who recalls the Promise to Noah, of another Flood, and where are those on whom the water rises? Is it not you, are not you of those who are not called Chosen?

Look to yourselves and see whether God would send you on Amalak or Nineveh. He has not given dominion for any other than His Purpose, and His Purpose is as He has written: "My Mercy overtakes My Wrath." So rather than dwell on that for which you claim on a Promise to come, think on what it is that you promise to Him, and to whom that trust is due. It is not an accident that the way to say "Thy Command" in the Semitic tongues is "America."

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net) *
05/01/99 18:32:35 PDT

That's good Ankaboot, but there is something more to what you have observed!

1 Samuel 15:17: And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?

18: And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

19: Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

20: And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

21: But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.

22: And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23: For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

See what it says in verses 22 and 23? Obedience is the key, to do what is right, not what feels right! Saul was maybe the first Liberal King in Israel's history!

There is another commandment like this, in...

1Jn:3:23: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jn:5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn:5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now, that's good news!
From: RaceBannon (jimban@snet.net) *
05/01/99 18:53:23 PDT

I don’t know about you but I have a real problem with this.
That is understandable. You appear not to have read much more of the pertinent passages and/or
grabbed some reference works on the subject.
But I'm not convicting you...a lot of good, faithful Christians (and I'd guess Jews too) would have problems with this.

The Amalekites who originally attacked Moses and the Israelites had been dead for hundreds of years.
If the Lord was so bent on punishing those guilty of attacking Israel in the desert, then why didn’t he do just that?
I guess you are part of the "live in the moment culture" that prevails in most of the modern Western World.
The descendants of the Amalekites probably lived in hopes of eventually finishing off the Jews and vice versa.
As Abraham Lincoln said about slavery, "some issues can only be settled in blood."
And yes, this higher power, the Lord Jehovah could have snuffed out the Amalekites with some natural disaster,
but apparently He (or She, or It, if you please) decided that this was a job for the Jews to undertake...and
as the narrative reveals, a test for Saul (which he fails).
You could say that "The Lord" did the job, through the action of his people.

Of course, I don't really need to invoke the Bible to figure out why these people needed wiped out.
I'll just fall back on my Southern background. It sounds like the Amalekites "needed kilt".
Otherwise, we would probably be living in a far different world.
Hmmm, if the Amalekites had survived, maybe we could have had religion based on sex orgies and
child sacrifice. Think I'll take the boring Judeo-Christian deal we have now.
All this is just my silly personal opinion. Flame away if you wish and enjoy it.
From: VOA () *
05/01/99 19:04:18 PDT

Amalek and his tribe had no fear of God. They wantonly and brazenly attacked God's chosen people, the "race" through which God would bring Messiah. In waging war against Israel, Amalek had declared war on God. God was justified - by his own word - in executing judgment against the Amalekites for their grievous sins against him. God's instrument in carrying out this judgment was Israel.

You think the way God dealt with Amalek and his people was terrible? Man, you ain't seen nothing yet! The point of the story is to instruct us just how awful the wrath of God is! The very fact that you react so negatively to it testifies to that! But instead of repenting, you mock God by calling on us to justify him to you! If you're half as brave as you are foolish, I dare you to ask God himself to enlighten you!

Now, here is the moral of the story you fail to grasp:

The disciples had heard of these tragedies that befell their countrymen, and remembering the Commandments, had asked Jesus whose sin has caused these terrible disasters to befall them. Jesus answered, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

In this "age of grace" since Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, God does not use nations as instruments of his wrath. The next time he pours out his wrath on sinful, stubborn man for declaring war on his chosen people, his instrument of judgment will be none other than Christ himself, who will return in glory to establish his kingdom. Read the book of Revelation for more on how God will judge those who oppose him. In it, we see what hapens to every other nation that declares war on the chosen people of God. But don't take my word for it. Read it yourself!

You have a choice. It's as clear as the nose on your face. Reject God and face his terrible wrath, or fear him, repent, and be saved from it.

If nothing else, the moral of this story is not how unfair God appears, but how utterly puny and foolish you appear in thinking so.

I leave you with this parting shot:

Will the hands you fall into be those of a loving father, or a righteous, impartial judge? It's your call.

Later...
From: Stingray (phil.lowe@cwix.com) *
05/01/99 20:51:58 PDT

How easy it appears to be to forget how a child of two runs to the task given him by a parent, that is easy for him to do and clear and understandable, so that there is no question in the child's mind that he will find the parent's pleasure! And for a fully developed human being the pleasure of obeying God is so much greater, or would perhaps seem so, because obedience to His prescript has the additional dimension of benefit to all others, not to just oneself or one's parents or family or tribe.

"There was a man who had great possessions; and in his territory he had desert land that only bore unfruitful things. And so, as he was walking out one day through such desert land, he found among the unfruitful plants a plant that had delicate fruits. Whereupon he said 'Now how does this plant here bear these delicate fruits? Assuredly I wish not that it be cut down and burned with the rest.' And having called his servants he made them dig it up and set it in his garden. Even so, I tell you, that our God shall preserve from the flames of hell those who work righteousness, wheresoever they be." Many are those who enter and know no door nor wall that they might know they have entered, but continue to cry for justice which is the last thing they should want as they imagine it.

"Knowing them by their fruits" tells me what I see in a perpetual invitation to His House with its many mansions. How Admirable is He Who builded by Abraham a House and in it raises His Kingdom not once, nor twice, but thrice, and keeps among His creatures those who continue always to say to all "You may enter," knowing one, or another, or three. For the sake of such as you God will forgive of those who failed their promise ten for each that you raise to Him, for in you is fulfilled what they were prevented from doing by those false to Him in headship. And Saul will be pleased to lose his throne by comparison with what awaits those whose crime against humanity is the more grave, of leading astray the flock of those who seek His Pleasure, and barring the sincere from finding the ways to His Mercy.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net) *
05/01/99 22:50:15 PDT

Should this in fact be the case, then what he has done is stimulate the preservation of the stories of the Folk and the transmission of knowledge and understanding. Surely his first premise, that he is able to judge those actions of an All-Wise God that he himself does not in any way understand, is contrary to both reason and sense, as well as Scripture which he does not fathom, as indeed it is unfathomable to all in varying measure as all bear witness. So who is endangered by his contention save himself and those also with not reason nor sense nor faith?

It appears he wishes to be a disagreeable person. It seems to me that this is not a rarity, but is a choice that many make for one reason or another. And so he has chosen to live in contention and discord. And it is his choice to bring his contention here in hopes of discord, and his discord here in hopes of contention, and to find others of his kind who make themselves disagreeable. Is not what we have been given better than that?

With what tools have we all been charged to call to our Lord? With wisdom, and sound counsel, and reason and sense and good manners reflective of His Love. Is it otherwise? Or do we render unto others in kind and make ourselves of disagreeable character? Remember that those deceived do not know their Deceiver, that he has them, or the demon astride their shoulders, who whisper to them in sugared tones and intoxicate them with darkened fantasy. Where is the key to unlock their eyes but in Scripture? And therein also the lock, binding each to his fate. Is not the better wisdom to call them to His Word rather than away?

Or do we only call those we like? But God feeds him and gives him breath and relieves him of his bodily burdens, leaving him only with the burden of disbelief as he has chosen, which grows into despair and leads to certain death in and into an uncertain future.

Or drive him away as you like: his devil is an offense, as all such devils are. But contention and discord and disagreeable are his life. Should he be allowed to find it also here, and satisfying?

And I have been reminded of these things as I read this Thread, and thank you all for the reminder.

From: ankaboot (muslims@earthlink.net) *
05/02/99 19:02:35 PDT

"Thumper collective?"

You posted an attack on Bennett, the Bible, Christians & Jews using the Bible, then you disparage people for using it to refute you? From which source would you suggest we provide the answer you seek...the Sears catalogue? Hustler? Guns & Ammo? A bubble gum wrapper?

An argument of convenience is hardly the basis for a sound debate. But then, most here suspected that's not why you posted your article. And - in truth - the only reason I replied was so that your baseless assertions did not go unchallenged. Having challenged them, I leave you to your smug ranting. This "thumper" has more important things to do.
From: Stingray (phil.lowe@cwix.com) *
05/02/99 19:17:10 PDT

From: LUKE21 (emailname) *
05/02/99 19:19:55 PDT

(From JediFU)
Surrendered?
Nope, just bored by the tired rhetoric of the thumper collective.
I was hoping one of you could do better.

Hmmm...we have a savant who posts drivel in order to get flames?
And then he sticks around reading responses that he knows will bore him?
And finally...he keeps returning and then complains of boredom!

I think most clinical psychologists call this obsessive-compulsive.
Maybe Luvox would help.

From: VOA (emailname) *
05/02/99 19:30:11 PDT

Many of the people you see writing on this thread would gladly die for their faith. They love the Lord with all their heart and will not stand still for attacks that they have recourse to answer.

Here's an example of the kind of "thumper" whom I'm sure JediFU is probably glad isn't around to "thump" anymore.

Later...
From: Stingray (phil.lowe@cwix.com) *
05/02/99 19:36:42 PDT

I challenge you with a "win-win" proposition - for you.

Every day for 30 days when you wake up, say "God - are you there?" That's all; no more than that. Then go on about your day as you would normally, giving no thought to your morning "prayer."

Wait for an answer. If you receive no answer, come on back and tell everyone what a fool I am. That will be a win for you, and a "loss" for me.

If you do receive an answer, that's a win for both of us.

Care to give it an honest try?
From: logos (logos@searnet.com) *
05/02/99 19:55:59 PDT