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I have up to this time taken these accusations on faith.

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Clearly they would have to be either confirmed by the principles or proven before any actions could be considered.

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But if they prove true, you honestly don't see any reason for LF to act?

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And you would not support any such action?

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Flag to: Randal, WindRiverShoshoni, Kudzu, OWK, john deere

I have become a personal friend of WRS, via PM's and telephone....( in case anyone has doubts )

I agree, that under strict application of the Forum policy, that WRS is liable. Kudzu, is not because PM's belong ( are property ) of the recipient...as has been shown many times previously.

So far, as I've haven't been able to even get into LF to try to follow the discussion, over multiple threads....threre, may indeed, be a real question concerning true liability....in that Musa has only made an effort to conceal his identity on this sole forum.

JD has to make a judgement about how far and wide this shield extends....and it affects us all.

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How did they find out who he was when he became Zaphod?

I don't know. We only know what we have been told.

My main point is that before we call in "the state" -- the moderator/banners -- we need to get a real handle on this and see whether this is nothing more than a family squabble writ large on this forum, in which case it is none of our business.

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Frankly.. I think they'd fess up if asked, and tell you there was nothing wrong with what they did.

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By the way, what is Galt's Gulch and why am I posting here? You can't see it on the regular latest posts. Am I in the belly of the beast?

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And, to be honestly paranoid, who's to say that these same posters, when caught between a rock and a hard place, wouldn't provide personal information to a law enforcement agency in order to save their sorry selves?

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Absent an admission, what would constitute "proof" for you? The results of an impartial investigation group? Who would you suggest would be suitably impartial?


As I've clearly already stated, I would be most satisfied with an admission on the part of the principles.

Short of that, I believe that the burden of proof shifts to the person making the accusations.

If he proves his case, and the actions are of the same malicious and intrusive nature that has been described, I ask whether or not you believe this to justify action on the part of LF?

I believe the facts of the case can be assessed objectively.

As for disposition of the case, that is another matter.

Biases certainly play into the matter.



Perhaps it's time to put our libertarian/ancap principles to the test.

A free-market trial may be in order.

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By the way, what is Galt's Gulch and why am I posting here? You can't see it on the regular latest posts. Am I in the belly of the beast?

Welcome to the secret forum, fabled in song and story.

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Flag to: thoughtcriminal, Randal, Elf, Carbon, annalex

My first thoughts were alike Randal's, I hate to stand on a case I know so little and only on its principle I hear from one side (no offense meant).
Even with those first details my mind is not set up.
I may blame the action, but the point is to know if LF pretends to rule our moral lives (no matter how black it can be) out of its circle.
Would those bad guys have used of any special rights they have been given in LF to abuse their victims my answer would be "yes" with no doubts. (as far as I'm sure they are given fair access for their defense, LF isn't Guantanamo is it? Where is their point of view?).
Would one tell me they knew the real identity from their victims before (former acquaintances), so called victims can't blame LF but themselves or their naiveness or their (unlucky) star.
Unless they brake LF rules (and I can't see how LF rules would apply to what's happening out of LF), there is a great danger - no matter how shocking you may find the facts - to overreact by thinking LF has a moral role that extends its border. That's how imperialism works. It always start with good intention and it ends with the arrogance to think you are the law for all and all cases.

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If one member of this forum uses LF to gain information, which he subsequently uses to harrass, intimidate, or maliciously meddle in the real life of another.. should the forum act against them?

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Zaphod switched user names with the intent of being anonymous on this forum, without anyone knowing that he was "Muslim".

WRS traced the kid's IP.

Ansar was told of this and on this forum said that he would contact his parents....

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Flag to: thoughtcriminal, Randal

Randal, I think the crime as far as LF goes happened when WRS posted that Muslim and ZBB were the same person and proved it with his IP harvesting data, naming times and computers they both used, down to identifying the OS and hard drive. This was all posted on the forum.

I never read the open forum anymore with pictures on. Never.

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I agree with you in that nothing with respect WRS is actionable, because

- The privacy policy, as articulated, is vague;
- The essential harm is incidental to LF. If WRS confirmed the identity of Zaphod and disclosed it to his father privately, Zaphod would have suffered the same harm as when the disclosure was made on LF. We can, and should, police what is disclosed on LF, but we cannot step between various family members who have a feud over who posts what on LF.

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Do you know this to be so?

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Welcome to the secret forum, fabled in song and story.

Am I now special?

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Flag to: OWK, Randal

Much as I hate to stand in the way of the lynch mob in full cry, and I understand that I will likely get flattened as a result of doing so, I would like to ask what particular interference you are talking about and what evidence you have for it, and what it has to do with LF?

The evidence comes from Zaph himself. I have been in contact with him and so have others.

Let me try and explain the sequence of events as I understand them. tc can correct me if I am wrong.

1. Muslim sent a series of PMs to Kudzu, containing intimate details of his private life.
2. Muslim suddenly had an epiphany and converted from from a pro-Muslim to an anti-Muslim jihadi overnight.
3. He came back to the forum as ZaphodBeeblebox, displaying his new form of fanaticism.
4. WRS, snooping on IP as usual, figured out that Zaph and Muslim had the same address and posted this fact on the forum. He goes to school in Toronto.
5. ansar, who knows Zaph's family in Saudi Arabia, saw this
6. Zaph let it out the forum to WRS that he had lived in many Muslim countries
7. WRS responded "you don't know what you just revealed about yourself" and Zaph let it slide.
8. WRS and ansar got Zaph's father an account on the board so that he could see what his son was saying.
9. Zaph's father called him and he tried to deny that beeb and muslim were the same person.
10 So WRS produced the PMs as proof.
11. His father wound up in the hospital briefly and his mother is heartbroken.

WRS is now trying to get him kicked out of school.

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Flag to: JustStopIt, gjenkins, SonOfLiberty, OWK

If completely true, utterly despicable.

If these allegations are found to be true and allowed to stand, I have serious doubts as to whether I will continue posting on LibertyForum.

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I have become a personal friend of WRS, via PM's and telephone

I sure that in real life WRS is a much nicer person than Zaph. That's not the point.


....in that Musa has only made an effort to conceal his identity on this sole forum.

Musa doesn't care. It's the principle of the thing.

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I agree with you in that nothing with respect WRS is actionable, because

- The privacy policy, as articulated, is vague;

The spirit and the letter of LF's privacy policy was communicated directly to WRS, the last time he was harvesting IP's and he was told not to do so again.

Claiming that this communication to him was vague is innaccurate.



- The essential harm is incidental to LF. If WRS confirmed the identity of Zaphod and disclosed it to his father privately, Zaphod would have suffered the same harm as when the disclosure was made on LF. We can, and should, police what is disclosed on LF, but we cannot step between various family members who have a feud over who posts what on LF.

The question in my mind, is whether or not a poster utilized LF as a vehicle to foment and launch a campaign of of real-life harrassment and malice against another poster, because he does not like what the poster says on the free-speech platform which is supposed to be LF.

This is bullshit behavior, and it should not be excused.

The same posters have involved themselves in it time and again.

And we get the same bullshit hand-wringing with each offense

And each time the nature of the offense grows more intense.

To condone it is to beg greater offense.

This should be abundantly clear at this point.

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I never read the open forum anymore with pictures on. Never.

Why? Please explain to us idiots.

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Ok, we start to have details. Much progress since the beggining LOL!
May someone try to present the case in a rational and concise way (even if it biased, at least so we start with something serious). Is the accusation of using some LF privilege to get info (IP etc) on a user?

Until now I think I have been asked "Do you agree to hang them, we'll explain you later why.:) )

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1. Muslim sent a series of PMs to Kudzu, containing intimate details of his private life.

Huge mistake. He must take personal responsibility for his actions that led to his predicament.

He also should look into a shrink, because he sounds like a kook.

The other two are lowlifes based on this information. We should shun them.

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WRS posts little picture gifs in his posts. Then he reads his logs to see who was served the pictures. Then he tries to puzzle out who you are.

If you turn the pictures off in your browser you are invisible to WRS.

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Hearsay that WRS is trying to get him kicked out of school.

You know this point. Not admissable...the 'victim' has only presented it as 'hearsay' and presumption. Not one shred of proof has been offered to make this true.

You are doing the 'sky is falling, the sky is falling'....chicken little routine. I, above all, appreciate the cry to ignore innuendo...it's a fun thing to play with....but, you also demanded that we not utilize it when it came to tex.

Which way should we consider it's usage?

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If these allegations are found to be true and allowed to stand, I have serious doubts as to whether I will continue posting on LibertyForum.

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